Mustard spot pleco (Panaqolus albomaculatus) project

[pleconut]

I've seen close ups from the same angle of 2 of my L397 the papillae appears to come to a white point in only of my 2 immature fish that are I think are male having slight ondontode growth, behaviour wise- tends to stay in and defend one cave even challenging another for one, and I think female, wide in the middle but no odontode growth at all- behaviour wise moves caves. These L397s are both sub-adult fish. So maybe it changes/develops as they grow/mature or become ready to spawn. Although again I would like to emphasise 'I think' male and female but only from what evidence I've seen.

[Jobro]

I love the sexing games, but I'll have to pass on these, can't see any noticeable difference right now.

[bekateen]

Here is the last new video of these fish: It shows each fish from a lateral view and a ventral view, with the bodies held out of water in air. Although I'm still unconvinced that ANY of these fish are definitely females, this out-of-air video reinforces my impression that the largest fish is a female, and the middle-sized fish is a male (and the smallest is still ambiguous).

Cheers, Eric

Sexing mustard spot plecos (Panaqolus albomaculatus) side views and ventral views out of water

[Jobro]

I like your Vids, Eric!

Difference in genitalpapillae doesn't seem to be as prominent as in your Clowns, yet. I think it's still gonna take some time to be sure about the genders. I pray for you having a female among those, so you can get some breeding going on someday.

[pleconut]

The older and larger female L397s i have and larger than the size of the mustard spots are starting to reveal a bump to the appearance of the papillae to me the now the largest fish is female, but it maybe the second and third both need time to get to the size of the largest fish to know with more certainty . But also look out for odontode growth, in L397 i found males usually develop this quite early. If there is no ondontode growth and they all turn out to be female you might want to attempt sourcing a sexed male if you want to breed them.

[bekateen]

Agreed. It's very difficult to tell with certainty. That's why I'm taking the photos and videos of these albomaculatus now, when gender is not definitive, and likewise for my mature but out-of-condition guahiborum. These threads are collecting "early" observations, as discussed in an older thread (Re: Sexing Panaqolus maccus? Spawning at last!) to see if we can accurately predict gender of fish before their sexually-dimorphic traits are clear. Why? Because typically we never find well-conditioned fish for sale in stores; we find juvies and out-of-condition adults.

If I'm correct (and fortunate, LOL), I have one male, one female, and one unknown albomaculatus... But only time will tell.

Now that the mustard spots are in with the oil cats, I'm going to raise the temperature in that tank to 80F, to see if that will help with conditioning. Right now the heater is set a little low (about 76-78F), not on purpose but because that setting was sufficient previously when the outside weather was warmer. But now as Winter sets in, the heater is not keeping the tank warm enough for my liking.

Cheers, Eric

[pleconut]

Hi Eric, I. mentioned in my identification thread for my male mustard spot I aquired, that I'd put some pics here, I didn't feel it appropriate to put this post in that thread, now the ID has been established. In relation to the pics you requested, I would gather you would want them as soon as I can get them, while the fish is not in optimal condition, so you get a good comparison with your ones, obviously your ones may be in a better condition for their size, as you've given them a lot of TLC. He's eating, that's a good sign and he loves his wood cluttered tank. (For the benefit of anyone else reading this thread he was in a tank at an LFS with no wood for quite some time, so I rescued him) I always found at least with my L397s the adults don't tend to go for veg as much now, they seem to grow out of it, but he's had a nibble on the courgette (zucchini), once he's had a few days to settle, I will attempt to get some good pics in some kind of holding tank, but probably not as good as yours! Like you've done with yours I will mark his progress, and the others I intend to get with photos.

[bekateen]

Hi Teresa,
Thank you. Don't sweat the rush. I'm more interested in seeing the extent of the odontodes in relation to the body size you already measured than I am in knowing that the fish is brand new to you and not conditioned. Take your time and don't stress over needing to take pics before it is convenient for you.

Cheers, Eric

[pleconut]

Ok Eric, I just got him a slightly bigger tank to go into, by himself for the time being once the QT time's up i might add in some tetras. It was suggested by the person who I got the L397s from, that the conditions in the L397 tank would obviously be ideal for him. But that also he might become territorial, but he did warn me to not allow them to cross breed, and that it wouldn't be right, I tend to agree with him. It must therefore be possible, in Panoquolus, but I'm not certain, still I'm not going to chance it.

[pleconut]

Hi Eric, as I promised you, a pic of my mustard spot, now he's settled himself into a cave. Also a measurement, the measurements are going by comparing him to the total length of the cave he's in. He's 4 inches, standard length 5 inches, total length approx, but i didnt include the long extentions on the tips of the tail, in the total length measurement as its quite difficult to do exactly when comparing to the cave length. He's been doing the same thing as my male L397s fanning and sweeping out poop from his cave, and lots of it. Only my male L397s do this, I've never seen the females do it. He doesn't have much odontode growth of which to speak, maybe just the beginnings of it can be noticed when you zoom in on the screen. I've added a pic of my hairy tail male L397 that is around the same size for comparison. He could in fact be a she, apart from the fanning/cave cleaning I've observed, which might indicate male. But until the weight goes on the sex can't be confirmed for certain. Does have extremely spiny pectoral fins and very long intopercular spines. Here's the pics please excuse the glare at the top on the tank glass.

Male ? Mustard spot pleco not very hairy.

Male L397 of the same size hairy.

The best I can do in terms of pics for now. Will try to get some better dorsal view ones at a later date. Hope this helps.

[bekateen]

Thanks for the pics, Teresa. My fish all have what I would call "rough" sides, but none yet have clearly larger odontodes.

Cheers, Eric

[pleconut]

He is covered in the fine hairs that they all have, both males and females. Lots of plecos have them ,the difference with the odontodes that indicates males, is the odontodes, as you are very likely to know, are more like larger spikes than the fine hairs.

[bekateen]

Yes, and my mustard spots don't have that yet.

[pleconut]

He? doesn't either from what I can see in the pic, in fact he's as bald, in reference to odontodes as my similarly sized female L397s. But fanning poop from his cave. I think he's still got some growing to do, if I remember correctly the clog page says 5,1 inches standard length, but I'll need to go back and check.
Edit, checked the clog still some growing to do.

[pleconut]

Hi Eric, one more tip to share, you may have tried it already with yours. He loves his carrots, just found a piece half eaten. I slightly blanched them, with my theory being that if it was too hard to eat easily, he'd quickly give up on eating it, but now he has developed a taste for it I will feed unblanched.

[bekateen]

one more tip to share, ... He loves his carrots... I slightly blanched them, with my theory being that if it was too hard to eat easily, he'd quickly give up on eating it, but now he has developed a taste for it I will feed unblanched.

Okay, thanks. I've tried carrot before with my ABNs an clown plecos, but not with mustard spots. Will give carrots another look.

Cheers, Eric

[pleconut]

I just picked up another one of these mustard spots, slightly smaller, this one I think is a female.

[bekateen]

Let's hope so.

[pleconut]

She was in the same tank, I didnt know she was in there, she's needing more input feeding wise than the male I think, I only think she's a female as her first pectoral fin rays are thinner, plus she's smaller than him in length, she is definitely not wide in the middle though, maybe i should continue blanching those carrots.

[pleconut]

Here's the very first pics I got of each one. The first at 5 inches total length, 4 inches standard length, the second at 4.5 inches total length 3.8 inches standard length, approx
Fish 1 I think is a male because of the much thinker (and spinier to look at) first pectoral fin ray. The second I think is a female as has a much thinner first ray, obviously I will feed them well to get them both to a good condition. I will attempt better pics at a later date to recompare them. Hopefully it will show you there's some differences between them both, though they do need some input. I think for now I'll stop at these two, now it seems i may have a pair, there's also a small difference in the head shape of each one i think, the second has the eyes set further forward, unless they show later on they are both the same sex.

Fish 1

Dorsal view much thicker first pectoral fin ray

Close up of dorsum - very slight odontode growth.

Fish 2

Dorsal view thin first pectoral fin ray

[pleconut]

Hi Eric, in terms of how you got your mustard spots feeding, and then improving in condition, obviously you've done a good job, both with these and the orange seam plecos. Did you find it easier to get them used to one food at a time. Or did you have the approach of putting a larger variety of food in, hoping some gets eaten, as i have done. Obviously with the Panoquolus its wood that's the main diet, i should think not much else is any good without the necessary wood required to digest it. My pair, the first one I got eats carrots, has eaten small amounts of repashy morning wood for the first day he ate the other foods i provided, but now most other commercial foods go uneaten. To me it seems it is far more paramount to maintain good water quality, (if anything this will prevent them eating at all) , than putting food in that's not eaten allowing them to eat wood, veg, some small quantities of repashy gel food, then gradually adding things in for variety once they get accustomed to the food but one at a time.

[bekateen]

Hi Teresa,

I hate to disappoint you, but I didn't really have a plan when I introduced new foods, other than to introduce them in order of what I hoped would be preference. For the mustard spots, that was wood first, supplemented after a few days with algae wafers and "omnivore" wafers, a slice of fresh sweet potato, and a couple of thawed "cocktail shrimp." Eventually I also tried red and green peppers (no interest) and boiled Brussels sprouts (they liked it). With the guahiborum, I started with algae wafers, omnivore wafers, sweet potato, thawed shrimp and "fake" crab meat (really fish meat), some days together, some days alone. There was wood in the tank, but I didn't think they were wood eaters. But as it turned out, wood poop was produced before other poop. Eventually they also got peppers, Brussels sprouts, and most recently broccoli.

[Mol_PMB]

Good luck to you both! I have some carrots in the fridge - might try offering some to my L397s

[bekateen]

Thanks, Paul.

[pleconut]

Thanks for the information re the feeding, I think.the most important thing is getting them eating wood, but providing veg also, so i will trial a few things as for the commercial foods I will take a go slow approach except repashy gel foods, last night it was panic stations as I discovered them both breathing very rapidly, params were fine, but obviously I dramatically increased surface agitation, Im relieved to find they were both ok this morning.

[pleconut]

There was lots of information shared earlier in this thread regarding wood for plecos.

Can anyone identify this wood for me. Here's a pic.

It's been in my L397 tank since I got them. It was purchased at an LFS. My L397s climb on it like monkeys, i frequently find them high up on the branches after lights go out, there is a few branches in their tank. I'm not certain it actually gets eaten but it is kept clean by them i should think submerged wood like this is part of the natural environment. My ABNs like it also and its now fairly soft. I'm stripping the bark and will get some sandpaper to finish it. I was thinking of then putting it in with the mustard spots.

[bekateen]

A steel bristle brush might make faster work for you to strip the bark.

It's a pretty piece of wood. Did the LFS not know the type of wood they were selling?

Cheers, Eric

[pleconut]

They sell it a lot, at a good price as well, they dont have a label for it, its sold by weight id have to ask next time and let you know. It floats at first and becomes fungus covered the ABNs love it when its like this.

[Jools]

I think it's a vine of some sort.

Jools

[pleconut]

Thanks Jools, I got it at Maidenhead Aquatics, along with some others. I think it may be called fishkeeper up in Scotland but I'm not sure, you most likely know the chain of LFS, i dont think the Panoquolus eat it, but they do keep it clean eating the biofilm from it with their monkey antics