L200 Death, Any ideas to cause?

[redfan]

Hi all,

I just been into the fish room to do my daily maintenance only to find my L200 Green phantom pleco laying on its side very much dead

He has these last few days been up at the top of the tank and I have also noted similar behaviour from a couple of the corydoras (sterbai) too.

I have checked the tank water and it reads ammonia 0, Nitrite 0 and nitrate approx 10ppm. I do have a O2 test kit which I'm considering running also.

The tank houses 1 Honey Gourami, 6 Corydora Sterbai, 6 Khuli Loaches and a L202 plec. It is a 30G tank.

Have enclosed 2 pictures, the L200 seems to have a very blue and swollen area on the right side of it's chest and this was partially visible from the top also.

My main concern is whether this is a lack of oxygen or whether it indicates a disease, if a disease could it affect other inhabitants of the tank?

Many thanks

[MatsP]

The swollen belly indicates what I call "Internal bacterial infection". Some use the term Septicemia. Either way, it's not unusual in the more vegetarian types of Plecos (even in the more carnivorous ones this does happen quite regularly). Food may well be a factor - too much protein is thought to be a contributor to this problem (or rather, lack of fibre).

--
Mats

[redfan]

Thanks for the reply Mats

Should I be concerned about any of the other fish in that tank being affected?

I usually feed the plecs either courgette, cucumber or pleco wafers .. always seems to have worked ok for me.

Obviously my main worry is anything being passed onto other fish.

Thanks again.

[MatsP]

In my experience, this affects individual fish, and isn't contagious.

--
Mats

[redfan]

Thanks again Mats

It has been a bit of a shock for me to lose such a lovely little plec. Guess these things happen sometimes.

I did do a O2 test and it showed approx 2mgl which is way under the 80% limit the test kit recommends (for water at 25C it should be around 6.8mgl). Has anyone ever used these before (it's a Tetra Test O2 kit) and what of the accuracy?

Added an air stone to the tank now (the fluval 205 outlet is pretty weak) and will check it again tonight as obviously less oxygen present of an evening.

Cheers

[Unungy]

Mat is right.

It does happen every now and then. Often when left overs are not vacuuming from the bottom of the tank and plecos eat that. It will cause them an internal bacterial infection and its hard to tell as they don't show any symptoms whatsoever until you find them dead.

I have noticed that preventing its always easier by just keeping the bottom of your tank clean all the time.

Treatment:
1. I've have used Tetracycline wish excellent results or metro

[MatsP]

From the best of my understanding, dissolved oxygen tests are about as useful as a chocolate tea-pot. But they usually show higher, rather than lower. What is your setup like? That low oxygen levels would be pretty hard to achieve unless you have NO circulation in the tank.

--
Mats

[redfan]

Unungy - I would be very surprised if that is what has happened (eating left over food) .. I vaccum the gravel daily when I change about 5 - 10% of the water. Have always done this as in your suggestion, easier to prevent uneaten food rotting etc.

Mats - The tank is a standard Fluval 125ltr (approx 30G) which instead of the Fluval U3 filter I swapped it out for an external Fluval 205 which seems to work ok.

The outlet is pretty weak though and only creates agitation on about 1/3 of the surface. As I mention I have now added an air stone on the opposite side of tank (near to the inlet but at front and side of tank) .. the surface seems to be agitated fully now.

I will check the O2 just out of interest this evening. As you say though I have serious doubts regarding there accuracy.

Look forward to continued input, want to make sure all is well in the tank really ... If you want I could do a short video of that tank if you think it will help?

Cheers

[MatsP]

I suspect, if you changed filters, that you've had a spike of nitrite and/or ammonia. This can happen when you change filters, no matter what the precautions are. This would explain "hanging at the surface"...

--
Mats

[redfan]

Thanks for the suggestion I changed the filter probably about a month ago and used some of the cycled bio rings from the U3. Still think your initial response as to its death as correct.

What I will say is, since the addition of the air stone none of the cory's are coming to the surface as they were yesterday.

Will post this evenings O2 results in a while.

[dw1305]

Hi all,
This is almost certainly oxygen deficiency, whilst it may sound counter-intuitive the visible air bubbles you see won't have much effect on the level of aeration of the water.

If you have bottom dwelling fish near the top of the tank, you should always suspect that it is an O2 issue.

Oxygen deficiency very frequently relates to biological filtration, the conversion of NH3 - NO2 - NO3 is an oxygen intensive process.

Have a look here: <http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =4&t=33918> & <http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =5&t=33883>

cheers Darrel

[Shane]

Just to note that I agree with Darrel, I am not sure the swelling you are seeing in the belly is the result of a bacterial infection. It looks to me more like trapped air left over in the gut by a fish that was trying to take atmospheric O2. That is why you have seen him so often at the top of the tank lately. He has been swallowing O2 to breath easier.

I am not sure what is causing your low O2 levels, but you should immediately conduct a large water change and add extra surface agitation (as you have).

As a note for the future, the minute you see fishes hanging at the surface or taking atmospheric O2 more often than normal immediately perform a large scale water change to buy some "breathing room" while you investigate the possible causes.

-Shane

[redfan]

Shane & Darrel My first thought was regarding an oxygen issue hence I have added the air stone. Equally I normally do 3G a day from that tank (30G) yesterday and today I have done approx 20% each day .. I will do a larger water change tomorrow also (likely 50%).

Today I moved the wood so I could clean under it .. I think the actual water is fine (from the tests I have done) but I do tend to agree in that it is as likely a oxygenation issue as it is a bacterial infection.

Thanks for your input. I will post again tomorrow with an update.

[racoll]

What is the temperature of the tank?

[apistomaster]

I agree with most of the posters but an fish isolated death is almost always more complex than a single cause.
Like engineering failures, it is usually a cluster of small factors that finally lead to a bad outcome.
I do not think the Fluval 205 is adequate for the tank.
I recommend a turn over of about ten tank volumes per hour. I do like canister filters but they nearly always need some additional aeration because the biological filter bacteria consume dissolved O2 as the water passes through the filter. I always run at least one air stone with any canister filter. All O2 and CO2 enters and leaves at the water's surface and any method which increases the rate at which the water in the tank is brought into contact with the air/water interface will increase the dissolved O2 and facilitate the elimination of excess CO2.

That said, I suspect the pleco had parasites like gill flukes which compromise the gills' ability to respire.
Very few wild fish are naturally free of parasites but they negotiate a mutually acceptable accommodation until the fish are caught, crowded and stressed. These things lower the natural resistance and effectiveness of the immune system. While many importers do treat their fish for the most common problem parasites they rarely can afford to perform a full cycle of treatment and keep up with their business' turnover rates so we can't assume our fish are OK.
This is really important when you are entering into the realm of expensive species such as many of the wild plecos and Discus. I know it is an inconvenience, but everyone buying expensive fish needs to have at least a spare ten or twenty gallon tank they can put into service as a quarantine and if necessary, a treatment tank. Furthermore, once a parasite begins to gain the upper hand the fish become very susceptible to pathogenic bacteria present in every fish tank. That secondary infection in Plecos is often Aeromonas and/or Pseudomonas which can cause bacterial hemorrhagic septicemia. Proper treatment of the primary parasite(s) can prevent secondary infections.
Once a fish dies it bloats rapidly so if it was both bloated and gasping for air, I rest my case.

[Neo]

In my 125L Juwel Rio L134 tank I run a Fluval 4 with airline to create bubbles while it pumps out if that makes sense, an external eheim 2073 and also the eheim 400 airpump just to make sure and get 6-8mg/l o2 test with the same test kit you used, temp 84F

But I also get 6-8mg/l in my l46 trigon 190L tank with the same kinda set up, not sure these kits are much good

[apistomaster]

I do not trust the colormetric O2 tests and am not willing to splurge several hundred dollars for a good O2 meter.
Enough circulation, aeration and good common sense has worked well for hobbyists for almost a century.

[Neo]

I do not trust the colormetric O2 tests and am not willing to splurge several hundred dollars for a good O2 meter.
Enough circulation, aeration and good common sense has worked well for hobbyists for almost a century.

well said!

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Larry says

I do like canister filters but they nearly always need some additional aeration because the biological filter bacteria consume dissolved O2 as the water passes through the filter.

This is why I initially wrote the "Aeration and Oxygenation....." article, I realised that many of the problems people were experiencing were due to the water in the filter becoming de-oxygenated, and the filter running at a fraction of its biological filtration potential.

We actually found as you removed filter media from canister filters performance often improved due to increased flow rates. This is also why I recommend the combination of an easily cleanable coarse PPI10 intake sponge and internal ceramic rings, they very rarely clog and inhibit flow.
This is also why I like Eheim classics, the water goes in at the bottom, and can't by pass the media, any clogging is indicated by reduced flow.

Ideally you want oxygen and ammonia in the filter, and to keep organic waste etc out.

If you have an air pump and diffuser (and I would) it needs to produce very, very fine bubbles. As others have suggested it is actually water movement in terms of rapid linear flow that turns the volume of the tank over fairly rapidly that is a more efficient way of achieving oxygenation, if you don't have the gold standard of a "wet and dry" trickle filter.

cheers Darrel

[redfan]

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions lots of food for thought

Darrel the air stone is producing pretty small /fine bubbles and lots of them

Neo & Apistomaster I agree that the colour O2 tests are pretty poor and unreliable however I see no harm in really using them alongside good aeration anyway

Also Apistomaster you talk about performing a full cycle of treatments for newly arrived wild and more expensive plecos .. what kind of treatments would one do as a matter of course? (If you can list the products that would be even better )

I have through all this learned about performing a worming treatment on new arrivals (something I was unsure of until this) however am curious what else should be treated for when putting a new wild fish into QT.

Racoll the tank is around 25 - 26C

Many thanks for all your assistance I am learning lots here and am very grateful

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Darrel the air stone is producing pretty small /fine bubbles and lots of them

They need to be as small as possible,due to the surface area / volume ratio and the limited solubility of O2.

If you can keep them in solution for longer (longer residence time) they have more chance to dissolve. I like to feed mine into the filter intake, this gives you a good measure of bubble size, if the filter continually becomes air locked the bubbles are too large.

This is also why a venturi is often good if it points down and along the tank, as long as the bubbles are fine and the flow isn't inhibited too strongly.

cheers Darrel

[MatsP]

In case of the airstone usage, me and Racoll co-operated in a bit of a "bag of a fag-packet" calculation, and came to the conclusion that the air-to-water contact time*surface of the top of the tank is some 1000x-1000000x larger than the bubbles from an airstone. It does have a large effect in the sense that the airpump introduces fresh air into the tank (which is often quite enclosed) and also the bubbles lift water to the surface, and the surface is where the gas exchange takes place.

--
Mats

[dw1305]

Hi all,

In case of the airstone usage, me and Racoll co-operated in a bit of a "bag of a fag-packet" calculation, and came to the conclusion that the air-to-water contact time*surface of the top of the tank is some 1000x-1000000x larger than the bubbles from an airstone.

That is certainly of the right order of magnitude, this is why bubbles are for aquarists, not fish.

Air is only 21% oxygen, and oxygen is much less soluble in water than CO2. This means that an air pump needs to produce very fine bubbles (in the range of 10 – 200 microns diameter) and that they have to have a long “residence time” in the water column, if significant exchange of oxygen to the water is to occur. Realistically for this you either need a ceramic plate diffuser (and very high air pressures) or an “EPDM“ (ethylene propylene diene terpolymer) membrane diffuser and a very long water column.

The advantage of even a relatively small trickle filter is that you can create an enormous gas exchange surface, many times large than the surface volume of the tank, this also allows CO2 to escape to the atmosphere more efficiently, reducing the Bohr effect.

As suggested increased water flow speed is a much more efficient way of increasing oxygenation than direct aeration with an air pump. This link (from Aeration ..... <http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829>) <http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/1/aafeature/> gives technical details and practical examples.

cheers Darrel

[MatsP]

Yes, it looks pretty, but it also improves the circulation flow up/down the tank, which may improve over the filtration - depending on the flow rate and position of the filter intakes. And, as I mentioned earlier, it introduces "new air" into the tank, which can never be a bad thing [unless there's something wrong with the air in itself, but that shouldn't be a common problem].

--
Mats

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I'm not knocking air pumps, I use an air stone in some of the tanks at night, it certainly can't do any harm, and as you say it does have some beneficial effects.

If you asked me what the 2 factors that have the biggest positive effect on aeration are (other than a trickle filter) I would say actively photosynthesising plants and reducing the BOD as far as possible.

cheers Darrel

[redfan]

Hi guys, cheers again though its all kind of going over my head now tbh lol

I need to read up on some of these articles etc .. for now, see the little video if its possible to give you guys a guide as to what my air stone is producing then that's great.

Thanks

[dw1305]

Hi all,
No that is fine, you have a lot of surface movement, the only thing you need to check is that the lower layers of the tank are being turned over as well. If it was my tank I would add a power head and sponge(Maxijet is my personal choice), towards the bottom of the tank, and feed the air through the power head venturi.

The air bubbles themselves aren't adding any air, they are much too big and are going straight to the surface, but they are adding quite a lot of turbulence, which will increase the gas exchange surface.

I have very fine bubbles being swept all around the tank, and these form air pockets under the plant leaves etc, increasing diffusion into the water.

cheers Darrel

[redfan]

Thanks for the comment darrel I'm assuming the bottom is turned over sufficiently now as its what I have in my 65G tank also .. a Fluval 305 and same air stone as in that tank (only it's stretched all the way out and not wrapped up) and I have never had any of the problems I have encountered in the 30G.

However, I don't suppose there is some article somewhere about adding a powerhead to a tank and running the air through it?

Asking as truthfully have no idea how you actual do that (just being honest) but is something I would be interested in doing for the benefit of my plecs and jaguar cats (which are my passion).

Many thanks

[apistomaster]

Bubbles are merely a means to an ends; that of inducing turnover of aquarium water to improve gas exchange which occurs at the air/water interface. I completely agree with the calculations. Bubbles may be aesthetic for some; myself included, at times.

I have used the venturi built in to my MaxiJet and most other power heads at times but mainly when I had a sponge filter added to my old Heckel Discus tank, a 75 gal, also equipped with an Eheim Classic 2217 and a 1000 gph wet/dry filter. Since the venturi effect only works well by itself if the power head is within several inches of the water surface you have to add compressed air if you want the power head at depth to emit bubbles.
I only did that for the looks. It wasn't at all necessary with the wet/dry filter system. The sump's added surface area combined with the massive air/water surface area of the trickle towers(I used two), the water was always going to be very close to the maximum D.O. level of 7.8 ppm/84*F near sea level(735 ft).
I raised 10 young Heckel Discus to large adults in a system containing about 90 gallons. I have a large sump holding about 15 gal plus the 75. The total surface area of the system is far greater than a 75 gal run by say just the Eheim 2217 alone.

I have raised a third group of Discus, 11 F1 Nhamunda Blue Discus in this same tank and they are still being kept in it while I await the pairs to form. Discus do not need nearly as high dissolved O2 levels as Plecos but when you are crowding them the way I do every little bit helps. I also happen to have 7 Hypancistrus contradens tank mates in this tank. They are my bottom feeders. I usually use Hypancistrus spp or Peckoltia compta as bottom feeders in my Discus tanks instead of Corydoras. They like the same warm(84*F water)at which I keep my Discus. It is a win/win for me since I like both wild type Discus and warm water plecos.

[apistomaster]

There are optimal sized bubbles when using aeration techniques. The optimum size bubbles depend on the volume of water one wishes to turnover and these have been well researched for every application in aquaculture from lakes to very small aquariums.
In aquariums the best sized bubbles tend to come from air stones designed to produce medium fine sized bubbles. Extremely fine and extremely large sized bubbles are inefficient sizes in aquarium applications.

Air stones also tend to clog over time for a variety of reasons from mineral deposit to organic deposits from bacterial colonies. One can extend and improve the performance of an air stone by cleaning by bleaching or perhaps an acid soak but eventually air stones do have to be replaced periodically. How often depends on the TDS in the water and the amount of bacterial colonization and even plain old dust induced into the air stream by poorly filtered air pump intakes.