Bad incident, take some caution

All posts regarding the care and breeding of these catfishes from South America.
Viktor Jarikov
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Re: Bad incident, take some caution

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Thank you Ms Noodle, for the helpful links and all you guys too. Hmm, there looks to be definitely something to it.

I'd say it'd be easier for me to believe if the use was recent, like within a minute or a few, and copious, then even the methanol hypothesis might gain traction. In 1 minute at room temp I imagine (perhaps erroneously) there would be no methanol left on one's hands, which would be present in trace amounts to start with anyway.

Methanol boils at 65 C or 149 F.

In 30 min I'd say surely forget methanol = technical grade ethanol hypothesis. It was either something else that doesn't evaporate quickly or at all, maybe the PEG = polyethyleneglycol, or your child (and you?) could have santised your hands first thing at home, no? Don't you do it, now especially during the pandemic, as the first thing as you come home - either sanitize or wash with soap?

Plus in 30 minutes an adult but even more so a child would touch and rub and stick their hands into and over great many objects, clothes, hair, body, etc. and likely wipe off most of whatever non-volatile residue was left.

But all in all, I am thankful you brought this up. I'd not want to take chances or experiment with my fish, even though I have no sanitizer in my fish rooms. Perhaps a really curious homemade scientist would study this issue with feeder fish in the name of reporting the findings and saving a myriad of other pet fish around the world. Do you think this'd be a good idea or would animal rights activists rip such a person a few new ones not seeing the forest for the trees?

It also makes me think the interaction of that unknown chemical and a fish organism must drastically differ in the mechanism and/or intensity versus human organism; otherwise, this would have been noted long ago and adjusted but as is, it doesn't present danger to humans. If we are speaking of the usual, non-banned over the counter, government approved hand sanitizers of course... So we shouldn't use personal experience or overall human experience with sanitizers as a guide in thinking this over...
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Lycosid
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Re: Bad incident, take some caution

Post by Lycosid »

Viktor Jarikov wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:04 pm It also makes me think the interaction of that unknown chemical and a fish organism must drastically differ in the mechanism and/or intensity versus human organism; otherwise, this would have been noted long ago and adjusted but as is, it doesn't present danger to humans.
Well, for us it's on our skin, which is a barrier against chemical harm. For a fish it gets into the gills, which are designed to allow chemicals (primarily oxygen and carbon dioxide, of course) to transfer into the fish's internal organs. I don't know anyone who injects hand sanitizer (or maybe I do and they're just not telling) but I would imagine that would be more comparable.
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MissNoodle
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Re: Bad incident, take some caution

Post by MissNoodle »

Interestingly searching ingredients...
We did use some foam based ones at one store prior to coming home which were not alcohol based.
Screenshot_20201120-194035_Samsung Internet.jpg
Go to the compound page.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzalkonium_chloride

Noted to be toxic
Screenshot_20201120-194440_Samsung Internet.jpg
Screenshot_20201120-194506_Samsung Internet.jpg
And is actively being used during the pandemic
Screenshot_20201120-194406_Samsung Internet.jpg
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Re: Bad incident, take some caution

Post by Bas Pels »

This stuff is used without any notification to the user? Incredible!
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MissNoodle
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Re: Bad incident, take some caution

Post by MissNoodle »

Bas Pels wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:42 am This stuff is used without any notification to the user? Incredible!
Its even labeled as nontoxic in their listings lol
https://www.sebocanada.ca/product/alcoh ... zer-550ml/

Marketed for schools
https://store.schoolspecialty.com/OA_HT ... em=1434917


But we DID use a foam one that day at the mall.
Viktor Jarikov
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Re: Bad incident, take some caution

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Thank you so much for this homework.

Overall, it does appear to implicate the seemingly benign surfactant benzalkonium chloride ... albeit it has been used in great many products for consumer eye, mouth, etc. treatment. With the all the info laid out in the foregoing, I fail to propose anything else.

Triclosan is also mentioned along with the benzalkonium but it seems benign to fish, if I read its wikipedia page not too hastily: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triclosan

From the benzalkonium page you linked above:

"Especially for its antimicrobial activity, benzalkonium chloride is an active ingredient in many consumer products:
Pharmaceutical products such as eye, ear and nasal drops or sprays, as a preservative
Personal care products such as hand sanitizers, wet wipes, shampoos, soaps, deodorants and cosmetics
Skin antiseptics and wound wash sprays, such as Bactine.[4][5]
Throat lozenges[6] and mouthwashes, as a biocide
Spermicidal creams
Cleaners for floor and hard surfaces as a disinfectant, such as Lysol and Dettol antibacterial spray and wipes.
Algaecides for clearing of algae, moss, lichens from paths, roof tiles, swimming pools, masonry, etc.

Benzalkonium chloride is also used in many non-consumer processes and products, including as an active ingredient in surgical disinfection. A comprehensive list of uses includes industrial applications.[7] An advantage of benzalkonium chloride, not shared by ethanol-based antiseptics or hydrogen peroxide antiseptic, is that it does not cause a burning sensation when applied to broken skin.[citation needed] However, prolonged or repeated skin contact may cause dermatitis.[8]

During the course of the COVID-19 pandemic, from time to time there have been shortages of hand cleaner containing ethanol or isopropanol as active ingredients. The FDA has stated that benzalkonium chloride is eligible as an alternative for use in the formulation of healthcare personnel hand rubs.[9] However, in reference to the FDA rule, the CDC states that it does not have a recommended alternative to ethanol or isopropanol as active ingredients, and adds that "available evidence indicates benzalkonium chloride has less reliable activity against certain bacteria and viruses than either of the alcohols."[10]"


... But its concentrations may be far smaller than the 0.15% usually used in hand sanitizers... per this:

"Benzalkonium chloride is a frequently used preservative in eye drops; typical concentrations range from 0.004% to 0.01%. Stronger concentrations can be caustic[11] and cause irreversible damage to the corneal endothelium.[12]"

More relevant info from the same page:

"Adverse effects

Although historically benzalkonium chloride has been ubiquitous as a preservative in ophthalmic preparations, its ocular toxicity and irritant properties,[18] in conjunction with consumer demand, have led pharmaceutical companies to increase production of preservative-free preparations, or to replace benzalkonium chloride with preservatives which are less harmful.[citation needed]

Many mass-marketed inhaler and nasal spray formulations contain benzalkonium chloride as a preservative, despite substantial evidence that it can adversely affect ciliary motion, mucociliary clearance, nasal mucosal histology, human neutrophil function, and leukocyte response to local inflammation.[19] Although some studies have found no correlation between use of benzalkonium chloride in concentrations at or below 0.1% in nasal sprays and drug-induced rhinitis,[20] others have recommended that benzalkonium chloride in nasal sprays be avoided.[21][22] In the United States, nasal steroid preparations that are free of benzalkonium chloride include budesonide, triamcinolone acetonide, dexamethasone, and Beconase and Vancenase aerosol inhalers.[19]

Benzalkonium chloride is irritant to middle ear tissues at typically used concentrations. Inner ear toxicity has been demonstrated.[23]

Occupational exposure to benzalkonium chloride has been linked to the development of asthma.[24] In 2011, a large clinical trial designed to evaluate the efficacy of hand sanitizers based on different active ingredients in preventing virus transmission amongst schoolchildren was re-designed to exclude sanitizers based on benzalkonium chloride due to safety concerns.[25]


Benzalkonium chloride has been in common use as a pharmaceutical preservative and antimicrobial since the 1940s. While early studies confirmed the corrosive and irritant properties of benzalkonium chloride, investigations into the adverse effects of, and disease states linked to, benzalkonium chloride have only surfaced during the past 30 years.[citation needed]

Toxicology

RTECS lists the following acute toxicity data:[26]

Organism Route of exposure Dose (LD50)
Rat Intravenous 13.9 mg/kg
Rat Oral 240 mg/kg
Rat Intraperitoneal 14.5 mg/kg
Rat Subcutaneous 400 mg/kg
Mouse Subcutaneous 64 mg/kg

Benzalkonium chloride is a human skin and severe eye irritant.[27] It is a suspected respiratory toxicant, immunotoxicant, gastrointestinal toxicant, and neurotoxicant.[28][29][30]

Benzalkonium chloride formulations for consumer use are dilute solutions. Concentrated solutions are toxic to humans, causing corrosion/irritation to the skin and mucosa, and death if taken internally in sufficient volumes. 0.1% is the maximum concentration of benzalkonium chloride that does not produce primary irritation on intact skin or act as a sensitizer.[31]

Poisoning by benzalkonium chloride is recognised in the literature.[32] A 2014 case study detailing the fatal ingestion of up to 8.1 oz (240ml) of 10% benzalkonium chloride in a 78-year-old male also includes a summary of the currently published case reports of benzalkonium chloride ingestion. While the majority of cases were caused by confusion about the contents of containers, one case cites incorrect pharmacy dilution of benzalkonium chloride as the cause of poisoning of two infants.[33] In 2018 a Japanese nurse was arrested and admitted to having poisoned approximately 20 patients at a hospital in Yokohama by injecting benzalkonium chloride into their intravenous drip bags.[34][35]

Benzalkonium chloride poisoning of domestic pets has been recognised as a result of direct contact with surfaces cleaned with disinfectants using benzalkonium chloride as an active ingredient.[36]"
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