F1 L134 bred.

[apistomaster]

I added 4 of my 2 year old F1 females to my breeding group of wild L134's. I had lost one of my original females by accident. She was hiding in a piece of woof I removed but I did not notice until a week later her dried carcass fell out of the wood.
That left me with only 2 pairs of the original wild breeding group.
Apparently many of the F1 females have bred since I have quite a few new batches of fry averaging about 15 instead of the 25 or so my older wild females usually produce.

My next step is to set up a group of only 2 year F1 L134's as a new breeding group. I don't know if the males need to be a little older but in any case they are all getting older so even if it takes another year for the males to participate in spawning I will begin to produce many F2 L134 eventually. I had retained about 3 dozen from my first spawns to become my future breeders. I think I will use a 40 gal breeder tank and set it up with 4 males and 12 females.
In any case, I am pleased to see that L134 can be bred at only 2 years old, at least 2 year old females with males which are at least 5 to 6 years old. Breeding Hypancistrus species is more frustrating for several reasons.1) Because of their slower growth rates and probable minimum 3 years old before there is much chance of spawning them. 2) The numbers of fry produced per spawn of smaller species like H. zebra and L260 tends to be small; 10 to 15 fry per brood. No other species of pleco I have bred have as fast initial growth rates as Peckoltia sp L134. It only takes 2 years for l134 to reach or exceed 2-3/4 inches and only 5 months to reach 1-1/2 inches. It has taken 1-1/2 years for my L260 fry to reach 1-1/2 inches or a tad more. Here are some photos.



These are some of the reasons why I consider Peckoltia sp L134 my favorite and why I recommend them as one of the best species to acquire when hobbyists have outgrown their interest in common Bushy Nose and want to try a more colorful dwarf pleco species.
Just a reminder, but there are only 10 days left to take advantage of my spring special sale of buy 6 L134 or L333 and receive a 7th fish free. Check the hobbyists' "For Sale-USA" section for my sale's terms and conditions. The sale ends after April 15th.
The F1 L134 are about 10 to 11 months old fish.

[nvcichlids]

Congrats Larry... that is quite an accomplishment!

[davidkozak]

Good info regarding growth rates and ages of breeding adults, Larry. Something we'd only guess about otherwise. A local guy here is breeding motoro stingrays, and some pups that he bred have finally got old enough to have pups of their own. David

[Suckermouth]

How does L333 growth compare to L134 growth?

[apistomaster]

hi milton.
The growth rate of L333 compares favorably well to that of Peckoltia L134. They have been a rapid growing species compared to other Hypancistrus spp which belong to the smaller sized species like l260 and H. zebra so I was not being very accurate by lumping the Hypancistrus spp together. L333 and L66 are among the larger members of the group, tend to be more prolific and their young grow twice as fast as L260 for the sake of comparison. I have L333 which are 8 to 10 months old ranging from 1-1/2 to just over 1-3/4 inches TL and show now signs of slowed growth yet. I do think they will take about 3 years to reach sexual maturity which is longer than that of Peckoltia sp L134. Until I actually have bred F1 l333 I can't speak from personal experience. All my breeders are wild fish and of unknown ages. I have had them just over 2 years and they have not grown during that time. I did not get around to setting the L333 in a breeding tank until a little more than a year after I received them but they spawned within six weeks once in their breeding tank. we do know that L333 and L66 are two of the easiest Hypancistrus to breed and among the most prolific. A typical brood of L333 runs between 40 and 60 fry from my fish. But remember, I have some very mature breeders. I have read of even larger spawns coming from the larger species, L66.

I still have questions about how old and for how long L134 can live and breed. I know that some owners of breeding wild H. zebra who have had spawns from fish which must be at least 13 years old.
There is often a relationship between the time fish mature and their ultimate life span but as I am sure you are aware, there is very little recorded information about the actual life cycles of most pleco species.
My own wild L134 breeders have to be at least 6 years old. They arrived at 2-3/4 to 3 inches so I would guess those were between 2 and 3 years old. They did not begin spawning for me until after I had had them for a little more than 2 years. That was almost 3 years ago. We still have much to learn about the biology of many of the most popular pleco species, at least as it proceeds in captivity. We probably know much less about their biology in the wild.
My average size L134 spawn is 25 to 30 fry but my largest brood numbered about 40 fry but that is not typical of my group. I am changing water and while working on a one of the 40 gal breeders which has a possible pair of wild lenquer Discus and many of my oldest F1 L134 I caught a glimpse of what appeared to be a L134 fry about 2 weeks old. It was only a glimpse so what I saw may have been one of the Corydoras habrosus that are in the same tank but it didn't , look right. Before I refill their tank I will see if I can discover whether or not their really is at least one juvenile L134. I do not have any caves which they could have used for a spawning site but when fish choose to breed they often improvise. I hope I do find a even a single F2 L134 fry. That would be sufficient evidence that they are ready to be set up in a proper spawning tank furnished with wood and caves. Learning the answers to these questions are part of what makes keeping and breeding fish such a fascinating hobby.
If I do find an F2 L134 in this tank I will begin to set up two separate breeding tanks since I have about 3 dozen F1 L134 about 2 years old. If I can begin breeding two large colonies it will allow me to sell in large wholesale quantities to a couple of preferred on-line breeders. Up tp now, I only produce enough for more limited retail sales.
I like and enjoy raising plecos because they are not demanding species but my main project is to breed Red Alenquer and Royal Blue S. haraldi and also Green Discus, S. aequifasiata. I have previous experience breeding wild S. haraldi but this will be my first serious attempts to breed wild green Discus. Green Discus are more demanding of specific water chemistry than the Brown/Blue S. haraldi so success is likely to only come with increased diligence. There is a movement within the Discus hobby to go back to the wild fish. Only a small percentage of all Discus aficionados are drwn to the wild types but anyone who can supply F1 Dcus from wild parents will not have any trouble selling them. It is not the path of least resistance, to be sure, but any competent fish keeper can breed and raise domestic Discus so the between the commercial sources and hobbyists it is a crowded field. Not so when it comes to wild or F1 wild specimens.
My involvement with Discus goese back over 4 decades and I began breeding wild Discus long before the advent of the plethora of domestic strains existed. I bred 1000's of domestics and plenty of my old customers continue to ask me if I have some for sale but I sold all my domestic Discus to concentrate on wild fish again. My involvement with the small fancy plecos only began in early 2006. They have proved to catch my interest so I will continue my pleco breeding as i work on my wild Discus breeding program. I have 16 F1 Blue Discus coming in this week and I am in the process of cleaning my tanks before they arrrive and am still trying to induce a spawn from one of my wild red Alenquer Discus pairs. I have a friend in town with whom I have collaborated many years on various fish breeding projects. He is short on tank space but is trying to get his Stendker brilliant Turquoise Discus to raise some spawns. The first pair spawned within 10 after their arrival but we received some badly stunted fish. They raised that first spawn but have eaten every brood since. Some of the progeny are now old enough to breed so if he can resume raising them I will take them after they have become independent from their parents so then I will raise them to a salable size. If this works I will be able to offer a domestic strain in addition to F1 wild juveniles. The best of both worlds. It had been so long since he last bred domestic discus that he forgot how much food, especially live Artemia nauplii young discus require so he stunted his first and only successful spawn. But still, enough fish were salvaged that we should be able to establish a domestic Brilliant Turquoise breeding program. Discus photos;

[Suckermouth]

Thanks Larry for the information. About the L333, exactly what I wanted to hear.

[Linus_Cello]

I would love to have a tank one day with discus and L134. They sound like they go well together: similar water parameters, similar diet, etc. I've never kept discus, so your brilliant turquoise sound like a great beginner discus. What would you recommend for tank size for such a community: at least 75 gallon, ideally 90 gallon? Do you use RO water, or with the F2 L134 and turquoise discuss is tap ok (unless you're trying to breed them)? I saw an amazon sword; what other plants would work in the tank (and do you use CO2)? And also what other fish would work? Small tetras like cardinals or glowlights? Maybe a solitary ghost knife? Any other advice on setting up a show tank for discus and L134?

[apistomaster]

Hi Linus,

I would recommend buying 8 domestic Discus of just one color variety and set them up in a 75 gal tank. That gives you close to the nominal 10 gal per Discus which will allow them to reach their maximum size. You may discount the other tank mates, with in reason for this basic calculation. It is best to breed your Discus as purebreds of their type and avoid the temptation of getting a few of several different color varieties because if you breed them when it come to trying to sell them most people do not want mongrels. You can't go wrong if you choose Red Turquoise or Brilliant turquoise like the fish I showed above. The different color strains come and go as fads but the demand for good quality red or Brilliant Turquoise never diminishes. Almost all tap water is suitable for growing out young Discus to breeding sized fish. Sometimes it is necessary to mix the tap water with RO water to get improved hatches but you have to raise the Discus before you need to concern yourself with breeding details.
I use L134 or one of the small Hypancistrus as my primary bottom feeders. I prefer L134 because of their brighter colors and somewhat bolder personalities. One L134 is equivalent to 3 or 4 typical Corydoras so 6 oto 8 make an excellent clean up crew. I also always include one adult common bushy Nose. I prefer the short fin Albino form because they show up well and they are the best of all possible all purpose algae eaters. This is the rare case where I actually prefer the albinos to the normal colored forms but having at least one or two Bushy Noses is a big help with algae control.

Take the low tech approach to the Discus tank. High tech is unnecessary and only makes keeping Discus more trouble than they should be. I always place my major rooted rosette plants in clear plastic food containers or cut off the bottoms of clear plastic 2 liter fruit juice containers as my pots. No holes in the pots. I use a fine quartzite sand for the overall substrate but in the pots I use FloraBase a special plant substrate. I only use time release fertilizers. I use NutrifinFin PlantGro Spikes in each pot. These will ensure luxuriant growth of even heavy feeders like Amazon sword plants and you won't be flushing expensive liquid fertilizers with every water change down the drain.
You are going to be making at least 1 water change of about 2/3 the tank's volume every 3rd or 4th day. There is no negotiating this point if you expect to see good growth among your Discus. If you buy 3 inch Discus they should begin spawning for you within 9 to 11 months after you receive them. Another good reason for placing major show plants in pots is that it best to begin growing out young Discus in bare bottom tanks or nearly so. I don't like a bare bottom so I begin with a thin layer of quartz sand just enough to barely conceal the bare bottom. Discus spend much of their time picking through the sand or puffing little pits hoping to discover bits of food.
Once your Discus are almost 5 inches you may add more sand to their tank. I like to include some branching wood in my Discus tanks. The Discus like that, too.
Add some caves for your plecos, too. A Discus tank is a perfect environment for raising young L134's to breeding age/size.

Feeding Discus.
One of the reasons why you want a nearly bare bottom tank during the main grow out period of your Discus is because one of the best foods for getting good growth rates is a beef heart blend, This food can be messy but you will soon learn how much to use to minimize waste and mess. Frozen blood worms should be there next most frequently fed food. I also feed mine earth worm sticks and some lessor amounts of Spirulina sticks. These sticks and frozen blood worms will also make up the bulk of the diet of your group of plecos.

I use a pair of dual NO T-5 Aqualight strip reflectors for my 75 gallon tank. These are a high efficiency light which despite their lower wattage they produce as much light intensity as T-12 lamps of equal length. The T-5 lamps are 28 watts each yet are equivalent to 40 watt, 48 inch T-12 lamps. That is quite an energy savings for achieving the same good plant growth.
I also use Tropical Hornwort, Ceratophyllum demersum to provide the Discus some over head cover. Another good potted plant I recommend is Nymphea spp dwarf aquarium lilies. Tiger, Red or whatever variety you prefer. They produce nice broad submerged leaves and floating leaves although most floating leaves should be trimmed so the submerged leaves grow larger.

Other Fish.
I wouldn't recommend a ghost knife. Stick with a couple schools of tetras. I like choosing one group of slender species like Rummy Noses and one group of rhomboid shaped tetras like Black Phantoms. Avoid Serpae Tetras; they are merely pygmy piranha in a pretty disguise. Some Silver Hatchetfish can add some flash and activity at the surface. A nice species for something different and very beautiful are some Dicrossus filamentosus dwarf cichlids, the Lyre Tail Checker Boards. They are a bargain for such a lovely species because they are usually part of the by catch of other species caught while netting for Cardinal Tetras.

I guess this will have to do for my Discus beginner's advice for now. I'm expecting 16 Blue Discus today and I need to do some water changes before they and some of the other fish in the same shipment arrive. I will be glad to answer other questions as they arise.
I did forget to mention the filters. I recommend using a large canister filter and at least one other filter. I personally have one Eheim Classic 2217 on each of my 75 and 125 gal Discus tanks but those are just my supplentary filters. my main filters are DIY wet/dry filters each using a 950 gph MagDrive water pump # 9.5.