What can be wrong?!?!

All posts regarding the care and breeding of these catfishes from South America.
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jasneaker
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What can be wrong?!?!

Post by jasneaker »

It's a sad day that I lost my L24 juvi. Just got him last Friday and he had been behaving/hiding and eating normally until yesterday after a water change. I did lose a few other plecos in the same tank a while ago, 2 L11s (thought they were attacked by the royal acaras I had in the same tank back then) and 1 L48 (it was quite small and thought the male bristlenose beat him up fighting for the cave).

I have been keeping plecos in another tank for years, L397, L46, L91, L15, L14, L119, never lost even a single one. But not much luck with this tank. I wanna say the water parameters in both tanks are quite similar, the other tank does have more hiding space and is bigger but other than that there isn't really much difference.

1. Water parameters
Temperature range. 28 C
pH. 6-6.2
Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite, levels. 0
Water change frequency 1-2 times per week 30%

2. Tank set up
Size 40g
Substrate. Sand
Filtration. sponge and tidal 55
Other tank mates. bristlenose, altums juvi and chubby plecos juvi
How long has it been set-up? over 1 year
When was the last new fish added? last Friday
Foods used and frequency? Frozen brine shrimp and bug bites

Never really thought about the water as all other fish were good. I noticed that the L24 came to the surface and didn't hide after the water change yesterday, which should probably signal a warning but the altums and other plecos were all good so I didn't really think too much. This morning I found the poor thing not moving at all. I use RO water to do water change, add in boiling water to adjust the water temperature. Added a little stress guard but no other chemicals. I don't remember if I did the water change before the other plecos died. But there gotta be something wrong if only a bristlenose and 2 chubby plecos survived. All other non-pleco fish are good though. Is there any water change rules for plecos? Any suggestions are appreciated.
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Re: What can be wrong?!?!

Post by Jools »

What size was the L24? - juvi can be quite a broad description in this large species. Could be it was weakened from the move to your tank. If up at surface then it's usually something respiratory (it'll be breathing hard) or otherwise close to death due to starvation, bullying, a whole host of reasons.

Any sign of bloated stomach or damaged fins?

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jasneaker
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Re: What can be wrong?!?!

Post by jasneaker »

Jools wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:12 am What size was the L24? - juvi can be quite a broad description in this large species. Could be it was weakened from the move to your tank. If up at surface then it's usually something respiratory (it'll be breathing hard) or otherwise close to death due to starvation, bullying, a whole host of reasons.

Any sign of bloated stomach or damaged fins?

Jools
It was about 4". I wanna say before the water change it was quite healthy and ate pretty well. No bloating or damaged fins. The tankmates are a male bristlenose, 2 small chubby plecos, and quarter size altum juvis. Didn't see any bully. I was actually a little worried about the chubbies due to the sizes.

Like I said, I did notice it came out from hiding after the water change. And now I think about it, those other plecos I lost also came out before died. I am just not sure if I did the water change. Looks like it might be something respiratory. Was it caused by the water change? But I did the same thing in the other tank and never had any casualties from the water change.
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Re: What can be wrong?!?!

Post by Jools »

Probably something in the water change given it wasn't starvation or bullying. Unless the receiving tanks are absolutely identical (volume, temp, water conditions, stocking levels) and so on then you can't really draw parallels that one was OK and the other wasn't. Unless it drops the temp a lot more than 5C, I wouldn't worry about adding boiling water to your mix - rain doesn't arrive hot - and a cool water change can be advantageous.

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Re: What can be wrong?!?!

Post by jasneaker »

Jools wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:18 pm Probably something in the water change given it wasn't starvation or bullying. Unless the receiving tanks are absolutely identical (volume, temp, water conditions, stocking levels) and so on then you can't really draw parallels that one was OK and the other wasn't. Unless it drops the temp a lot more than 5C, I wouldn't worry about adding boiling water to your mix - rain doesn't arrive hot - and a cool water change can be advantageous.

Jools
Thanks! I will try to use the aged water to do my next water change so I don't have to add in boiling water. But I live in Edmonton, Canada, the new RO water from the tab is too cold to direct add I think. I will also test the water parameters after my next water change to see if anything changes.

Is there anything else you can think of that that might cause the respiratory issue?
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Re: What can be wrong?!?!

Post by Jools »

When I used RO (I stopped, too much hassle/expense) I used to aerate it before adding - that was it. Also, maybe something in your kettle?

On the cold water front, I live in Scotland, not Canada cold but certainly not warm. Why not try measuring the temp of teh water before you add it and then you can calculate how much it'll actually drop the temp. Or leave it to stand overnight with an airstone in it (for no reason other than it was always good, this is what I did).



Cheers,

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Re: What can be wrong?!?!

Post by jasneaker »

Jools wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:17 pm When I used RO (I stopped, too much hassle/expense) I used to aerate it before adding - that was it. Also, maybe something in your kettle?

On the cold water front, I live in Scotland, not Canada cold but certainly not warm. Why not try measuring the temp of teh water before you add it and then you can calculate how much it'll actually drop the temp. Or leave it to stand overnight with an airstone in it (for no reason other than it was always good, this is what I did).



Cheers,

Jools
I thought about the RO water as well and did some research online. There are different opinions, some says aerating can bring back impurities etc. But I guess it's no harm to let the water sit a while before water change. Especially I am keeping mostly South American fish, discus, altums, plecos, etc., and my faucet water is too hard for them. I think I will keep using RO water.
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Re: What can be wrong?!?!

Post by Stephen59 »

Just looking at the L024 on this website it says tank water temperature of 23-27C (73-80F).
jasneaker wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:01 pm It's a sad day that I lost my L24 juvi.

1. Water parameters
Temperature range. 28 C
pH. 6-6.2
Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite, levels. 0
Water change frequency 1-2 times per week 30%
Maybe at 28C is too warm ?

Just a thought
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Re: What can be wrong?!?!

Post by Jools »

Not really, it's more about DO. Given high DO, they can take higher temp - but what we tend to show here is a general range.

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Re: What can be wrong?!?!

Post by jasneaker »

Jools wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:11 pm Not really, it's more about DO. Given high DO, they can take higher temp - but what we tend to show here is a general range.

Jools
I read some more online and I am more convinced that the amount of boiling water I added might cause the problem. I did another water change today with aged RO water. Tested the water and all parameters were good. Hoping to get another 1 or 2 plecos in a week or so and will be super careful when do the water change. Maybe change less than 30%? 15-20%?
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Re: What can be wrong?!?!

Post by Birger »

Come to the meeting on the 2nd of November of the Aquarium Club of Edmonton, introduce yourself to me and I can introduce you to someone that uses RO water all the time and has for many years.
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Re: What can be wrong?!?!

Post by jasneaker »

Birger wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:14 am Come to the meeting on the 2nd of November of the Aquarium Club of Edmonton, introduce yourself to me and I can introduce you to someone that uses RO water all the time and has for many years.
Will try to make it. It would be nice to meet with more hobbyists experienced in plecos and discus.
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Re: What can be wrong?!?!

Post by Stephen59 »

Stephen59 wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:20 pm Just looking at the L024 on this website it says tank water temperature of 23-27C (73-80F).
jasneaker wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:01 pm It's a sad day that I lost my L24 juvi.

1. Water parameters
Temperature range. 28 C
pH. 6-6.2
Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite, levels. 0
Water change frequency 1-2 times per week 30%
Maybe at 28C is too warm ?

Just a thought
Jools wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:11 pm Not really, it's more about DO. Given high DO, they can take higher temp - but what we tend to show here is a general range.

Jools
If the general range of temperatures is 23-27C then I find that the best temperature long-term is somewhere around the middle of the range which would be around 25C long-term.
I have kept tropical fish for quite a few years and kept them (tetras, cichlids (SA), corydoras, plecos etc..) at around the middle of their temperature range with hardly any losses and no diseases.
I agree that many fish can take higher temperatures but that is only short-term (seasonal variations) and not long-term.
Fish (generally) have evolved to live in their environment, some fish need cool water (below 24C) whilst other need warmer water (above 24C).
I personally would not keep Discus (which need warmer water) with say Corydoras loxozonus (which needs cooler water). They both come from different environments and therefore their requirements are different.
This also applies to plecos; all plecos are not the same.

Just my view.

Can I ask jasneaker, what other fish species are in the same aquarium as the L024's ?
550L aquarium based on Rio Negro in Brazil.
120L breeding aquarium (temporary stocked)
jasneaker
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Re: What can be wrong?!?!

Post by jasneaker »

Stephen59 wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:09 am
Stephen59 wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:20 pm Just looking at the L024 on this website it says tank water temperature of 23-27C (73-80F).
jasneaker wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:01 pm It's a sad day that I lost my L24 juvi.

1. Water parameters
Temperature range. 28 C
pH. 6-6.2
Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite, levels. 0
Water change frequency 1-2 times per week 30%
Maybe at 28C is too warm ?

Just a thought
Jools wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:11 pm Not really, it's more about DO. Given high DO, they can take higher temp - but what we tend to show here is a general range.

Jools
If the general range of temperatures is 23-27C then I find that the best temperature long-term is somewhere around the middle of the range which would be around 25C long-term.
I have kept tropical fish for quite a few years and kept them (tetras, cichlids (SA), corydoras, plecos etc..) at around the middle of their temperature range with hardly any losses and no diseases.
I agree that many fish can take higher temperatures but that is only short-term (seasonal variations) and not long-term.
Fish (generally) have evolved to live in their environment, some fish need cool water (below 24C) whilst other need warmer water (above 24C).
I personally would not keep Discus (which need warmer water) with say Corydoras loxozonus (which needs cooler water). They both come from different environments and therefore their requirements are different.
This also applies to plecos; all plecos are not the same.

Just my view.

Can I ask jasneaker, what other fish species are in the same aquarium as the L024's ?
There are altums, a male bristlenose pleco, 2 chubby plecos, and 2 farlowella (twig catfish).
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Stephen59
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Re: What can be wrong?!?!

Post by Stephen59 »

jasneaker wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:28 pm
Stephen59 wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:09 am
Can I ask jasneaker, what other fish species are in the same aquarium as the L024's ?
There are altums, a male bristlenose pleco, 2 chubby plecos, and 2 farlowella (twig catfish).
Thank you.
The altums (Pterophyllum altum) need the higher temperature (28C/30C) whilst angelfish (Pterophyllum scalare) are fine at 25C/26C.
The bristlenose usually do better at lower temperatures (23C).
The farlowella (twig catfish) would be better at a slightly cooler temp (26C)
The L024 plecos would be better at a slightly cooler temp (25C/26C)

Do you have a pic of your altums ? I've only seen angelfish (Pterophyllum scalare) in the UK.

All the best
550L aquarium based on Rio Negro in Brazil.
120L breeding aquarium (temporary stocked)
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