Trans-Andean Ancistrus

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Trans-Andean Ancistrus

Post by Suckermouth »

Paper link: http://www.mapress.com/zootaxa/2013/f/zt03641p370.pdf

Trans-Andean Ancistrus (Siluriformes: Loricariidae)
DONALD C. TAPHORN, JONATHAN W. ARMBRUSTER, FRANCISCO VILLA-NAVARRO & C. KEITH RAY

Abstract
We review the trans-Andean species of Ancistrus from Panama, Colombia and Venezuela. Based on analyses of meristic, morphometric and pigmentation pattern data of preserved specimens, eight of sixteen species reported from this region are considered valid and two new species are described. Here we review Ancistrus chagresi Eigenmann & Eigenmann 1889 from both slopes of central Panama; A. centrolepis Regan 1913 from Pacific slopes of eastern Panama and western Colombia; Ancistrus caucanus Fowler 1943, from the Magdalena River drainage in northern Colombia; Ancistrus martini Schultz 1944, from the Lake Maracaibo Basin of Venezuela and Colombia. Ancistrus galani Pérez & Viloria 1994, from a cave in the Lake Maracaibo Basin of Venezuela is considered valid but was not examined. Ancistrus tolima new species is described from the upper Magdalena River drainage and Ancistrus vericaucanus new species is described from the upper Cauca River drainage. Ancistrus gymnorhynchus Kner 1854 and A. falconensis Taphorn, Armbruster & Rodriguez-O. 2010 were treated previously. One specimen of A. clementinae Rendahl 1937 from the Pacific coast of Ecuador was examined, it is considered a valid species. A key for identification and geographical ranges are provided.
- Milton Tan
Research Scientist @ Illinois Natural History Survey

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Re: Trans-Andean Ancistrus

Post by Silurus »

I'll have to say that Ancistrus caucanus looks remarkably like the common bristlenose.
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Re: Trans-Andean Ancistrus

Post by Jools »

Silurus wrote:I'll have to say that Ancistrus caucanus looks remarkably like the common bristlenose.
It looks a lot like the common US one but shows a pale distal seam in the caudal. It also looks a bit short in the head anterior of the eyes - but that could be camera angle. 65mm max. SL seems a wee bit small too, but that could be the sample size?

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Re: CLOG edit feature broken?

Post by bekateen »

MODERATOR NOTE: The following two posts were moved from here: CLOG edit feature broken? to connect them to the relevant research article on the same topic.
Jools wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:19 pm
BTW, not sure I entirely agree A. bodenhameri is a synonym of A. martini unless what we had a A. bodenhameri was a mis-ID. Which has a backstory, so not so sure...
I've looked at the Ancistrus bodenhameri shown on L-welse.com, and what appear to be small adults they show the same pattern shown in your pics, the pics almost resemble the pattern of Ancistrus sp`Rio_Tocantins` and a few others:

https://www.l-welse.com/gallery/files/1 ... 2_1000.jpg

I compare that pattern to this: Imagine starting with the wabenmuster pattern on the dorsum, but the pale circles fuse together to form Ys, Ls, Ts, and Js. This gives the pattern I see in Rio Tocantins and some other species (to a lesser extent, Rio Paraguay too

As to the synonymy, I was careful to keep photographic names with photos if disarticulated later. Also thought it was worthwhile to dig up photo of Ancistrus martini underbelly to show difference from bodenhameri underbelly. Was glad the photo existed, even if B&W.

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Re: CLOG edit feature broken?

Post by bekateen »

Here's the original holotypes of Ancistrus martini and Ancistrus bodenhameri (both cleaned up) from Schultz. They don't look much different from each other dorsally, and they both have reasonable resemblance to the color photo I've added to the CLOG from the Taphorn paper.

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Attachments
A. triradiatus martini Schultz, 1944 holotype
A. triradiatus martini Schultz, 1944 holotype
A. brevifilis bodenhameri Schultz, 1944 holotype
A. brevifilis bodenhameri Schultz, 1944 holotype
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Re: Trans-Andean Ancistrus

Post by bekateen »

From the Taphorn et al. (2013) paper: Key to trans-Andean Ancistrus (for specimens preserved in alcohol)
  • 1a. Eyes reduced; little to no pigment on body..... Ancistrus galani (cave in Lake Maracaibo Basin)
    • 1b. Eyes normal; body pigmented..... 2
    2a. Body without white spots or blotches (body entirely dark gray or tan with black spots or short vermiculations); caudal fin entirely dark or with sparse black spots that don’t align to form vertical bands; lateral plates with enlarged odontodes along posterior margin that are directed posterolaterally and some of which overlap the successive plate ..... Ancistrus centrolepis (Pacific slopes of Panama and Colombia, and Atrato River)
    • 2b. Body of preserved specimens with at least some white spots or blotches; caudal fin either with irregular white spots or with black spots that align to form vertical bands; lateral plates with normal-sized odontodes directed mostly posteriorly and none overlapping successive plate ..... 3
    3a. Pectoral fin maximally reaching pelvic-fin spine when depressed ventral to pelvic fin; usually two or more preadipose plates; depressed dorsal fin not reaching posteriormost preadipose plate ..... 4
    • 3b. Pectoral fin reaching past middle of base of pelvic fin when depressed ventral to pelvic fin; usually just one preadipose plate; depressed dorsal fin usually reaching to posteriormost preadipose plate ..... 5
    4a. Adipose-fin spine completely adnate to dorsum with no adipose-fin membrane in adults; usually 4–5 preadipose plates (sometimes 3); dentary tooth cup length to SL ratio 5.7–9.1% ..... Ancistrus tolima n. sp. (upper Magdalena River drainage of Colombia)
    • 4b. Adipose-fin spine close to dorsum, but adipose-fin membrane present; usually 2 preadipose plates (occasionally 1 or 3); dentary tooth cup length to SL ratio 4.7–5.3% ..... Ancistrus vericaucanus n. sp. (upper Cauca River drainage of Colombia)
    5a. Caudal fin dark-colored (gray) with light spots, dark spots, if present, not usually aligning to form vertical bars ..... Ancistrus chagresi (Caribbean and Pacific slopes of Panama)
    • 5b. Caudal fin light-colored with dark spots that often align to form vertical or oblique bars ..... 6
    6a. Snout length/head length ratio 51.3–54.9%; head-eye length/snout length 72.3–91.9% in specimens greater than 60 mm SL; dark spots on fins relatively large forming what appears to be 4–5 irregular bands on the caudal fin (specimens are in a poor state of preservation) and 4–6 spots along the pectoral-fin spine ..... Ancistrus caucanus (Magdalena River drainage of Colombia)
    • 6b. Snout length/head length ratio 55.5–65.3%; head-eye length/snout length 53.9–72.1% in specimens greater than 60 mm SL; dark spots on fins relatively small, forming 6–9 irregular bands on the caudal fin and 7–9 spots along the pectoral-fin spine ..... Ancistrus martini (Lake Maracaibo Basin of Venezuela and Colombia)
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Re: Trans-Andean Ancistrus

Post by bekateen »

Jools wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:19 pm
BTW, not sure I entirely agree A. bodenhameri is a synonym of A. martini unless what we had a A. bodenhameri was a mis-ID. Which has a backstory, so not so sure...
@Jools, is this your backstory? viewtopic.php?t=34253
And
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2128

By coincidence, today was @Elwood 's birthday. Hope it was good!
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Re: Trans-Andean Ancistrus

Post by Jools »

Yes, that's it. So, we have two species in A. martini, the older pictures (discussed in those threads you've helpfully linked) need moved. The question is, where?

How about Ancistrus sp `Cucuta`?

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Re: Trans-Andean Ancistrus

Post by bekateen »

Jools wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:28 am
Yes, that's it. So, we have two species in A. martini, the older pictures (discussed in those threads you've helpfully linked) need moved. The question is, where? How about Ancistrus sp `Cucuta`?
Looking at the above Taphorn et al. (2013) key to the Trans-Andean Ancistrus, I see nothing in the key that matches @Elwood's Ancistrus sp. Cucuta, assuming that the collection information on his fish is solid (i.e., that the fish are Trans-Andean).

However, if you look at the newer De Sousa, Taphorn & Armbruster paper (2019) (here, pdf here) and examine the preserved photos of Ancistrus brevifilis, I thought it looks very similar to Elwood's Ancistrus sp. Cucuta.

I contacted Donald Taphorn and shared Elwood's photos. Donald said that Ancistrus triradiatus is likely the correct ID. He said Cucuta is located right between the Maracaibo Basin in streams that flow north, and the Orinoco in streams that flow south into the Apure. He said that meant either A. martini or A. triradiatus. A. martini is variable, but typically has white spots, so not that. He said that A. triradiatus is spread widely across the region and is highly variable regionally and with habitat differences, with some populations looking something like what I noticed (like A. brevifilis) and others being spotted like A. martini. Donald concluded by saying during his work there, they contemplated splitting the Orinoco populations of A. triradiatus from the rest of A. triradiatus to a new species, but could not justify it without DNA (which they didn't have), since there were no reliable and consistent anatomical or pigmentation pattern differences to use for dividing the two subgroups of the species.

With that input, Jools, I'm on the fence as to whether we create a new CLOG profile for Ancistrus sp`Cucuta` (vs. place Elwood's photos on the A. triradiatus page). I'm okay with either, but being the cautious lumper I am, I would prefer to keep them separate, creating the A. sp`Cucuta` entry but adding to the general comments that it possibly might be a local variant of A. triradiatus.

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Re: Trans-Andean Ancistrus

Post by bekateen »

Jools wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:28 am
Yes, that's it. So, we have two species in A. martini, the older pictures (discussed in those threads you've helpfully linked) need moved. The question is, where? How about Ancistrus sp `Cucuta`?
Four more observation about Elwood's fish and Ancistrus triradiatus:
  1. Compare these two photos, the first from the Ancistrus triradiatus CLOG page, and the second one of Elwood's photos (I slightly light/color adjusted Elwood's photo, so that the details might be more visible). I would suggest there is meaningful similarity in the light/dark patterning along the flanks of the body and caudal peduncle. To be careful though, there are also differences, like the amount of white on the caudal fin margins (although that can change with age).
    Image
    One of Elwood's photos
    One of Elwood's photos
  2. Lobosupermalo wrote:
    Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:08 pm
    I don't think this is A. bodenhameri. ... (text omitted here by Eric) ...

    I think the fishes at the picture are A. triradiatus,a tipical species of the Rio Meta system.

    Regards
    Patrick
    I appreciate that Patrick is merely expressing his opinion; and his post is so old that I wasn't around then to know how reliable Patrick was as a resource. That said, I find it interesting that Patrick came to the conclusion that Elwood's fish are typical A. triradiatus from that region.
  3. Ancistrus triradiatus CLOG page wrote:Records from the Rio Magdalena and Maracaibo basin drainages are suspect.
    My conversation today with Taphorn would suggest that Ancistrus martini is the identity of the Maracaibo (...and Magdalena?) specimens reported as A. triradiatus, since he said the two are so similar to one another in some areas, color-wise.
  4. Shane wrote:
    Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:55 pm
    The resource I thought would be key "Fishes of Catatumbo" was a complete bust as they just declare that all Ancistrus in the llanos, Maracaibo, and Magdalena basins are Ancistrus triradiatus. /Epic fail :-Q
    Shane's observation of the sweeping generalization of all nearby Ancistrus to A. triradiatus is to be expected, given the information I received from Taphorn today (ignoring the species which have been described since, which are distinctly different from A. triradiatus and A. martini). It's a shame that Venezuela is so unsafe now for collecting; it would be great to get some DNA data on these variations of A. triradiatus and A. martini to find out how many (if any) cryptic species exist here.
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Re: Trans-Andean Ancistrus

Post by Jools »

Eric,

I do like how you show your "workings" if all aquarists could do this (vs "it's not that fish, it's different") life would be awesome! So, I see where you're headed and I agree we have two fishes in A. triradiatus at present and one of them looks to be the same as the ex-bodenhameri now that that taxon is a synonym of A. martini which is a white head fleck (not spot) species. While the scientists working in this don't use this to separate species, for now anyway, I would think because these species are exported commonly and bred readily, we should be a bit "splitty".

I know at the beginning of all this 2001ish, Shane explained to me a major reason for the ID was that the head tentacles split into three (in mature males). I don't know if he (and I didn't) consider colouration although what he (and I) thought was A. brevifilis was a more networked fish with simple tentacles; generally a slighter species too. So, now it seems we have a networked fish with complex tentacles.

So, A. triradiatus would be the white spots on the face fish and A. sp. `something` would be the networked on? Looping in @Shane although I do know he's rather busy at present as having just moved back to the USA.

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Re: Trans-Andean Ancistrus

Post by bekateen »

Jools wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:00 am
I know at the beginning of all this 2001ish, Shane explained to me a major reason for the ID was that the head tentacles split into three (in mature males).
It's coincidence that you should bring up the number of bristle points here, because in the past I've frequently thought that bristle complexity might be a trait reliably static that it constitutes a taxonomically significant trait for many Ancistrus.

But just today I was ruminating ( in a healthy, positive way) over this detail after a fellow keeper of Ancistrus sp`Rio_Ucayali` told me that their specimens had fewer and less complex bristles than do mine (he had both mine and his side by side for comparison). This brought me to the question of whether bristle length and branching complexity might be phenotypically plastic traits affected by factors such as water current, temperature, etc., much like snout shape and curvature is in some lineage 1 Corydoras(Ln1).

Maybe not so in all Ancistrus, but if in some, this would throw a monkey wrench into taxonomy based on this trait.

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Re: Trans-Andean Ancistrus

Post by bekateen »

bekateen wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:49 pm
[*]Compare these two photos, the first from the Ancistrus triradiatus CLOG page, and the second one of Elwood's photos (I slightly light/color adjusted Elwood's photo, so that the details might be more visible). I would suggest there is meaningful similarity in the light/dark patterning along the flanks of the body and caudal peduncle. To be careful though, there are also differences, like the amount of white on the caudal fin margins (although that can change with age).
Image
Ancistrus cucuta 1.png
One of Elwood's photos
One of Elwood's photos
Is it possible this broad marks color pattern is just a juvenile color pattern? Do the large adults lose it?

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Re: Trans-Andean Ancistrus

Post by Jools »

It's possible, I would say likely, because that pale vertical band on the caudal peduncle is a feature other plecos lose or lessen with age.

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Re: Trans-Andean Ancistrus

Post by bekateen »

@Jools, should I go forward and create Ancistrus sp`Cucuta ` and split the photos? Or should I wait for more discussion, e.g., from Shane?

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Re: Trans-Andean Ancistrus

Post by Jools »

I would split them out to A. sp. cucuta. Firstly, they can be recombined at a later date if DNA proves that fish that look different share the "same" DNA, secondly, it means there can be a species-specific description of all this detail. Will help breeders keep them apart too as, I think, the network form may be the fish being bred in eastern Europe - or at least there is that possibility.

Cheers,

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Re: Trans-Andean Ancistrus

Post by bekateen »

Done, with explanation submitted. Thanks for the perspective.

Ancistrus sp`cucuta`

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Re: Trans-Andean Ancistrus

Post by Jools »

:thumbsup: :-)

Jools

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