Need more help with my columbian sharks please

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daviem
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Re: Need more help with my columbian sharks please

Post by daviem »

Viktor Jarikov wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 3:15 pm Don't mean to jam it down your throat, so treat these as my thoughts caused by our exchange, not orders, God forbid...

*****

IDK the situation with tap water in the UK but I cannot fathom it'd be so problematic requiring the RO! It must be potable water that people wash their face and shower with and rinse their mouths and eyes, some perhaps drink it too.

This is extreme and it would seem it is hampering your success with your hobby. Forgive me please but not beating around the bush and in the interest of saving those fish, I'd say your (perhaps too emotional and germaphobic, maybe irrational?) view of your tap water might be the greatest danger to your pets as this appears to be the root cause of the current and most future problems of theirs.

You are also adding an undue burden on yourself and your wallet with first filtering out the hardness and then adding it back. On the plus side, you will learn more, sure, as you have already started.

I'd most strongly recommend listening to Darrel aka dw1305, who is both hand-on, supervisory, and science-level professional sewer water treatment specialist... and may take your accusations personally hahaha... little did you know who you are talking to, haha... :)
dw1305 wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 10:31 am ... My guess is that there will be an erosion of this legislation in the aftermath of Brexit, but we have a long way to go before we end with water like the Americans have to put up with.
That left me perplexed. In as few words as possible, what do you imply? EDIT: thank you, Bas! (see below) I mean do I need to worry about municipal waters in the USA?
dw1305 wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 10:31 am ... You will need advice from some-one with practical experience of these fish to tell you the values you are looking for.
These guys are born either in brackish or at the border of f/w-brackish and migrate into brackish and marine as they grow and mature. They have been shown to tolerate f/w when small but not when starting to grow. For the millions sold over the last decade, I have heard of three exceptions of 1'-2' ones grown in f/w but these are sad cases with illnesses and swift deaths.
dw1305 wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 10:31 am
daviem wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 2:27 amSeachem replenish, it states it adds hardness back into the water after reverse osmosis.
Because you are going to change a lot of water (certainly until the tank is cycled) I'd definitely use a DIY mix. You can find them for Tanganyikan Cichlids (Seachem sell one of these, but it is going to be an expensive option).
daviem wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 2:27 amAnd API GH tester to test before and after.
You would be much better with a TDS (conductivity) meter, a refractometer or a hydrometer.
Why not merely stick a bag of crushed coral in the filter and be done for a long time until it is consumed?
I don’t know but I’m not amused by you saying who you’re talking too, I don’t care who I’m talking to, maybe you should research before passing your comments, I see you quickly got worried about your water.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc. ... e-46653684

Haha

As for the big deal over using reverse osmosis trying to say I’m not right if it’s so abnormal why do so many fish stores use it? Why are aquarium reverse osmosis units made? Huh? Why does the aquarium salt companies suggest using it? YouTube is full of videos of people using it, and plenty of products to re add hardness to water, clearly their is more of a benefit getting exactly the perimeters I want that are ideal for them using clean water without chemicals or the weird residue on top and funnily enough I don’t have algae in a day or a stinking aquarium after a few hours, I rather use clean water than whatever is pumped to try and clean recycled sewer water. So thanks for your comments but god forbid I listen.
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Re: Need more help with my columbian sharks please

Post by Bas Pels »

Why many fishstores use osmosis water? I cannot say whether this is true, in NL they don't, but fact is, many, most, fish come from soft, acidic water. Softer than the potable water available.

RO with adding minerals is, I think, the best way to produce such soft water.

However, the thing is, not all fish come from this kind of water. The fishes we are talking about now, they come from brackish, perhaps even sea water. That is not soft, that is beyond hard.

During this discussion I realized that Pocilia velefera, I'm going for them today, also need brackish water, and thus are better put in hard water than soft. And the other fish, cichlids from Central America, will not mind, they would also porefer hard water. So I started hardening it, with egg shells.

Those egg shells are cheaper than crushed Coral, and availeble in all agriculture and pet shops.
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Re: Need more help with my columbian sharks please

Post by dw1305 »

Hi all,
@daviem you have asked a question, and these very kind, and knowledgeable people, @Lycosid, @Acanthicus, @MarcW, @Bas Pels and @Viktor Jarikov have tried to answer it for you, to the best of their considerable abilities.

If you don't want to listen to them, that is entirely up to you, but it is your loss, not theirs.

cheers Darrel
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Re: Need more help with my columbian sharks please

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Thank you Darrel!

Davie, I was trying my clumsy and limited best to help you with offering food for thought. As for the off the cuff joke, I sincerely and profusely apologize if I hurt your feelings by making a bit light of the situation. I found it spectacularly coincidental and ironic, and hence funny, but we all don't share the same sense of humor plus I often fail to see things from the perspective of another. Please, forgive me.

I haven't gotten worried about my water. I have a habit of wanting to learn when I hear new things and Darrel has been my teacher many times before. I am on a well water anyway and run RO on it as our well is light brackish. We make and spend up to 10,000 US gallons of RO water a day 365 days a year for water changes alone for our fishes.

Thank you for the link on the Thames pollution and the 2 million pound fine. That was helpful in seeing your prospective better. A couple dozen of such links would really solidify your case and perhaps make me soften, doubt, or even reverse my opinion. I am flexible and I try to learn from everybody.

Another point is you are new and unknown to us. You haven't introduced yourself and your hobby expertise level is unknown to us. It doesn't help choose the right position and right words when interacting. So again, please, forgive me.

Ideally, your approach of RO then back adding is great in the long run. I just didn't know your level of expertise and experience. For a newbie it might be a terrible approach.

All in all, we are here to learn, help each other, and have fun. We do aim to please but sometimes fail :)
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Re: Need more help with my columbian sharks please

Post by Lycosid »

daviem wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 1:06 am As for the big deal over using reverse osmosis trying to say I’m not right if it’s so abnormal why do so many fish stores use it? Why are aquarium reverse osmosis units made? Huh? Why does the aquarium salt companies suggest using it? YouTube is full of videos of people using it, and plenty of products to re add hardness to water, clearly their is more of a benefit getting exactly the perimeters I want that are ideal for them using clean water without chemicals or the weird residue on top and funnily enough I don’t have algae in a day or a stinking aquarium after a few hours, I rather use clean water than whatever is pumped to try and clean recycled sewer water. So thanks for your comments but god forbid I listen.
I use RO, for the record, but I mix it with tap water. I do this because I keep some soft-water fish. In my rainbowfish tank I don't use RO, and I add crushed coral.
I'll also point out that here in the US when you buy RO units they are often for drinking water, despite the fact that this is actually bad for you. So the fact that people use something sometimes isn't helpful.

We're all mostly surprised that you have tap water that is that bad. Water that humans can safely drink is normally fine for fish, but what you're describing sounds like a health hazard as well. If you were posting from some developing country I wouldn't be surprised, but you aren't, so that just sounds like your municipal water board is doing a bad job.
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Re: Need more help with my columbian sharks please

Post by MarcW »

I am not far from you in North Hampshire, near Basingstoke.

Our tap water is very hard, it comes from a limestone aquifer, as a few others have mentioned, I use rain or RO water to mix with a little tap water, usually 25-30% tap and the rest rain or RO, that is because most of the fish I keep come from soft water.

For many years I kept fish in nothing but de-chlorinated tap water, straight from the cold tap into a bucket to mix in some de-chlorinator (Prime at the time), and then into the tank. Even softer water fish were fine with this, if gradually adjusted. My L134 spawned successfully in tap water after I spent a long time messing about with the water parameters to try and make them spawn, it tuns out they seemed to enjoy some consistency!

I'm sure you know, via the website of your local water company you can get a water quality report free of charge. If it's anything like mine, it's several pages ~8 the last time I think, filled with nasty chemicals, pollutants, etc. which at first seems horrific, but is within carefully set out limits, for us to consume huge amounts of, over the course of our lives. I would suggest it is perfectly safe for your fish (once de-chlorinated), especially as they need hard brackish water.

Good luck with the fish, they seem an interesting species, and we'd appreciate updates as they start to grow.
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Re: Need more help with my columbian sharks please

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

daviem wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 1:06 am As for the big deal over using reverse osmosis trying to say I’m not right if it’s so abnormal why do so many fish stores use it? Why are aquarium reverse osmosis units made? Huh? Why does the aquarium salt companies suggest using it? ...
What the guys said above. Plus we live in the age of rampant consumerism. If they can sell you something, anything, they will. Companies pay big money to marketing research institutes to find out what and how people buy and how commercials, infomercials, fashion, culture, trends, celebrities, TV, internet, etc. affect the buying populace.
daviem wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 1:06 am ... clearly their is more of a benefit getting exactly the perimeters I want that are ideal for them using clean water without chemicals ...
It's clear only on paper. When a newbie or even a seasoned fish keeper artificially maintains the water (see MarcW's exampe above), let it be hardness, TDS, or pH, there is always an opportunity for inconsistencies and errors, which will stress the fish. The less experienced the keeper, the more dangerous this practice is to the fish. So, no, not so clearly better... In theory, yes, as I have already agreed with you above, it can be better.

Also, for the colombian shark catfish there is probably no such thing as ideal water hardness and TDS. The ideal for them would be to keep them in fresh but hard water no longer than past 6", then transition to brackish, can be light brackish, then by 12" to heavy brackish, and by 18" to marine, or some such. It's not set in stone. You could have them in full marine by 8"-12" too and be fine.
daviem wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 1:06 am ... using clean water without chemicals or the weird residue on top and funnily enough I don’t have algae in a day or a stinking aquarium after a few hours, I rather use clean water than whatever is pumped to try and clean recycled sewer water.
Film on top, algae in a day, and stink in hours? Tell us more and in good detail, if you will, about your experience and experimentations with your tap water because this seems indeed disturbing what you have been trying to tell us about your tap water... You may be right for all we know but you have to explain and defend your position, when questioned... Please, don't be offended by an unfortunate choice of my words. I meant and mean well.
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Re: Need more help with my columbian sharks please

Post by Bas Pels »

Viktor Jarikov wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 6:37 pm
daviem wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 1:06 am ... clearly their is more of a benefit getting exactly the perimeters I want that are ideal for them using clean water without chemicals ...
It's clear only on paper. When a newbie or even a seasoned fish keeper artificially maintains the water (see MarcW's exampe above), let it be hardness, TDS, or pH, there is always an opportunity for inconsistencies and errors, which will stress the fish. The less experienced the keeper, the more dangerous this practice is to the fish. So, no, not so clearly better... In theory, yes, as I have already agreed with you above, it can be better.
When I was a student, in the 1990ies, we had to work with artificial tapwater, because the studie was after the results of kopper on Tilapia. And all the plumbing was dine in copper.

Monday morning 30 ppm of copper was measuered, by the time coffee was made iot was down to 2 again.

We had a recepy, consisting of making 3 stock solutions, which were added to demiwater, and in a laboratorium one is used to doing complicated stuff. But still things got messed up - adding solution B twice, and forgetting solution C, Adding the A amount of solution B - it all has happened.

I would never suggest doing this at home, because we all have our off days, we all have forgotten the very fact there is water flowing once, or many times.

I only want to day that wat Victor mentioned is purely the truth.

When the potable water is not good, it is much easier to filter or whatever it than turning it into RO water and reconstitute it.
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daviem
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Re: Need more help with my columbian sharks please

Post by daviem »

Well, I appreciate the help, I have contacted several places regarding GH in Brackish water using RO water since I last came onto the forum, this includes different manufacturers, forums, websites etc and then calculated things such as the marine salts calcium/magnesium/potassium content in the salt I used to figure the minerals I have added back in but not counting the salt only content to see the GH the RO water has and the minerals make a higher GH than the Tap water 16GH(when tested) without marine salt, so it turns out RO water is perfectly fine to use once Marine salt has been added, Before this I had been told by 2 3 manufacturers the GH of the marine salt is already quiet high even at low salinity but I had to check myself and it turned out they are correct (of course what Im saying is based purely on Columbian sharks) the GH would probably be too low with RO water for a Marine fish at 1.006 but then so would the salt content, there does seem to be an issue though the KH isn't great at this salinity its around 4dKH, the PH does seem stable though, I did add seachem replenish before figuring out the approximate GH in the RO water but I shouldn't have added the replenish to increase the GH as it was already high enough but I was told the water probably had no GH back when I used RO water.
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Re: Need more help with my columbian sharks please

Post by dw1305 »

Hi all,
daviem wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:17 pm.........I had been told by 2 3 manufacturers the GH of the marine salt is already quiet high even at low salinity but I had to check myself and it turned out they are correct (of course what Im saying is based purely on Columbian sharks) the GH would probably be too low with RO water for a Marine fish at 1.006 but then so would the salt content, there does seem to be an issue though the KH isn't great at this salinity.....
Have a look at the composition of sea water, Lenntech is a Dutch company, so they use a "." as the thousand delineater.

Parts per million (ppm) and mg/L are equivalents, so the levels of chloride (Cl-), sodium (Na+), sulphate (SO4--) and magnesium (Mg++) all in the thousands of ppm (Mg = 1260 ppm, 1.26 ppt etc) and calcium (Ca++) is 400 ppm. Together the Mg++ and Ca++ ions are the dGH, and bicarbonate (HCO3-) 140 ppm is the dKH.

The reason the level of HCO3- is lower is to do with the low solubility of carbonates, there is an enormous buffer of biogenic CaCO3, which always maintains that level and also means the pH is "stable" at ~pH 8.

cheers Darrel
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Re: Need more help with my columbian sharks please

Post by daviem »

dw1305 wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:35 pm Hi all,
daviem wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:17 pm.........I had been told by 2 3 manufacturers the GH of the marine salt is already quiet high even at low salinity but I had to check myself and it turned out they are correct (of course what Im saying is based purely on Columbian sharks) the GH would probably be too low with RO water for a Marine fish at 1.006 but then so would the salt content, there does seem to be an issue though the KH isn't great at this salinity.....
Have a look at the composition of sea water, Lenntech is a Dutch company, so they use a "." as the thousand delineater.

Parts per million (ppm) and mg/L are equivalents, so the levels of chloride (Cl-), sodium (Na+), sulphate (SO4--) and magnesium (Mg++) all in the thousands of ppm (Mg = 1260 ppm, 1.26 ppt etc) and calcium (Ca++) is 400 ppm. Together the Mg++ and Ca++ ions are the dGH, and bicarbonate (HCO3-) 140 ppm is the dKH.

The reason the level of HCO3- is lower is to do with the low solubility of carbonates, there is an enormous buffer of biogenic CaCO3, which always maintains that level and also means the pH is "stable" at ~pH 8.

cheers Darrel
Thank you
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Re: Need more help with my columbian sharks please

Post by Fishmandavew »

Chlorine and fluorine in our uk water is not your problem, both can be overcome by a decent dechlorinator. Although, I live in Yorkshire and have never used the stuff. All my water changes come straight from the tap for my freshwater stock and have for 40 yrs. flouramine amd chloramine are our new issues and your dechlorinator won’t remove those.
That said I run RO for my marine and would suggest that if you are mixing brackish conditions for your Columbian sharks then personally I would mix RO water with hot tap (assuming no lead pipes etc) and mix with a good quality marine salt to get the desired salinity.
RO is ideal for mixing salt or brackish water when used with quality marine grade salt, replenishing lost minerals, etc.
What size are your shark? I moved mine to brackish at 5-6” and they were in full marine by 9-12”.
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Re: Need more help with my columbian sharks please

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Great input from one of our most seasoned veterans.
Fishmandavew wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:51 pm Chlorine and fluorine in our uk water ... flouramine and chloramine are our new issues and your dechlorinator won’t remove those.
May or may not be off topic but this is the first time I hear of fluorine and fluoramine as a treatment used for city water as well as the first time I hear that dechlorinators do not remove chloramine as I have always thought and read that they do, at least Seachem claims that.
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daviem
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Re: Need more help with my columbian sharks please

Post by daviem »

Fishmandavew wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:51 pm Chlorine and fluorine in our uk water is not your problem, both can be overcome by a decent dechlorinator. Although, I live in Yorkshire and have never used the stuff. All my water changes come straight from the tap for my freshwater stock and have for 40 yrs. flouramine amd chloramine are our new issues and your dechlorinator won’t remove those.
That said I run RO for my marine and would suggest that if you are mixing brackish conditions for your Columbian sharks then personally I would mix RO water with hot tap (assuming no lead pipes etc) and mix with a good quality marine salt to get the desired salinity.
RO is ideal for mixing salt or brackish water when used with quality marine grade salt, replenishing lost minerals, etc.
What size are your shark? I moved mine to brackish at 5-6” and they were in full marine by 9-12”.
Thanks, They’re 3 and a half inches and I’m having a nightmare with heaters playing up, the external filter I added to help the cycling overheating and getting the tank cycled just isn’t working I asked Seachem if their bacteria live in brackish water all they say is in freshwater and marine nothing about the inbetween aka brackish, does the RO system remove the stuff the decolorisation doesn’t?
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