L- List Availability in Australia

[bigbird]

Ok Jools,

Thanks for that. This all started when people started asking what is available or has been available in Australia. So I started a thread and asked members to kindly advise me of what Ls are in this country. So that is how I started this vision of trying to get a list together for our future stake in the preservation of the Ls. There is no black market, most Ls are sold and advertised on various forums openly. There is only the concern of telling too much as these Ls in Australia cost a fortune. look at L046 selling on the market in threads for AUD 1100 for 5cm . So if you have 20 of these plus others as a breeding, you do not advertise too much. Also look at the 282s, I bought 4 for AUD 2500, some might disoute these being 97s and being questioned even in Germany as no 282 are in the market at the moment. SO my intention was to list Ls of what is know be be here. Not for selling etc as I publicise this list and updates regularly, it was more to show our interested L hobbyist what is availbale if they want it. This then is where I am at. In all honestly, reading through not one positive reply, I wish you would just delete this post, as I find it of none benefit to anybody. Not one reply from an Australian member, except criticism oh no L377 available and L091 etc. But when I put the ball on their court no response. Anyway just to clear the air, if you wish to delete this thread then do so. I have no problem with this and will then go to other sites where all has been positive. cheers and have a great day jk

[Jools]

JK,

It looks like a black market to me - how else would you define it? Look at the language - some illegally imported animals, some illegally exported animals, CITES registered species, dealers, anonymity and sky-high prices. How much of this revenue attracts GST? So, it appears to fall within a generally accepted definition to me.

This is an international forum, so you're going to get replies from folks outside of Australia. Many have an interest, I'm a paid up member of ANGFA for example.

Excepting SPAM, the mod team don't delete other peoples posts - you never know when the same thing will come up again and its important to be consistent.

So, happy to just leave the thread here, I can lock it if you wish. But let me be very clear, I am also very willing to support any conservation initiative of populations of these fishes "on the ground" in Australia. Maybe that's best done through the sites features however - the "My Cats" function for example.

Jools

PS Just out of interest, what other sites?

[MatsP]

So, happy to just leave the thread here, I can lock it if you wish. But let me be very clear, I am also very willing to support any conservation initiative of populations of these fishes "on the ground" in Australia. Maybe that's best done through the sites features however - the "My Cats" function for example.

We need a "find fish kept in <country>" then, don't we?

--
Mats

[Jools]

We need a "find fish kept in <country>" then, don't we?

Well, it's a bit off-topic, but it'll be done by organisation, which are often country or region specific. More elsewhere soon.

Jools

[ceh]

omfg .....I think the guy just wants to know what is available in Australia
does not need everything to be so complicated and illegal
are many fish are sold in Europe that are prohibited for export but is regularly cultivated in our aquariums
means anyone who owns L46 is associated with an illegal trade

[Jools]

omfg .....I think the guy just wants to know what is available in Australia
does not need everything to be so complicated and illegal
are many fish are sold in Europe that are prohibited for export but is regularly cultivated in our aquariums
means anyone who owns L46 is associated with an illegal trade

No need to use an acronym with a swear word in it please. There are kids that use this forum.

Meantime, I don't see your point. Ethics aside, none of these fish are illegal to import under European or EU member state law. They are illegal to import into Australia under Australian law. Are you suggesting we ignore a countries law just because it is not the same as our own?

Jools

[Shaun]

Well...feeling somewhat guilty my joke got out of hand.
Bigbird, I was using L091 Leporancanthicus triactus as an example of a fish on the list I'd like to keep, but I've only seen them for sale 2 or 3 times in Australia (in 20 years), so they're a good example for lack of availability. I thought the tongue thing might make it obvious: but it turns out you are selling something
I'll state my position: I'm with Jools. I'm more interested in "all catfish" than L-Numbers and being a person involved with conservation at a local and national level, I STRONGLY disapprove of the illegal smuggling of any fish, bird, reptile, plant etc into Australia. Through work I have a lot of contact with AQIS, Customs, Fisheries, DPI and DAFF and I agree wholeheartedly with what they're doing. I'm also a member of ANGFA

There is no black market, most Ls are sold and advertised on various forums openly.

There most certainly is a Black Market. These fish can be traded openly due to a loophole in our laws. Only fish on the Permitted Import List: http://www.environment.gov.au/biodivers ... t-list.pdf can be legally imported into Australia. Fish on the Noxious Fish List are illegal to keep(This list varies from state to state). These 2 lists do not cover all the fish species in the world, so the stuff in the middle is generally referred to as "gray area", this includes fish that have been here since before the import restrictions started in (I think) 1983, such as Bristlenose and Red Devils. L-Numbers sit firmly in this gray area, they're illegal to import, but not illegal to keep or sell. Unless you're caught smuggling them in, you can't be prosecuted for possessing them. This system is not great, but it's the one we have at the moment. There's a grassroots movement to change the Permitted Import List going on, but I doubt very much that L-Numbers will be added as a blanket term, as Jools pointed out, many are illegal to export from their native countries.
For the record, I keep 2 L-Number species, one was legally imported and the other was locally bred.
Shaun

[bigbird]

Hello Jools,

Thanks for your replies. Cheers jk

[Jools]

Thanks for your replies.

You're more than welcome, I hope they were of some use. Meantime, would you do me the courtesy of replying to my question?

Cheers,

Jools

[Firestorming]

By the way mate, mine was not criticism, just pointing out what I had discovered in my endeavours, have a look at my thread re 278 vs 377, pretty sure I added an LDA to your list.

[Firestorming]

Also you can add L243, though I am still not 100% it is what mine were purchased as.

[bigbird]

Hello Shaun,

Thanks for your reply
1. Thanks for your
2. I do not know where both of you bring in this smuggling, illegal import issues. I do not support this at all.
3. These Ls are already in Australia.
4. If my list would have stated Ls - that have been or are in circulation in Australia - maybe I would have received a better response
5. I still cant believe the fuss of me trying to amend my list of Ls, such a simple request.
cheers jk

[bigbird]

thks firestorming for your positive responses. cheers jk

[Firestorming]

No worries mate, also many of the L's have been imported quasi-legally. They came in as our one allowable import and surprise surprise it was a different species! Who ever would have thougth that there could be more than one L cat that was similar in looks (VTIC). Speaking to a friend who worked on getting L168 onto the list he has informed me that there has been talk of removing it due to the issues with species that look somewhat like it coming through.

Good luck with the list too.

[racoll]

many of the L's have been imported quasi-legally

What's "quasi" about it? They are not permitted, period. Just because the name on the invoice says something else is immaterial.

This brings me back to my earlier questions of how these things are getting in? I see several scenarios, but am curious to which is most likely. Anyone have any experience of this?

a) customs aren't checking shipments often or thoroughly enough, so fishes are simply ordered from overseas wholesalers under the correct name.
b) after pre-arrangement with exporters, the fishes are ordered under fake permitted names, and customs lack the skills to identify.
c) most imports of these fishes are serendipitous mislabelled species or contaminants.
d) they are literally smuggled in via people's luggage etc.

Speaking to a friend who worked on getting L168 onto the list he has informed me that there has been talk of removing it due to the issues with species that look somewhat like it coming through.

Getting undescribed species permitted is always going to be contentious. There are no objective means of identifying them, which is unlikely to go down favourably in any kind of risk analysis.

[Firestorming]

They must be under scrutineered at customs as they come in through the larger importers, and they simply ask for what was originally called here a "clown pleco" it was from this that a mix of 168/052/104 all came in under that moniker, it is very easy to sit outside this country and pass judgement.

I will leave this topic to its original idea of listing what has been or may still be in this country.

[racoll]

it is very easy to sit outside this country and pass judgement.

I was not "passing judgement". It was simply a question, as I am curious.

If you didn't realise, there are even stricter laws in NZ, and we see an even smaller variety of species. There is sometimes the odd L number for a few hundred dollars, and I wonder how they get in. I ask the retailers, but I don't get logical answers.

they simply ask for what was originally called here a "clown pleco" it was from this that a mix of 168/052/104 all came in under that moniker

I believe you, but it doesn't make sense. Dekeyseria spp. are 5-10x more expensive than Panaque maccus. Why would they sell expensive fish at cheap fish prices, or are they selling Dekeyseria as P. maccus at Dekeyseria prices?

[bigbird]

Dear Jools, Shaun and Racoll,

I am sure in every country there is or has been some for of illegal imports etc, look also at NZ they have a stricter quarantine guidline as we do in Australia. How do they get in, I do not know and I do not support at all.

But to call it a black market is also not correct, otherwise this forum would be supporting the black market by having Ls on the for sale Australia forum and also ID forum. Shaun stated even...quote There most certainly is a Black Market. These fish can be traded openly due to a loophole in our laws......so since there is this loop hole, they can be sold.

1. I again wish to point out that all I was after was corrections or amendments to a list of Ls that have are or are known to be in Australia. Just out of curiousity, nothing else
2. As Shaun stated, he is interested in all catfish etc, but I am just interested in Ls, so whats wrong with that ?
3. It is my view that the reason rarer Ls in Australia are not sold via forums is because they are too pricy to afford to most. The last on the forum thread of higher value which was more of an auction was 4 adult L147s.
4. I support all conservation efforts and the protection of animals and their habitate.

cheers jk

[racoll]

I believe you, but it doesn't make sense. Dekeyseria spp. are 5-10x more expensive than Panaque maccus. Why would they sell expensive fish at cheap fish prices, or are they selling Dekeyseria as P. maccus at Dekeyseria prices?

Okay, so P. maccus are banned, but the name Dekeyseria pulchra is permitted. So, the exporters are substituting similar Dekeyseria spp. under that common name "clown peckoltia" as listed on the au.govt live import list.

Then, they are "diluting" the shipments with a much cheaper Panaque species (coincidentally and more generally known a "clown pleco"), and then presumably charging Dekeyseria prices. Customs have no idea what any of these things actually really are, and are just happy that it says "clown pleco" on the box.

Now, it's all starting to make some sense ;)

[racoll]

look also at NZ they have a stricter quarantine guidline as we do in Australia.

there are even stricter laws in NZ, and we see an even smaller variety of species

Actually, looking at the lists closer, it isn't all that different and NZ has many, many more loricariids.

Interestingly, of only the five loricariids permitted to be imported into Australia, not one is actually available in the aquarium fish trade.

Dasyloricaria filamentosa
Dekeyseria pulchra
Farlowella acus
Otocinclus flexilis
Sturisoma panamense

[Shaun]

2. I do not know where both of you bring in this smuggling, illegal import issues. I do not support this at all.
3. These Ls are already in Australia.

Because they were smuggled in.

L's have been imported quasi-legally.

Accidently would probably be a better word...the responsibility lies with AQIS for not identifying the species properly.

Speaking to a friend who worked on getting L168 onto the list he has informed me that there has been talk of removing it due to the issues with species that look somewhat like it coming through.

Very old news. The list has been amended twice since that rumour went around and Dekeyseria pulchra, as it's called on the list, has not been removed. AQIS has circulated info regarding the proper identification of the species to all it's field offices.

b) after pre-arrangement with exporters, the fishes are ordered under fake permitted names, and customs lack the skills to identify.
d) they are literally smuggled in via people's luggage etc.

Racoll, b and d are correct. But you didn't mention commercial frieght, airlines, shipping etc. This is where most animals, drugs and weapons come into Australia, I think less than 30% is screened/searched on any given day. Try getting onto a passenger flight without being x-rayed and searched

I believe you, but it doesn't make sense. Dekeyseria spp. are 5-10x more expensive than Panaque maccus. Why would they sell expensive fish at cheap fish prices, or are they selling Dekeyseria as P. maccus at Dekeyseria prices?

Back when Panaque maccus were accidently getting in, they were retailing around $45aus, while Dekeyseria were more like $75.

2. As Shaun stated, he is interested in all catfish etc, but I am just interested in Ls, so whats wrong with that ?

Nothing wrong with that mate
Shaun

[Shane]

Then, they are "diluting" the shipments with a much cheaper Panaque species (coincidentally and more generally known a "clown pleco"), and then presumably charging Dekeyseria prices. Customs have no idea what any of these things actually really are, and are just happy that it says "clown pleco" on the box.

I do not think that the several spp commonly called "clown plecos" are quite so hard. For many years any small loricariid with a banded pattern were sold as Clown pleco. What sp you actually got depended on who you ordered from and what banded small pleco they had on hand. There was no price difference between these fishes, for the most part, until exporters started using L Numbers. Even today Dekeyseria may, at most, sell for a few cents more than P. maccus. When I was in Colombia (2002-04) they were actually cheaper as they were just bycatch of the Discus trade. If retailers are charging a higher price this might reflect greater shipping losses among Dekeyseria than Panaque.

I just pulled up a list I received 17 April from Bogota. Dekeyseria US $1.80, Panaque $1.50. Although there is a second population of Panaque being offered for $ .70 each. At that low of a price it is certain that those "Panaque" are either not sorted, or are a combined tank of leftovers from previous shipments, and and an importer might receive 3-4 spp. In either case, unless the customs inspector was a mod on planetcatfish s/he would have no realistic way to know that.

-Shane

[racoll]

Valuable information Shane and Shaun. Just what I was after. Thanks!

I guess I based my experience on UK prices: £3-7 for P. maccus and £15-40 for Dekeyseria.

[Brengun]

Add LDA78 to the list Bigbird. My L205 juvies (I bought from a breeder)as they matured have been identified as LDA78's.

No they are illegal imports, they were here before laws made it illegal and they can be bred which is why they are still here.

On a side note I have had some species which cannot be bred, at least not easily. Were they illegal imports? No, they were old as Methusalah though.

[littlebristlenose]

I have kept a list since as a lad when our shop imported catfish with other fish from 1988.
On some of the fish on the list atleast some can't or haven't been breed so the few that are left will die out in natural time.( as for smaller one's available that is clearly gray )

Atleast half of the listed fish would have in some way have been bought in in a way which is classed as smuggled ( as in how or why there's lots of ways as the program the other night on tv shows only 10 % of containers are screened in Sydney it is higher in other ports that program said $10,000 per container for each person )Looking at that report,you can see fish, drugs, guns etc will enter for a fee.

Catfish list by country is good in small european country but hear won't work due to rip offs and other problems due to government and Cities bans.

I for one have off loaded most of my fish due to rip offs and the up coming new measures by our country.

The list you have should be cut in half with what is openly for sale/available list and a won't to save list( dieing out need to be saved list )

As for trade or gray imports that is something new laws will take care off if government is serious in Cities and other international actions they should licence fish without legal laws that way they can receive money for more fisheries feet on the ground.

Our countries borders can't stop boat loads of people coming in so do you really think anything else can be stopped...is different?

Recent trips to LFS I know that quite alot of recent fish are coming from Germany/Thailand/Malyasia, that means fish coming in from the airport so someone there at the border can't tell the difference and should get a kick up the butt.

Early fish imports most people didn't even know of id's on the fish and the few that made it are what is still working stock in Australia but in recent years there has been a flood in extra catfish on gray and non import list.

I don't know if local breed fish make you a crook but i don't believe so,the real crooks are off shore exporting to us!

The customs people need retraining on fish imports,that is were most recent store fish have come from.( i spoke with one at store and he wasn't sure of any types looking in the tanks of a store and asked the store owner for id the stock???

I remember the old days the same used to happen than also so not much has changed.( i not flaming the department as most people couldn't id 30,000 types of known fish available around the world maybe another 10,000 not recorded not even in one type of fish such as catfish )

[Viktor Jarikov]

I like BigBird's attempt to keep such a list, surely. And I wholeheartedly sympathize with not being able to keep so many fishes you'd like to keep. It must be devastating.

But if I may: on the topic of "negativity" of PlanetCatfish and "positivity" of other forums that BigBird keeps bringing up.

This is relative to what one considers an educated+thoughtful+careful/caring approach and what is not. The good old tale of good vs bad and seeming good vs seeming bad.

When one makes a proposal to a poorly educated and/or careless crowd and they cheerfully join in, then that one may say "yeah, nice positive response". When one makes the same proposal to an educated, mature, professional, thoughtful, and caring crowd that thinks it through and says hey, be careful of this and that, etc. and does not join in the proposal, one may say "this crowd is negative".

So, let's say that genuine, cheerful, and "constructive" support that lands the poster AS WELL AS the forum in trouble/penalty/jail/whatever is not all that positive, is it? May leave you wishing you've been met with that other education-based and experience-based absence of support.

[Viktor Jarikov]

I do realize not everything in this issue is as black and white and not as extreme as I painted it, but one may think of it as the other one-sided picture on the end opposite to the OP's.