21st Century LFS

[apistomaster]

Many of the small on line dealers who sell rare and or expensive fish still have to carry bread and butter fish exactly as Jools described.
They have to to make any profit regardless of their gross.
Popular imports like Cardinal Tetras, to cite one example, are bought in box lots which may be 300 to 500 pieces depending on the size of the boxes. The gross mark up is about 1000%, But rare and expensive species never have such a high mark up. It may be as little as 100 to 150% of the list price they paid. Customers usually buy in the same way. Many inexpensive fish like 50 cardinals and a few other fish from the expensive groups. Everyone has to do more less this because of similar reasons. The freight on an order for a few fish is about the same as that for a larger number with a mix of inexpensive and high priced fish.
Many of these on line dealers are not big businesses but they often have a forum associated with their business web site or a Yahoo group to have that more personal contact with their customers. Maintaining a dialog helps make their businesses develop a personal relationships and customer loyalty just as a brick and mortar shop does. These smaller on line stores are often garage, basement or similarly small operations with limited walk in trade or pick up by appointment for local customers.
It is rare for a small specialty fish shops to also have an on line side to their business but a few whose names have been mentioned fill such a niche. And niches are where you find most on line fish businesses operating in. You normally need a very well established retail + wholesale business before it becomes worth setting up the third leg, on line business. Of course, there is a Poisson distribution curve which encompasses a large range of sizes and types of business models actually exists such that there are always some exceptional forms and many conventional forms of business models of fish shops out there. And from the very small to the very large.

There are naturally fewer shops who carry a very large selection of species. If you dig a bit you often find they are both selling fish at retail prices and acting as regional wholesalers to smaller actual fish and pet shops or fish and garden center shops or WHY.

[retro_gk]

Cross Mark D. once about his quality standards and DOA's and see what happens.

I first purchased fish from Mark around 2005-06, when he'd just started selling online, and his service was impeccable. His mailing list is still going strong, so I assumed he was still doing as well.

The growth / ROI against a market of, say, 5m is massive versus those that would drive to your store.

How many of those additional customers would bring in a significant repeat business? People don't buy fish/accessories like they do books and electronics. Unless these retailers specialised in different livestock niches, wouldn't one large, quality online retailer dominate, to the detriment of smaller stores? This would make a very nice case study for a business management student, methinks.

Charge for the advice. Only give it out to in person callers. Write FAQs. Run a forum to provide self help within the community. Intergrate the business with the community.

Good point. A couple of the people I mentioned (Frank and Mark) already do this. Frank's storefront (www.franksaquarium.com) does a fairly good job with pictures and descriptions and he has an associated forum. Mark runs a mailing list where he posts what is available and people with questions can get them answered by more experienced aquarists. However, both are web only stores. Would someone with a B&M store have the time for all this? Worry about servers and backups and people pissing each other off on the forum?

A lot of getting it wrong is becuase they use books that are older than me. Aren't they more likely to get it right when a picture of the species in question is on the label? There will always be folks who get it wrong, but I come back to my point again about integrating an online community with a business.

And here is an opportunity to be the change we wish to see. Perhaps create a simple QRC implementation and approach a couple of the more tech savvy stores to use it on a trial basis (should not cost them anything more than the use of a printer to print labels, and the time needed to stick it on the tanks). If the stores find it useful, you could make it a paid service.

An even better service would be one where the store clicks a good picture of a fish and the app figures out what it is, but that is probably a few years of effort down the line.

[Jools]

How many of those additional customers would bring in a significant repeat business?

Thats part of the point of the business model I am proposing. At present, IMHO, online stores generally have very low customer loyalty becuase its mostly about getting that $300 eheim filter at as low a price as possible. There is no value add. With what I'm proposing, there is. Some people think selling is the process of getting a customer what they want, what I'm more thinking of is getting the customer what they need. The latter will drive repeat business and organic growth. Fewer and fewer fishkeepers these days are isolated - they pass on the good experiences more now than ever.

People don't buy fish/accessories like they do books and electronics. Unless these retailers specialised in different livestock niches, wouldn't one large, quality online retailer dominate, to the detriment of smaller stores? This would make a very nice case study for a business management student, methinks.

Maybe. But all I want is a quality online retailer that does the whole thing. I would be interested in you expanding on the first sentence in the quote above. I had a think about it and I (personally) buy fish and to some degree accessories in about the same way as I do books, shopping (groceries in American) and electronics. That said, I'm probably atypical, so would be interested, as I say, in your wider thoughts on what the differences you see are.

Absolutely right re the case study - great idea!

Would someone with a B&M store have the time for all this? Worry about servers and backups and people pissing each other off on the forum?

I'm not sure what B&M is, sorry if I'm being dense. Servers and backups and all that jazz are managed services and are included in the $10/month above. Managing people on forums would be a major amount of effort I am sure. But then it's no different from the same annoying customer in real life when they walk in your door. You just have to set your stall out and keep on top of it. Fish at trade prices to a moderator or two ought to do it!

You raise a very good point about time. Again from a business perspective I see a lot of "one man band" or "mom & pop" type stores. Often they suffer from a retience to delegate. This limits growth. Also store assistants are often poorly selected. If it were me, I'd put capable and personable before knowledgable about fish. It is much easier for a capable and personable person to pick up the fish thing than it is the other way around. Let's call them type A and type B for future debate! Training is important too. I've worked in three LFS and only one gave me any training at all. Mind you, in all cases I just walked in (a much younger man) as a customer so often that I was soon catching my own fish and the conversation around working a couple of days at the weekend was easy to do.

A lot of getting it wrong is becuase they use books that are older than me. Aren't they more likely to get it right when a picture of the species in question is on the label? There will always be folks who get it wrong, but I come back to my point again about integrating an online community with a business.

And here is an opportunity to be the change we wish to see. Perhaps create a simple QRC implementation and approach a couple of the more tech savvy stores to use it on a trial basis (should not cost them anything more than the use of a printer to print labels, and the time needed to stick it on the tanks). If the stores find it useful, you could make it a paid service.

Spot on. I've already had this conversation with two stores and they were very keen indeed. There are companies out there who sell sheets for this purpose but it's really limited. I wouldn't charge for it, but use it for advertising. Or maybe have an advertising free paid version, but LFS don't seem to mind advertising - fish bags, for example, are often sponsored in a similar way.

On this, when I go to Tesco [insert your local supermarket here] and buy things I get a receipt that says "2 packs of tortillas, 12 pack of Guinness and a some salsa dip". How often do you see a receipt for 3 Bronze Corys, 10 Neon Tetras and a common pleco? So, very little inventory management going on (like none) and so zero analysis of buying trends and patterns.

BUT I've often thought that receipts like this would be great just for a lot of newer fishkeepers who actually forgot what they bought. Experts take it for granted, but walk into a store with a similar range of things you're not familiar with and see how you feel. It happens with me big garden stores, I am awash in greenery I know nothing about. That, or you have the fish tank labels to give away with the fishes upon request. How many LFS customers first question on their third visit to buy fish is something along the lines of "I want to buy more fish for the tank but I am not sure what I've got".

So, labels...

The issue, as you say, is about the pic not looking like the fish in the tank but it being the right ID. For example, what label do you have for a bronze cory when the fish for sale are albino corys.

An even better service would be one where the store clicks a good picture of a fish and the app figures out what it is, but that is probably a few years of effort down the line.

Google are already throwing a lot of cash at this in their google googles project which is pretty good at recognisiign text, landmarks, books, artwork, wine and company logos. This has a lot of so-called augmented reality uses (such as viewing a realtime translation of a road sign in a foreign language). However, they're on record as saying the absolute hardest thing to do are animals. I suspect we won't be seeing an app that can ID

Hypancistrus

anytime soon (unless it uses DNA....). Only kidding about the DNA, probably.

Jools

[Shane]

On this, when I go to Tesco [insert your local supermarket here] and buy things I get a receipt that says "2 packs of tortillas, 12 pack of Guinness and a some salsa dip". How often do you see a receipt for 3 Bronze Corys, 10 Neon Tetras and a common pleco? So, very little inventory management going on (like none) and so zero analysis of buying trends and patterns.

I suspect that, at least in some US Mom and Pop stores, this is done on purpose for tax (or should I say not paying tax) reasons.
-Shane

[PlecoCrazy]

On this, when I go to Tesco [insert your local supermarket here] and buy things I get a receipt that says "2 packs of tortillas, 12 pack of Guinness and a some salsa dip". How often do you see a receipt for 3 Bronze Corys, 10 Neon Tetras and a common pleco? So, very little inventory management going on (like none) and so zero analysis of buying trends and patterns.

I suspect that, at least in some US Mom and Pop stores, this is done on purpose for tax (or should I say not paying tax) reasons.
-Shane

I believe the main reason for this is simply because they are still using a cash register. You have 8 programmable departments so all they really keep track of is say saltwater fish is department 1 and is taxable, freshwater fish is department 2 and taxable, dry goods is department 3, tanks 4, etc..

When you run the report at the end of the night it tells you how much you sold in each department, total for cash/check/credit, and how much sales tax and sub and final totals. That is pretty much how they keep track of things.

[Taratron]

There is a pet store here in Phoenix that was touted as the best in the area, called The Ocean Floor. And if you don't notice the reeking tanks where the reptile section used to be, and the mess of that cordoned off area that has been that way for months, the store is somewhat okay. It is bigger than most box stores, has a koi stream where people can buy feed and feed the fish, which has to be a good moneymaker. But the prices are obscenely high and they sell dyed and painted fish, which turns away a lot of aquarists. It really is a shop for the impulse buy, or to kill an hour with a kid, but the place is dirtier and has an aura of a a pretty dirty sex shop. Hell, the Castle Megastore adult store is clean, well stocked, and you'd think you were in an upscale place with some special decor if you didn't know otherwise.

So after being bummed out about going there, I risked a drive across town to Pets Inc. When I first started shopping there they sold kittens and puppies, which I was not happy with, but they phased that out quickly. They do sell several small mammals but don't carry parrots or birds save for a few lovebirds rarely. The store is about the size of a standard box grocery store, and the reptiles section is clear and clean. You can't smell any rat or mouse urine. Can't even smell the crickets. And the fish section is huge, they can special order animals in, carry live foods like blackworms, and while they do carry a lot of the standard guppies and the like, they also have a lot of African rarities, tons of plecos, and best of all they like to buy from local breeders. They also have discount tanks, where people can turn in unwanted fish (that's where I picked up my Congo tetras for $3 each). They have room to improve, of course, I wish they'd update their web site, but the guys there know their stuff.

There are several small fish stores closer to me than PI, but nearly all of them have mislabelled fish, dark or dimly lit tanks, and the places stink. I'd rather drive 40 miles to a nice store than support one a few blocks away with poor setups.

That said, I do do business online because sometimes it is cheaper and the fish I want can be found there quicker. Some online guys are pretty nice and will help out no matter how many questions I have (I have a high pH here and I always want to check and see what the seller keeps their fish in) and others are curt or show no interest beyond the basic 'I'm selling things so pay up or shut up.' Those ones don't get business, no matter how nice the deal is.

[retro_gk]

People don't buy fish/accessories like they do books and electronics.

I would be interested in you expanding on the first sentence in the quote above.

a) Fish/accessory purchases are likely to be long term investments and therefore less likely to be influenced by spur of the moment buying. If I've bought 4 books, I might buy another one or two, especially if it get some price cuts. Not necessarily something I'd do with fish. Even though most of us are guilty of buying fish on a whim at one time or another, it may not be in the best interests of the fish.

b) Book/electronic goods choices can be more easily swayed by the opinions of others, because even if an item does not live up to expectations, I can just let it sit on a shelf, return it, gift it, throw it away or resell it. Not something that's easy to do with fish or accessories (other than fish food).

c) I also buy most of my books used and resell older electronic goods to finance new purchases.

I'm not sure what B&M is, sorry if I'm being dense.

Sorry, Brick & Mortar, a physical store customers can visit.

Servers and backups and all that jazz are managed services and are included in the $10/month above.

I think that's a bit on the low side. AFAIK, $10 month will get you some disk and database space and bandwidth on a shared server. If I was running a web based business, with a fairly active forum and several hundred hits per day on the store, I'd be looking at a VPS (relatively inexpensive) or dedicated host (expensive). Even if I went with a basic shared host, there'd still be regular back ups to take care of (bad idea to depend on the service provider for this) and the usual software updates and security patches. It only takes a few minutes a week to do this, but a lot of people find it tiresome.

a retience to delegate. store assistants are often poorly selected. Training is important too.

The holy trinity! Select the right people, train them well and delegate wisely. This should be hammered into every business owners brain. If you ask me, this is where most stores can really change for the better.

How many LFS customers first question on their third visit to buy fish is something along the lines of "I want to buy more fish for the tank but I am not sure what I've got".

A loyalty program, perhaps? Even if an itemized receipt is not provided (for reasons others have brought up), it'd be relatively simple for the store to maintain a record of what a customer has purchased. Would even help with targeted advertising, along the lines of what Shane suggested (you've purchased rams, how about some Entomocorus?). I think stores would do better business if they kept track of what people bought and called them up when new stuff came in, rather than wait for the customer to walk in.

google googles However, they're on record as saying the absolute hardest thing to do are animals.

Perhaps this should be a topic of its own, but I think fish would be one of the easier classes of animals to apply this technology to, as many (most?) diagnostic characters are visible in two dimensions and can be readily broken down into numerical values.

For example, if you were to stipulate the input to be an image taken against a light background, cropped to 100% (or closest possible) that fits any one of standard image dimensions without any resizing, the program could then apply a standard grid over the image (a fixed number of squares (say 100x100), with the size of squares varying as per size of image) and process the image with some sort of geometric or matrix analysis.

Having thought about this thread over the weekend (as India proudly held on to the spirit of cricket while letting everything else slip away), I came to the conclusion there are perhaps two main areas to consider. One is the actual store, and improvements therein; the 21st century store, so to speak, and the other is the concept of selling online; something like Aquabid for the 21st century. Using Amazon and Aquabid as starting points, I feel the future of online stores is perhaps in the hands of a third party entrepreneur, who acts as a content aggregator and provides an interface for sellers and buyers.

Rather than wait for individual stores to get their acts together, it might make more sense for a software developer to put together a web/mobile platform where sellers can upload information about their goods via a simple interface, and have it linked to fish databases. Sellers need not be restricted to stores, open it up to hobby breeders, as an alternative to ebay. The software could do the job of making suggestions to buyers (buy rams from breeder x, diamond tetras from store y and Entomocorus from wholesaler a) and even help sellers with packing and shipping fish. A dedicated pick up and drop off service could probably be arranged in the UK. Just tossing ideas about.

[Shane]

Having thought about this thread over the weekend (as India proudly held on to the spirit of cricket while letting everything else slip away), I came to the conclusion there are perhaps two main areas to consider. One is the actual store, and improvements therein; the 21st century store, so to speak, and the other is the concept of selling online; something like Aquabid for the 21st century.

I agree. Our split thread seems to have split again between what makes a good store and what could be some very useful technologies. There may be a very good argument that the 21st century fish store would be virtual, but I hope not as I still enjoy visiting fish stores and looking through all the tanks for that little gem that came in as a contaminant or that tank that contains something I have never seen or thought about keeping before.

By comparison, I have a Kindle and can by books virtually, but I still stop in at book stores because 1) it is a better shopping experience and 2) I am far more likely to come across something neat that I was not even looking for.

-Shane

[MatsP]

That's a really good point, Shane. I use Amazon to buy books that I _know_ I want, e.g. "I need a book about the Programming Language X", "I want a map of Peru" or "I need to get the latest by <some author>". Real "B&M" book shops are much better to find "I'd like a nice crime/thriller type book to read" - you can browse a whole range of books in a couple of minutes - no browsing and waiting for the page to load. If you see something you fancy, you can have a quick read of the back/inside cover and maybe even pick a page about 1/3 into the book to see what the language is like.

Likewise, I've walked into a fish-shop thinking "I'll get some <insert species here>" and then found myself looking at a completely different species and buying that. If you search the page for <species>, you won't find the "random species you didn't even know about".

--
Mats

[RickE]

I suppose there is also the concern that if it became usual practise for even less common species, online selling would reduce everything to the status of ' I decided that's what I want, now let's see who's got it cheapest'. Which I think is the way most people shop on the internet. And the answer is probably Amazon.

[wrasse]

The other thing about visiting a shop in person is... you can pick the individual fish you want to buy. If you want half a dozen corys you can choose the individuals. Also, as a regular customer you can build a relationship with the retailer, which I think is invaluable.

From the retailers side, mail-order can expand their market, in a huge country like the USA its probably a good idea. But they are vulnerable to complaints, such as... the fish were dead on arrival, they died after a day, etc. Its all difficult to prove, more so if they live far away. A bit sickening if they leave the shop in fantastic health. So is it worth the trouble?
A retailer like most people, doesn't want an argument but at the same time they don't want their goodwill taken advantage of. I imagine it only takes one crappy customer to spoil what would otherwise be a good day. Fortunately most people are reasonable... (-:

[Jools]

I suppose there is also the concern that if it became usual practise for even less common species, online selling would reduce everything to the status of ' I decided that's what I want, now let's see who's got it cheapest'. Which I think is the way most people shop on the internet. And the answer is probably Amazon.

I don't think that's really true. I shop online becuase I can do it in the evening, or at a time to suit me, becuase it saves me travel and it is quicker. I can checkout several retailers quickly. I buy online even if it's a little more expensive and I can buy from a particular retailer. I also use online to find things not available to me locally.

I think a lot of people are learning that buying quality delivers value in the same way as it does in the offline world. For example, I've bought external filters on eBay before (new) and had a lot of trouble with missing parts (being accused of lying that they were missing). I recently bought one from zooplus and it arrived damaged. They had a new replacement one out to me before the courier arrived to pickup the damaged one. Very easy. Certainly I do not buy on price alone online unless it's way cheaper >20% say.

In the future I think customers will become increasinly sophisiticated when making the choices of who to buy from online and price will not be the leading factor. You'd just need to be competitive and not way out cheapest - I think that holds even more truck with livestock.

So, I think quality fish and service will win the day off or online.

Jools

[Jools]

The other thing about visiting a shop in person is... you can pick the individual fish you want to buy. If you want half a dozen corys you can choose the individuals. Also, as a regular customer you can build a relationship with the retailer, which I think is invaluable.

Totally agree. Although some of the video link stuff I was talking about would address that to a degree. However, in short, you can't beat a bunch of friends getting together and hitting a few LFS and that, online, is way, way off.

The point about building a relationship is a good one, but that can be done remotely. Actually, one of my main points is the business model I am championing is to do both offline and online. Sure, go visit the shop when you can, but wouldn't you rather spend £15 on a courier for fishes you've seen a video of than spend all of a rainy day driving for 8 hours, burning £80 of fuel? I'd do the latter once in a while to meet up with friends, but just for those "must have" corys?

From the retailers side, mail-order can expand their market, in a huge country like the USA its probably a good idea. But they are vulnerable to complaints, such as... the fish were dead on arrival, they died after a day, etc. Its all difficult to prove, more so if they live far away. A bit sickening if they leave the shop in fantastic health. So is it worth the trouble?

Your average offline LFS will have plenty stories of good fish going to bad homes. I am not sure the online sale of fish makes it much different. Full refund for dead fish if photo emailed back to store is how I'd deal with it. It's crap, but that happens. As noted above many LFS are crap at customer service, I think these incidents would be much more isolated if they were better. Again, sole trader synodrome, e.g. "everyone else is an idiot and I'm always right". Customers can be idiots too, of course, but it's how you handle them. If someone's not up for that part of it, then running a shop online or offline, might not be the fun ride they thought.

Anyway, I go back to the point that it's not offline versus online. In the same way it's not DVD versus cinema. Offline and online LFS could be better in most cases.

Jools

[Jools]

Using Amazon and Aquabid as starting points, I feel the future of online stores is perhaps in the hands of a third party entrepreneur, who acts as a content aggregator and provides an interface for sellers and buyers.

Rather than wait for individual stores to get their acts together, it might make more sense for a software developer to put together a web/mobile platform where sellers can upload information about their goods via a simple interface, and have it linked to fish databases. Sellers need not be restricted to stores, open it up to hobby breeders, as an alternative to ebay. The software could do the job of making suggestions to buyers (buy rams from breeder x, diamond tetras from store y and Entomocorus from wholesaler a) and even help sellers with packing and shipping fish. A dedicated pick up and drop off service could probably be arranged in the UK. Just tossing ideas about.

Tried that (maybe too early) - anyone remember watermart? A spectacular failure.

To a degree this is already in place (eBay, too general. Aquabid, sorely lacking in features, generic shopping cart solutions everywhere) but the model focusses on sellers. I'm proposing something focussed on buyers and brand loyalty with repeat business the key where an online presence improves the offline (B&M) and vice versa.

What, I think, will happen in the UK is something of a hybrid. Someone like Maidenhead doing online properly as I outline. Thus the franchise model is augmented by a "best in show" online presence funded by the group and availining itself of the groups buying power. Say the group has 100 stores, £50 per store per month delivers the ability to invest £60K/year in said online offering. You open a franchise, you pay your £50 pcm, you get the online presence, back this off with a corporate CRM & inventory management and you're MOTORING. Dominos Pizza (UK) is a great example of this model.

BUT! You open this up to any LFS who wants to pay £50 pcm for the privelidge, then you lose the brand and you never gain the buying power.

Great discussion this!

Jools

[Shane]

Anyway, I go back to the point that it's not offline versus online. In the same way it's not DVD versus cinema. Offline and online LFS could be better in most cases.

I see this as a "hunter" (online) vs "gatherer" (B&M) thing. The hunter is usually looking for a specific product and online shopping is great for this. I think that is one reason why dry goods do so well online. Needing a heater, filter, or algae tabs is pretty targeted. Back to the Kindle/Amazon.com example, if I want the new G.R.R. Martin novel it is just a couple of clicks and I have it. Hunter shopping, as stated above, also pairs very well with making price comparisons.

Gathering is very different altogether and is best done by visiting an actual store. Despite the best efforts of programmers at Amazon, their "recommendations" function does not facilitate gathering very well. I am more likely to find an interesting new fantasy novel browsing the shelves at Borders Books than using Amazon.
Same for fish. If I want 6 L XXX online shopping is great. However it can't replace coming across a shipment of "assorted wild corys" and finding some real gems amongst them nor finding something you had never seen before, never thought about keeping, and just have to have now that you have seen them.

I did a little research, and guess what... men are the big online shoppers. They buy more frequently, spend more money and make online shopping decisions in 2/3s the time women do. Still a bit of hunter in us despite technological domestication.
http://dailyinfographic.com/men-vs-wome ... nfographic

-Shane

[Jools]

Despite the best efforts of programmers at Amazon, their "recommendations" function does not facilitate gathering very well.

Yeah, but that's because they don't (and can't) manage a community to make recommendations. About the best Amazon et al can do is, when you look at some specific thing, the "people who looked at this also looked (or bought) this" comes good. Here's a simple example of what having community data does, if you are posting all the time in a forum and commonly getting replies (maybe even machine detectable positive replies) from forum member X and Y. What if then, it turns out member X lives in the same country (or meets some other unifying criteria). So, let's make some recommendations on what member X is buying. It becomes group hunting which is not far off targeted gathering.

And don't get me wrong, I'm all for the offline LFS tour, but if I could, I would spend a lot more money that I spend on fuel on fish instead. I don't see travel getting cheaper anytime soon.

This may start a whole new thread, but does anyone else find that contaminants are really becoming rare these days?

I did a little research, and guess what... men are the big online shoppers. They buy more frequently, spend more money and make online shopping decisions in 2/3s the time women do. Still a bit of hunter in us despite technological domestication.
http://dailyinfographic.com/men-vs-wome ... nfographic

Great work! I wonder what the ratio of male to female fish store visitors is...

Jools

[sidguppy]

but does anyone else find that contaminants are really becoming rare these days?

of I can inlude "for the last 10 years at least" with "these days", I so agree with you 100% on this........

great discussion btw.
I can follow Shane's point though, even if we skip the contaminants.

browsing a store, especially one that isn't too shy to stock rares can lead to surprise aquisitions and even a new succesful fish in the tank or hobby

a few examples of my own:
Dutch store in my area (about 20 miles from here). I was on my way from Marc and decided to make a bit of a roundaboutr and visit a store I hadn't seen in over a decade.
some of the fish weren't that good, most were and to my surprise over half of their "Platydoras costatus" turned out to be Orinocodoras eigenmanni! now I got a friend who had 3 but was looking for more anbd we couldn't find em anywhere.
I brought home a group for him.
file this under contaminants ;)

another example:
I drove to a small village near Frankfurt (4 hour 1 way drive, don't ask about the petrol....) to pick up Synodontis brichardi and especially Raiamas christyi. I entered a store that for me is nothing less than Tuth Ank Amuns tomb.......
picked up Labeo variegatus and Gobiocichla wonderi as well, spotted Amphilius (!) in his showtank and an old Garra congoensis and have been pestering the guy who runs the show of importing those 2 species, he's working on it.
these weren't contaminants, but I never expected to see those fish.
I could easily have spend 700 euro's on fish in there and I would have if I had a fish room........
will be back there.

I could never have that experience from online shopping live fish.
I do got some very bad experiences there.....expensive too. ordering 7 Bathybates to have them arriving with white spot and bacterial infections that no way ever could have developed in the 1 night journey and the owner giving me the finger after I asked for a ferund (5 out of 7 died within 24 hours, 400 euro's down the hatch).
needless to say I hung him out to dry on every forum I could find, but it's not helping with the online shopping world
this was a LARGE name a very well known shop mind, not some obscure con from nowhere.

I've heard many stories since, mostly from his store, but not always.

so if online shopping is the way, then quite a number of these shops including the more famous ones need to clean up their act pronto.

and hate to say it, but when it comes to arranging imports, be it through a shop or a joined up agreement from a bunch of hobbyists, but Africa is still one big money-pit where genuine honest traders are rare as hens teeth and the majority just take your money and make a runner.

if there's any place that really needs a dose of "getting in the 21st century" it is the online shopping world of anything related to Africa.
it'll take hard work and a lot of genuine acts not just intentions to have them get rid of that image.

[wrasse]

Okay Jools so where are you going with this?

You've obviously put at lot of thought into this and you've mentioned 'franchise' and having talked to a couple of retailers. Are you going to orchestrate it? Would you look to introduce/ maintain a quality control?

[Jools]

Okay Jools so where are you going with this?

You've obviously put at lot of thought into this and you've mentioned 'franchise' and having talked to a couple of retailers. Are you going to orchestrate it? Would you look to introduce/ maintain a quality control?

It's just something I keep current but in the back of my mind. Something of a "retirement project" that might be brought forward if I find myself on the dole anytime soon! I spoke to Maidenhead about it at a senior level, but they're, well, didn't see the advantage of it. I tried the model earlier on Planet ("watermart") but it proved to me that a global, catfish led model won't work. Has to be in country or region (like Amazon).

As to quality control, I think that follows the real world model. I mean, if you buy fish that look OK and they are not, then you don't use that retailer again, or use them with caution. So, I currently favour something that is store specific, but that does have the disadvantage of not allowing a search for a species across all retailers.

If something I really like comes along, we'll integrate with it, if not I may build it but I think its a few years yet and not while in my current real job. I do about 45-55 hours a week in that and current about 6-10 hours a week on Planet+AR. I think I'd need to take out about 6-8 months to build something really viable. So, I'd either need a major backer or some other injection of capital. The business model I had (not touched in over a year) estimated about 45K start-up + advertising and a 26 month breakeven point. That drops to a 3 month break-even point if in partnership with a larger chain...

Back to the here and now. I am pretty keen to do the QR code / LFS labels thing though. Then it's a small step to "I saw this fish for sale here" stuff. Then it's a small step to "I bought this fish, automatically add it to my cats"...

Jools

[Neo]

Jool have you been to Riverside in Stirling recently?

No, their second store is near Livingston in a garden center and it is good. Nice range of dry goods but the stock suffers from what Shane mentions in terms of it just being the same as the chains except nice Corys from breeders. Also, a new Dobbies (with aquatics) has opened next door and has, at present, nicer fish.

You should try Aquascene, Airdie (got Seweilla, Sawamba, Scleromystax and super cool Florida sunfish & Corydoras bicolor from them), Outside Inside Aquatics, Haddington (Entomocorus, various Ls, Synodontis contractus, bunch of nice smaller fishes) and the Maidenhead Aquatics on the M8 at Coatbridge has great range of dry goods and nice fishes. For some odd reason I bought a bunch of very well priced horse faced loaches from them.

Jools

I shall give a couple of those a try, its funny you said about the horse face loach, it is the only fish i would say I noticed that was unusual in Riverside that time I was up

[Sam]

Fantastic debate people..

[retro_gk]

On the topic of QRC based shopping; Virtual store in S Korea.

[Jools]

On the topic of QRC based shopping; Virtual store in S Korea.

Now you're talking. When I first encountered QR stores, I thought about estate agents and requesting property schedules direct from the shop window. I also thought that Christmas shopping from billboard ads as I wait for public transport was also a winner.

In our context, imagine an LFS with a few metres of wallspace with all the spares and other things you might need that they don't stock (how often I have walked into an LFS to buy something and "it's out of stock until next Tuesday". I maybe don't mind waiting until next Tuesday, but I do begrudge the repeat journey.

So - would this work? Well, you get to buy the thing, you may get advice and service from the LFS. The retailer gets footfall, a cut of the online purchase and likely spend on other things in store too. And it all gets updated centrally on the "what you bought" server.

Now, expand that to livestock - really I think that's a great model.

Jools