Cory error CW023 and CW014 ?

Incorrect ID? New info to be added, taxonomic revisions and any kind of changes to the data we currently hold in here please!
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Horlack
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Cory error CW023 and CW014 ?

Post by Horlack »

Hello

I think, there is an error.

Corydoras sp. (Cw009), Green Laser Cory
Other name : Peru Green Stripe Cory
http://www.planetcatfish.com/common/spe ... ies_id=274

Corydoras sp. (Cw010) , Gold Laser Cory
Other name : Orange Stripe Cory, Peru Orange Stripe Cory
http://www.planetcatfish.com/common/spe ... ies_id=265

Corydoras sp. (Cw014), Orange Laser Cory
Other name : CW023, Red Stripe Cory
http://www.planetcatfish.com/common/spe ... es_id=1131

Nature Magazine N°09660 2011 : Mitochondrial tree, with Isotope and morphometrics,
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3gLn2 ... 82Rms/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3gLn2 ... dHLTA/view

Image
The scientists have detected really 4 species:
- Corydoras Sp Aeneus CW??? Orange laser (maybe old CW023)
- Corydoras Sp Aeneus CW010 gold laser
- Corydoras Sp Aeneus CW009 Green laser
- Corydoras Sp Aeneus Peru (Red Laser CW014)

In http://www.planetcatfish.com/common/spe ... ies_id=265
The only right name is : Gold Laser Cory
These other names, are false : Orange Stripe Cory, Peru Orange Stripe Cory. Orange It is for another cory on Mitochondrial tree.

http://www.planetcatfish.com/common/spe ... es_id=1131
The only right name is : Red Laser Cory
These other names are false : CW023, Red Stripe Cory.
The CW023 exist really ! CW023 is not CW014

I think, you need to recreate Cat-eLog for CW023, named Orange Laser Cory
You think Red and Orange is the same thing (CW014=CW023), it is false. It'is really 2 species.
Orange Laser Cory and Red Laser Cory, have the same Red Stripe, but not the same color on the body.
We cant use other name " Red Stripe" for Orange Laser Cory and Red Laser Cory, There will be confusion.
It is maybe, with this confusion of the same other name that you think CW014=CW023
Last edited by Horlack on Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cory error ?

Post by Horlack »

I try to explain.

Table of RGB (Red/Green/Blue)
https://vela.astro.ulg.ac.be/Vela/Colors/rgb.html

For Orange Laser Cory, he have Red and Green genes, but not Blue genes (or not activated)
Color Orange = 255;140;0 => 100% Red + 58% Green = DarkOrange
Color Orange = 255;165;0 => 100% Red + 64% Green = Orange

For Green Laser Cory, he have mostly Green genes, a bit Red genes (or partially), and not Blue genes (or not activated)
Color Green = 127;255;0 => 49% Red + 100% Green = Green luminous

For Gold Laser Cory, he have mostly Green and Red genes, and not Blue genes (or not activated)
Color Yellow = 238;238;0 => 93% Red + 93% Green = Yellow
Color Yellow = 205;173;0 => 80% Red + 67% Green = Gold

For Red Laser Cory, he have mostly Red genes, a bit green genes (or very partially), and not Blue genes (or not activated)
Color Red = 205;0;0 => 80% Red + 0 % Green = Red

Image

It is only genetic. With orange color genes, we can have, Gold, Green or Red.
But the inverse it'is impossible or hard (recessive gene)
That's why The Orange Laser Cory is the top of the phylogenetic tree, and the 3 others below.
The one, is the father of the other (genetic deviation does by Dr Juan Montoya Burgos in Nature Magazine N°09660 2011)
Image


it is the same principle that shrimp
ImageImage

I understand, it is difficult to do the difference between Orange Laser Cory and Red Laser Cory, because they have the same red strip line.
simple exemple : the food => If the cory eat a lot of protein (artemia, shrimp, etc), his color (belly) go to the light-brown
Food, biotope, ground, etc... modify the skin pigment.

But Red (DNA color genes) + light Brown (skin pigment) = OrangeRed. Here's how easily confuse a Red Laser Cory with Orange Laser Cory.

I think, you understand the problem :
Red Laser Cory + Food, biotope, ground, various environmental factors, etc... modify the skin pigment = can do "Orange" body
Red Laser Cory + Food, biotope, ground, various environmental factors, etc... modify the skin pigment = can do "OrangeRed" body
Orange Laser Cory + Food, biotope, ground, various environmental factors, etc... modify the skin pigment = can do "Red" body
Orange Laser Cory + Food, biotope, ground, various environmental factors, etc... modify the skin pigment = can do "OrangeRed" body

To really do a difference between Red Laser Cory and Orange Laser Cory, you must differentiate the true color of natural basis (DNA genes), and the color added (various environmental factors => skin pigment). Only and always the color DNA stay. Other colors can be modified by various environmental factors (food). Mixing the DNA color(fix) and environmental color added (various) can show another color.
Last edited by Horlack on Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:42 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Cory error CW023 and CW014 ?

Post by Mol_PMB »

Thanks for the very interesting links to the academic studies on Corydoras genetics, species lineages etc.
Can you recommend other papers on this subject?
Many thanks,
Paul
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Re: Cory error CW023 and CW014 ?

Post by Horlack »

Or other solution :
Gold Laser Cory, Green Laser Cory and Red Laser Cory arenot really species.
Orange Laser Cory exist and it is a species with main color = Orange.
The others color -red, gold, green-, will be a variety of orange. A bit like a variety of selection breeding. But made by Nature.
  • Orange Laser Cory
  • Orange Laser Cory variety Gold
  • Orange Laser Cory variety Green
  • Orange Laser Cory variety Red
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Re: Cory error CW023 and CW014 ?

Post by Jools »

Horlack,

Thanks also for your PM on the subject. I'll have a look at it, but the position taken was from the advice of @Coryman who worked closely with the author of the paper in nature - so I think the key first step is to find out IF the orange stripe cory mentioned in the cladogram is acutally CW023 in the first place. Otherwise all of this is rather academic...

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Re: Cory error CW023 and CW014 ?

Post by Coryman »

Firstly the original CW014 Red stripe (Not a laser sp) and CW023 Orange stripe (Not a laser sp), were two different groups of fish purchased a different times but from the same store (pier Aquatics) The CW014 "red stripe" had a very red stripe, which was enhanced by the black base of the tank they were kept in. The CW023 "orange stripe, were a deep orange over the same black base. However over natural fine light sand both groups looked very close, with the CW014 having a little darker stripe and the body was also appeared a little slimmer. After a while I thought that it was just the effect of the substrate that caused the difference and concluded that they were one and the same species, but having another look at the above evidence I am now not so sure. To be certain I will make some enquiries and fine out exactly what the DNA does say.
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Re: Cory error CW023 and CW014 ?

Post by Horlack »

Thanks for your answer Ian :)

The subject is not simple. Our human vision can be a large error factor . Only DNA can answer definitively.
I have a very serious doubt on these corys. That's why, I submit the question.

It is a bit, the same problem with the butterflies (or other species).
For a long time they thought it was the same species. However recently , with DNA analysis , it was demonstrated that it was separate species, but the same pattern/skin ( As Malleti and Elevatus very hard to do the differences, or, Napeogenes inachia and Ithomia Amarilla). This is called "convergent evolution". Our eyes can not solve everything.
Image
Image

2 cases who are problems or multiples errors :
- 1 specie, is really 2 species (as convergent evolution, as a bit, Corydoras Adolfoi / Corydoras Duplicareus)
- 4 differents species, are really 1 specie but 4 variety (as shrimp, with recessive gene)

==================
The evidence with my corydoras :
  • 1 Line : Between Red, Orange, OrangeRed. Hard to say
  • All Body : Green entirely
  • Belly : Light brown
  • All Fin : between Light brown and light orange
Between CW009, CW010, CW014, CW23. I'am not sure. Buy in shop, with the name "Corydoras Green Laser - wild"
Image

but,
camera with flash (high light) => more orange + a bit metallic green + An intermediate line hidden appears slowly
  • 2 Lines : One visible line brown/orange dark. One hidden line light brown.
  • All Body : more orange + a bit metallic green
  • Belly : White, with a bit Light brown
  • All Fin : between Light brown and light orange
Image

And finally
camera with flash (high light) + intense light above (230 Watts - 15000 lumens) => Totally OrangeRed
You can almost see the internal anatomy of the fish, so the light is bright :d
  • 2 Lines : brown/orange dark, almost dark red. Hard to say
  • All Body : Orange entirely
  • Belly : Orange entirely
  • All Fin : between Light brown and light orange
Image

Conclusion :
The green body is false. The green is transformed by OrangeRed with intense light.
The green is make by Food, biotope, ground, various environmental factors, etc...
And big discovery : it has an intermediate line, hidden to the human eye by simple light. @-) @-) @-)
This intermediate OrangeRed line is hidden under the green body (skin/pigment)
With differents lights, you have 1st picture, near sp CW009, and finally 3th picture, near sp. CW014. The problem : it is the same cory. 8-}
Image

I think, you understand, i have a serious doubt on CW009, CW010, CW014, CW23 :-S
In the same time, this cory have green, orange and red color, and 1 visible line, and 1 hidden line
Horlack wrote:It is only genetic. With orange color genes, we can have, Gold, Green or Red.
[...]Food, biotope, ground, etc... modify the skin pigment/pattern.
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