breeding Synodontis polli

[worton[pl]]

Hello,

I have a group of 6 Synodontis polli.
3 males and 3 females. Recently females get really plump ;).
A friend of mine has spawned his own pollis.
Here is a movie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9Eq-mL-hIE

After talk with him I'm sure that catfish were trying to put eggs into shell.
So I wonder which species of Cichlid should work the best.
I need something that lives or spawn in shells and for sure in huge group of shells for easy aiming ;).
So my bet is on L. callipterus.
Another species are Lepidiolamprologus attenuatus or Lepidolamprologus sp. "meeli kipilli" since they spawn in shells (in aquariums, I'm not sure about Tanganyika) however both female and male stays out of shell.
In nature in territory of Lamprologus callipterus very often lives harem of Lamprologus multifasciatus.
I was thinking why male callipterus accept another fish in his own territory and I think it may be some kind of cooperation.
Since multifasciatus is much smaller and easly can enter any shell it may eat eggs of catfish guarding this way babies of callipterus from eating by young Synodontis and callipterus is protecting harem of multifasciatus since it is much bigger .
What do you guys think? Or maybe I'm totally wrong and there is no way that Synodontis polli is using shell-dwellers for hosts?

Regards.

[Birger]

A friend of mine has spawned his own pollis.

Did he happen to get any young or was it just the spawning action?

Or maybe I'm totally wrong and there is no way that Synodontis polli is using shell-dwellers for hosts?

Sure looks like they are trying in that video
Are you just trying to get them to spawn period. Or are you trying to prove this will work with the shell-dwellers.
Why don't you set up your shell-dwellers at one end of the tank and still set up a marble trap at the other.

Birger

[worton[pl]]

Hey,

I'm just wondering which species of shell-dweller should I use.
My friend's pollis spawn regulary 3 days (always 3 days) after his calvus spawn.
No he is not really excited about this event and he didn't even try to raise babies.
Did you mean a marble trap that is used with lucipinnis? I will need huge pot then because my "monsters" are something around 20 cm long .

[Birger]

My friend's pollis spawn regulary 3 days (always 3 days) after his calvus spawn.

That is interesting about the three days.

Another species are Lepidiolamprologus attenuatus or Lepidolamprologus sp. "meeli kipilli" since they spawn in shells (in aquariums, I'm not sure about Tanganyika) however both female and male stays out of shell.

If these would work you may get a higher survival rate of eggs and young

In nature in territory of Lamprologus callipterus very often lives harem of Lamprologus multifasciatus.

This would make for an interesting tank overall if the same thing could go on in an aquarium.

I will need huge pot then because my "monsters" are something around 20 cm long

I see your point... it is possible to do, but maybe after you try with the shell-dwellers and/if that does not work for some reason.

Birger

[worton[pl]]

Hey,

This would make for an interesting tank overall if the same thing could go on in an aquarium.

2 of my friends has already tried this. It works fine if there is a lot of shells. They use about 100 shells

[Phyllonemus]

Another species are Lepidiolamprologus attenuatus or Lepidolamprologus sp. "meeli kipilli" since they spawn in shells (in aquariums, I'm not sure about Tanganyika) however both female and male stays out of shell.

If these would work you may get a higher survival rate of eggs and young

That's Interesting

[Richard B]

Sorry about the late contributiuons

In the video it seems the polli are trying to use the spawning calvus/shells as a "protected site" for their eggs. I am of the opinion this is not the norm as their eggs are small & in large numbers which sits better with egg-scattering like petricola, as opposed to few large eggs like multis.

I have heard form the guy i got my sp.2 from that this species will scatter or try & deposit eggs close to the site of egg laying cichlids so they get indirect protection - i think this is similar to what the polli are trying to do.

I think smaller shelldwellers would be a bad choice as their breeding may be hindered by large 'excited' pollis. If you go for a 'parasitic' breeding attempt larger shell dwellers would be a better option, particularly if there was a larger hareem.

[Birger]

my "monsters" are something around 20 cm long .

I am looking at getting a group of six S.polli...and I understand there are different variants that get sold as polli.

I am trying to get a definite idea on the eventual size.

Warton, the Cat-eLog gives 100mm SL for polli, Seegers gives 150TL, yet you give the measurement above.

Do yours look the same as the ones in the Cat-eLog?

Richard or anyone else with polli, what is the length of yours.

Thanks, Birger

[worton[pl]]

Hello Birger,

mine are from 7 cm to over 20 cm (the alpha male is still growing, others pollis also but not so fast, especially the smallest one growth rate is not high). They have the body shape, and general remarks as polli in cat-elog however mine are shiny green in body coloration.
You may see all of them here:

http://www.suephoto.com/index.php/galeria/index/5/344/

Richard - you suggestion is inspiring however I must say no to one thing.
Pollis cannot produce big eggs like multis because shell-dwellers and lying eggs are not as big as mouth-brooding cichlids.
Multis are specialized in mouth-brooding cichlids so thet have to produce eggs as big as cichlids otherwise no fish would fall for a trick.
However I'm guessing that eggs-scattering on spawning cichlids territory is more possible that parasiting shell-dwellers .
Small shell-dwellers are really non-stop alert fish so they would probably not have a problem in recognise they own eggs from polli's eggs.

[Richard B]

my biggest is about 140mm.

That said, i have 3 variants & none of them is what i would refer to a a real polli. I have a couple of "black kapampa" which appears to be a dwarf form & very dark grey, a single 'elongated' form which quite brown, & a single "flat" form which is very dark grey - this one clearly has a totally different body shape to the other that are the same size.

If you are after a group i would suggest buying them all at the same time from a single imported batch. This way you hould get all the same, & avoid unidentified species that get lumped in as polli

EDIT - oh yeah & a trio of Sp.2 the white zambian polli, but this one is easy to separate out from the rest

[Birger]

If you are after a group i would suggest buying them all at the same time from a single imported batch. This way you hould get all the same, & avoid unidentified species that get lumped in as polli

That is exactly how it will happen.

This is the first time I have seen polli available here(in two places) and advertised as such.

They are very darkly washed out and there isn't much contrast to their coloration.

This is how they were described to me.I have not personally seen them yet, but the person that would pick them up for me knows more or less what a real one should look like.
They should be close to the ones in the Cat-eLog with a description like that.

Birger

[Richard B]

can the dealer supply a photo at all?

[Birger]

A couple of quick shots of a few of my 7 new polli

The largest right now(dark one below) is just over 9 cm SL

[Birger]

Notice anything odd about this one...

Last one for now

Birger

[worton[pl]]

Hey,

little skinny but real thing for sure .
Third one has barble deformation?

Regards.

[Richard B]

good lookin' fish - i'm feelin' a tad jealous

[Birger]

little skinny but real thing for sure .
Third one has barble deformation?

Yes they need a little fattening but are relatively healthy considering what they have been through.

The barbel is forked will try to get a better picture...a bit odd

good lookin' fish - i'm feelin' a tad jealous

This, from someone with grannies...I am the jealous one

Birger

[worton[pl]]

The barbel is forked will try to get a better picture...a bit odd

One of my WC, probably tanganyicae, has this kind of deformation as well. Barbel on other side of the head is however normal.
What about your polli? Is it symetric?

Regards.

[Richard B]

[quote="Birger

good lookin' fish - i'm feelin' a tad jealous

This, from someone with grannies...I am the jealous one

Birger[/quote]

A Granny is a Granny at the end of the day (still awesome though) but with Polli there is soooo much variation which interests me immensely - when i get off my ass & get photos of mine, you'll see 3 variations - none of which is the same as yours

[Dinyar]

A Granny is a Granny at the end of the day (still awesome though) but with Polli there is soooo much variation which interests me immensely - when i get off my ass & get photos of mine, you'll see 3 variations - none of which is the same as yours

I'm curious to find out what S. ilebrevis looks like in life. The photos of the preserved type specimens look close to S. polli. Maybe one of yours is the elusive ilebrevis, Richard?

[Richard B]

A Granny is a Granny at the end of the day (still awesome though) but with Polli there is soooo much variation which interests me immensely - when i get off my ass & get photos of mine, you'll see 3 variations - none of which is the same as yours

I'm curious to find out what S. ilebrevis looks like in life. The photos of the preserved type specimens look close to S. polli. Maybe one of yours is the elusive ilebrevis, Richard?

Apart from the 3 "variants" of polli i also have lucipinnis & 'forms' of petricola - a couple of which seem to be neither pet's or luci's which maybe ilebrevis - the pic in seegers looks halfway between the two with polli influences -despite the new sp. from Dec '06 i am personally of the opinion that there are a lot more species to be confirmed/described from the lake.

in terms of providing pics, my problem is that approx 50% of the display tank volume is rockwork & to get a pic will take a good long while (which i don't have at the moment) - however sometime soon(-ish) i'll be replacing the rockwork with specific slate caves to reduce the weight & be structured to give seclusion but greater visibility.

I might know a little bit about a few thins tanganyikan but i'd like some more erudite peeps to give opinions when i finally get some pics if they can sustain the wait

[Birger]

but with Polli there is soooo much variation which interests me immensely - when i get off my ass & get photos of mine, you'll see 3 variations - none of which is the same as yours

Okay...that I can understand

i am personally of the opinion that there are a lot more species to be confirmed/described from the lake.

I have no doubt there are more species yet to be described but I also think there are regional variants of different species.

Another (not very good) shot of the one with the forked barbel

Birger

[syno321]

I'd just like to add my observations to this post. First, multipunctatus eggs are far smaller than their host mouthbrooders', and as such are very easy to distinguish from their hosts'. Therefore, if the polli eggs are of comparable size, then they would be very near the same size as the shell-dweller eggs and somewhat indistinguishable in size, perhaps providing them with a form of cuckoo protection from the shell-dweller parents. Second, I think that the 3 day post spawn timing sounds very logical, as if the polli eggs hatch sooner than the shell-dweller eggs( 24 - 48 hrs. ? ), then the fry may hatch at the same time or very closely timed, presenting a clutch of similarly sized fry for the shell-dwellers to brood, perhaps once again presenting the host shell-dwellers with an indistinguishable parenting situation. Just a theory?

[worton[pl]]

Hey,

well multipunctata eggs are 3 times the size of pollis ;). But I will try with shell dwellers (L. calipterus) and laying eggs cichlids (altolamprologus).

Birger this with forked barble has whitish leading ray of dorsal fin or is it just a photo? You really can get a headache just from looking at tang synos.

[Phyllonemus]

Hello Birger,

mine are from 7 cm to over 20 cm (the alpha male is still growing, others pollis also but not so fast, especially the smallest one growth rate is not high). They have the body shape, and general remarks as polli in cat-elog however mine are shiny green in body coloration.
.

I'm confused, real Polli's aren't getting that big as 20cm, or am I wrong

[Richard B]

Another (not very good) shot of the one with the forked barbel

polli 018.jpg

Birger

Hmmm, what's the fish on the left?? White leading dorsal & pectorals

[Birger]

Hmmm, what's the fish on the left?? White leading dorsal & pectorals

I have some lucipinnis in with them because I was thinking they might need others that are used to feeding on the foods I give but the new polli are probably less shy than the lucipinnis already, and out and about in the open more.

By the way syno321(post above) was the friend that did me a huge favor and offered to pick these polli up for me and went way out of his way to deliver them to my door, thanks Paul.

Birger

[Richard B]

Nice one syno321!

[Birger]

I'm confused, real Polli's aren't getting that big as 20cm, or am I wrong

I think this quote from Richard answers your question, there seems to be still some research that needs to be done

but with Polli there is soooo much variation which interests me immensely - when i get off my ass & get photos of mine, you'll see 3 variations - none of which is the same as yours

That makes Richards three, my one, and Warton's "giants" ...five possible variants


Birger

[sidguppy]

I think the really big ones are from the dhonti tribe; dhonti, irsacae and true polli are very hard to tell apart

but real polli are brown, not grey. mature ones are distinctive brownish like very strong coffee.

dhonti's and their close kin are grey with spots and have a more elongated head.

then there's the issue of the larger petricola varieties. certain petricola varieties or species have large heads, broad mouths and adults get very dark sometimes


petricola and assorted species can be separated from dhonti and assorted species by the dorsal spine

in petricola etc this is white or light, in dhonti etc this is dark

polli is tricky, cause most specimen have a dark or black dorsal spine, but often it has a white tip or light posterior edge wich tends to darken when the animal grows.

I agree that it's a mess; but I know 1 thing: Worton's group is a mix of at least 3 species.

I've had eggs of the true polli, the brown stubby eurystomus one, and these eggs are a lot bigger than the eggs of petricola etc. about 1mm.