New L204s--Please help verify sex

[drpleco]

So, it's drpleco now,
Congrats on the degree.

hey thanks! I used to keep just fancy goldfish, but now I'm a hardcore pleco guy. It's definitely nice to have fish that don't float or otherwise get sick all the time. As far as the dr, that's just my own pretentiousness shining through. Can't help it - wish I could.

Unfortunately my psychologist skills are useless for the fishkeeping, but the fishkeeping skills have definitely improved the psychologist end of things. Having them to play with has gone a long way to help manage stress. Of course, sometimes the fish are stress-inducing, like when trying to sex L204's.

To get back on topic - are any straight down, top-view shots available of the 'female?'

[leej24]

Here are two pictures I took on Sunday of the "female". They aren't that clear and I will take more when I move them. I also plan on putting some cory cats in there with them along with some Endler's Livebearers. Would this be okay? They don't eat other smaller fish, right? I also read that they might eat plants if I put plants in the tank. I have some java fern growing on some of my driftwood, so I am going to lose the java ferns if I put the driftwood in there with them. I'm sorry for such questions and I apologize if these questions have been answered elsewhere in this forum. I'm probably not doing a good job of looking for them.

[apistomaster]

Based on my vast and proven incompetence at sexing L204, I see 2 males.
Photo 2 appears to be a male feeling more dominant than the other at this time. Seems to have more bristles showing on the main pectoral fin spikes.

[leej24]

Both of the pictures are of the same fish. The second picture was taken about 15minutes after the first one when the sun started to set.

[MatsP]

So, I'd call the second fish a male.

--
Mats

[leej24]

Both pictures are of the same fish (the smaller of the two bigger ones ) so you guys are telling me the two biggest ones I have are males. Sounds good then.

[krazyGeoff]

Hi,
Have you seen this post?
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =5&t=23009

Janne was correct with his suggestions. Tank 1 subject 4 and tank 2 subject 2 are both females, the rest are males. Since then I have obtained two more females.

It has taken me a while to figure out what led to the suggestions but here is my thought on that. The shape of the fish from the leading edge of the ventral fin to the tail, is more rounded in the females. There are males there that have quite a girth (quite solid), but their girth is between the leading edge of the pectoral fin, and the leading edge of the ventral fin.

Have a look at the photos on my post above, and you will see what I mean. It seems rather obvious to me now??

I think that both of the fish you have posted are males. Your second one appears to have the same shape as Tank 1 Subjects 1 and 3 in the referenced post above which I thought were females at the time I made the enquiry.

Cheers

Geoff

[leej24]

Thanks krazyGeoff for that link,

I haven't seen it yet, but I've been looking at it since then and I am still very confused about their sex. I'm not planning on breeding them anytime soon, but I always do like to have both sexes when it comes to raising fish. They seem to be doing fine and don't fight at all. Thanks for the information.

Could I go off on looking at their vents? The article under Shane's World in the article by Janne stated that females have a more oval vent whereas males have a more blunt rounded vent.

[apistomaster]

Thanks krazyGeoff for that link,

I haven't seen it yet, but I've been looking at it since then and I am still very confused about their sex. I'm not planning on breeding them anytime soon, but I always do like to have both sexes when it comes to raising fish. They seem to be doing fine and don't fight at all. Thanks for the information.

Could I go off on looking at their vents? The article under Shane's World in the article by Janne stated that females have a more oval vent whereas males have a more blunt rounded vent.

I think they will only show you theirs' if you show them yours'.

[leej24]

LOL! Very funny!

[krazyGeoff]

Hi,

I'm not planning on breeding them anytime soon, but I always do like to have both sexes when it comes to raising fish. They seem to be doing fine and don't fight at all.

I too like to have both sexes. Makes the challange of breeding them easier
Mine never fought, well not until there was something to fight over that is, like a nice lady , or that premo cave.

Could I go off on looking at their vents? The article under Shane's World in the article by Janne stated that females have a more oval vent whereas males have a more blunt rounded vent.

From what I have read about the vents there are two points I would like to make:
1: The vents don't really show, are not really discernable, until the fish are fully mature. (well... mature enough to be sexed by the other indicators)
2: The vent differences seem to be quie generic to cave breeders.

Post up the pictures of your other specimins if you like, and then we can have a crack at letting you know what they are. Then in 6 months or so, you will know how correct we were. Pictures from the top if you can.

Keep in mind that I had to seperate all but one of the males from the females, but now with 4 females I will be able to set up 2 tanks to try and breed them. Not that I am having much luck at the moment. I'll have to try and find that "fly fishing" patience I used to have

Cheers

Geoff

[leej24]

Thanks krazyGeoff,

I will post pictures of the the two of the ones I'm uncertain of since I know the biggest one should be a male being almost 6" with heavy and thick odontodes (plus the hiding in the cave). The other two I will post up after school. I feel like these fish have been underfed or they weren't given a good diet so they look "thin". I've been doing my research plus the expertise in this site to give them the best since they are my first fancy pleco outside of the L144 and calicos (maybe not so fancy??).

[leej24]

Here are some new pictures.

The biggest one is a for sure male. The next biggest fish is pictured below and the next biggest one is below that one. The smallest one is about 3" and probably too small to sex.
This first picture is of the "female" that I received. It is 4" total length.



Here is the smaller one. It is 3.5".

[krazyGeoff]

Hi,
Thanks for the extra pictures.
I think that all the fish that you have posted pictures on in this thread are males. The last two are in their early teens.
There have been three different fish only?

I'll try and explain it visually.
Here is your smallest fish

Your 3.5 inch

Here is a thin female of mine that is quite long

My 4.5 inch

Here is your 4 inch "female"

Your 4 inch

I have used this thin female of mine (pictures were when I got her) for this example because I know she is a female, rather than a dormant / sub dominant male, yet she could be a male if a: I didn't know she was a female, and b: she was about the size of your smallest one.

So what is the difference you ask.........
Well, if you look down on these three photos then your two have a different shape. The general shape of yours, as I see it, is that the head is quite broad. From the level of the eyes / Leading edge of pectoral ray, the body goes straight back across the pectoral fin, and then narrows on the way back to the tail. Generally the body is at its widest at about the gill plates. The odontodes on the posterior of the body are distinct and in straight lines.
The shape of mine is very similar except that I think the Body is still getting wider in the region of the pectoral fin, therefore the gill plates are not the widest point of the body. Also as my fish is "bigger" than yours I would expect to see distinct odontodes on the posterior of the body of some description if it was a male, especially since it was kept with other members of the same species at the time of the photo.
Also I have seen in the fishes "puberty" the bushy odontodes on the posterior of the body in males start out as distinct lines of odontodes which become more pronounced and wisker like as the fish matures.
The difference in the odontodes on the posterior of the body in males and females, is: The males are thick like facial hair on a human, and the females are like strands of silk.

The eyes of your ones are not sunken, so I think that they are healthy looking.
I hope this helps.
Cheers

Geoff

[leej24]

Thanks krazyGeoff,

This does help a lot. Thanks for your knowledge. I do have 4 total and yes the pictures I've posted are of only 3 of the 4 I have since the smallest one is too small yet to sex. If this is the case then the 2 next biggest ones are potential "males". Oh darn! That means I will have to get more in the next few months after they've had some time to settle down and to see whether they've grown any more since they've been with me. We'll just have to wait and see. I will let you know in the months to come what sex they really are. I am greatful for everyone's help!

[leej24]

Some new observations from yesterday:

1. The male spends a lot of time in one of the two caves I have placed in the 30 gallon tank.
2. The two smallest L204s (3" and 3.5") occasionally hang out with the male without him harassing them. Sometimes the 3.5" L204 (from above) will sit by the males cave while he's in there.
3. The 4" L204 (from above) spends most of the time by itself and usually keeps its distance from the dominant male. Probably a subdominant male.

More notes to come...

[leej24]

In the past two weeks or so the two smaller L204s hang out either on top of the males cave or right above it on the driftwood. They're never far away from the male except when I feed them. Otherwise, they'll go right back to where they were. Both of them don't look gravid enough to breed. They're in a 30gallon aquarium (30" long) so I don't know why they wouldn't go hide elsewhere, but right where the male is. Any thoughts?

[apistomaster]

When I still had 8 adults they did not seem to be very territorial as plecos go. They often shared hiding places under the wood piles I provided. It was quite some time before any ever used the caves provided and then a few possible females would often hang out near the opening of the occupied caves. I decided they were too much work to keep clean and were not as rare as Brazilian Hypancistrus so I sold them all off because I needed their tank for more productive and better selling species.
They are an interesting species and the juveniles are really beautiful but the adults are not quite as appealing. They made saw dust faster than I could siphon and change filters to keep up with their mess.

[krazyGeoff]

Hi,
Being ever the doubter of even my own opinions (not sure what that means.....) but I put an extra cave into my 4 Female + 1 Male tank just to make sure that there is no sub dominant male hiding amongst the ladies.....
However I have noticed that in the last 3-4 weeks all 4 females are crowding around the cave mouth, and the male sometimes even looks a bit bewildered. Except for feeding they are always there just as you are observing.

Now I can't wait for the new tanks to arrive so that I can set up 2 breeding tanks with 2 Females and 2 Males in each tank.

All I can think is that the girls know what to do but are not quite ready?

I am tempted to pipe some Barry White music in there to see what happens, but since I actually want nothing to happen until they are in the new tanks I will leave them alone.

Seriously though the only real change that I can think of is that there is now more light entering the tank, so perhaps they are crowding the male for protection????

I will continue to note their behaviour especially when they go into the new tanks.

Geoff

[apistomaster]

Hi Geof,
FWIW, I seem to have better results when the females out number of males.
1M and 2 F, 2M and 3 F or 3m and 4 F, for example.
A pair seems to be the least productive combination for me.

[krazyGeoff]

Thanks Larry,
I might try one tank with 2M and 2F and one with 1M and 2F just so I am covering both bases.

Geoff

[leej24]

HI KrazyGeoff,

That's what I've observed as well. The two smaller ones that we said were males always stay by the mouth of the cave (one stays on top of the cave and the other one stays right above the other one on the driftwood or on the side of the cave on the other piece of driftwood). There are three caves in there placed in different areas to see whether there is more than one male or not, but there has been no interest by the two smaller ones to occupy the cave. The only time they move away is to eat when they're being fed. However, they seem like they haven't gained any weight since the last time I took pictures of them, but I can't be for sure since I'm looking at them from the side and not the top. Maybe in the next month or two, I'll take them out and take some new pictures of them. Who knows, I might just get rid of them to free up some space. But I'll wait on that.