black slime on gills???

Viktor Jarikov · Post by **Viktor Jarikov** » 15 Apr 2010, 14:22

Hi all, our hearts are broken today as we lost our beloved RTC Smiley. He was about a foot TL. Very good all around in life (we've had him for only about a month) and still beautiful in death. He was the only one feeding out of our hands and just had 5 raw shrimp 3 days ago, eating well and eagerly and wanting ever more but we fed him only twice a week, knowing about the clogging problems. He was doing so very well and his passing is a complete shock for us. He lived in our indoor 2500 gal tropical pond http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 25&t=29488. Other cats and gars - pondmates, including two other RTCs are doing ok so far.

His appearance looks perfect to me, nice form, fins, colors, firmness, good tummy, ready to eat again, good eyes, mouth, slimeness. No sign of violence. The only very wrong thing is gills, covered in blackish slime, which when smudged off, reveals red (normal color) gills. See photos below.

There are variables, of course, - several new cats were introduced into the pond the day before yesterday and also yesterday night. Also, 4 days ago I started a treatment (metronidazole, plus a little praziquantel and a little acriflavine) in part for some external problems other cats were having (skin discolorations, occasional rubbing, nothing horrible at least visually) and in part as a profilactic.

Any well-grounded opinions?

Thank you much!
Viktor

Viktor Jarikov · Post by **Viktor Jarikov** » 15 Apr 2010, 14:24

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Viktor Jarikov · Post by **Viktor Jarikov** » 15 Apr 2010, 14:25

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Viktor Jarikov · Post by **Viktor Jarikov** » 15 Apr 2010, 14:27

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Loco · Post by **Loco** » 15 Apr 2010, 23:10

Althugh im pretty sure it had something to do with the meds being introduced,im not sure but i really am sorry for your loss.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 16 Apr 2010, 10:03

Did it always have a black stomach?

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with this symptom (black slime or black stomach), but if the stomach turned black too, I'd say it's probably some form of internal bacterial infection.

--
Mats

Viktor Jarikov · Post by **Viktor Jarikov** » 16 Apr 2010, 20:02

Loco, thank you, I appreciate the sentiments.

Mats, I do not think the color of Smiley's underside ever changed. In fact, the other three RTCs, we have, have similar tummies - variably colored, patchy, mostly dark-brown/blackish and white/off-white tummies (one juvenile and two sub-adults). The pics in Cat-eLog show most RTCs with all or at least a good portion of their lower torsoes being dark colored (which makes for a striking white stripe in the middle) but there appear several (big adults only??) whose undersides look white/whitish.

Among other things, I feed them raw non-peeled jumbo shrimp. Can it hurt them? I am sure in the wild they do not peel crustaceans but swallow'em whole

The thick layer of blackish slime on Smiley's gills is easily rubbed off revealing red, ok(?)-looking gills - see photos. This morning, I managed to net another RTC, ~9", still living in our indoor pond (who looked kind of shaky but still ate yesterday night at the feeding time), and look at his gills - his are not red or pink in color as I expected to see, but rather dark-red, bordering brown/blackish/purple? The gills did not look excessively slimey either although he would not let me have a good look. Does the gill color differ between different families/species???

Viktor Jarikov · Post by **Viktor Jarikov** » 16 Apr 2010, 20:04

the last 3 pics are in the reverse order - first I rubbed off the slime and the result is the the top photo of the three... if that helps...

DJ-don · Post by **DJ-don** » 17 Apr 2010, 07:47

i would think it could be some form of pollution that caused it but i would have thought that would affect every fish thenn

Viktor Jarikov · Post by **Viktor Jarikov** » 17 Apr 2010, 12:55

Thank you, DJ-Don. Hypothetically, could it be that Smiley ventured out of his hideout and swam through the places where I dropped the meds in the water, i.e., where the med concentration was far, far higher than normal and that had eventually killed him (although he fed one day after)? I tried to add in say 10 portions in various spots around the 25 x 6 x 3 pond. Such a water volume, 2500 gal, calls for a lot of med. The only drug I tried to get the right concentration of was metronidazole, 10 teaspoons or 50 g, considering 200 mg per 10 gal as written on the bottle. Praziquantel and acriflavine were added in far smaller proportions, not enough by a factor of 5-10 to reach the suggested concentration in the whole volume. But these too had very high local concentrations initially in 10 or so spots around the pond (it takes more than an hour for my 2000 gph pump to turn the water over).

Richard B · Post by **Richard B** » 17 Apr 2010, 14:20

When adding any meds to a tank or pond i would suggest, using your case as an example, take a couple of buckets of pond water & add the meds to the buckets. then add the diluted meds to the pond. You can add a little then top up with water & repeat so keeping it dilute as it is added

Bas Pels · Post by **Bas Pels** » 17 Apr 2010, 14:22

Using the water inflow from the filter does help as well - but ion case of a tank with sensitive fishes, such as almost all catfish, a diluted solution, poured out into the incoming water from the pump sould be the best attempt, I think

Viktor Jarikov · Post by **Viktor Jarikov** » 18 Apr 2010, 13:53

thank you! I had thought about putting meds into the 96-gal sump, but then I thought that it might ruin the bacteria colonies: even though the meds at their target concentrations are claimed not to affect the beneficial bacteria, at 10-100-1000 times the concentration, I imagine, the drugs (meant to kill both external AND internal parasites AND bad bacteria) may wipe out any bacteria?

Viktor Jarikov · Post by **Viktor Jarikov** » 23 Apr 2010, 17:50

Crud!!! Well, alas, no more RTCs in the indoor pond - the other two RTCs have passed away - one (9") had similar blackish-very dark red-brown looking gills but not much slime and the other (1.5') had normal pink-red gills... No other external signs to blame. Half of other cats refused food Apr 15... On Apr 18, the ammonia shot to roughly 2 ppm. I have a feeling adding the meds did strongly affect the good bacteria and that is the reason for the ammonia hike. As of yesterday night, Apr 22, everyone else was still alive. I stopped feeding Apr 15, changed water 2 x by 50% each and added a lot of Microbe-lift-PL (half a gallon) as well as some barley-grown bacteria and enzymes. When PetSolutions bacteria come in, hopefully today/tomorrow, will add that too and then give the fish two weeks to fast.

Is 2 ppm ammonia deadly for RTCs and not for others (Leiarius marmoratus, Pterodoras granulosus, ID sharks (3), channel cats (3), TSN, Hemibagrus wyckii (yes, I know their rep, but this guy is still smallish, second smallest in the pond), some unknown cat sold as "Peruvian catfish" with a blackish/dark-grey long slim body and reddish tail, long barbels, and 4 types of gars) ?? Hemibagrus wyckii became the most lethargic of all the remaining fish. Same reason?

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 23 Apr 2010, 21:14

I'd say RTC are more sensitive to ammonia than many others, yes. They live in the bigger river systems, and there is no ammonia ever there. Many other species may be less sensitive, because they end up in still water for the dry season.

--
Mats

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 24 Apr 2010, 01:45

It is a shame your story didn't have a happy ending.
You faced a difficult challenge and I did not notice whether you examined the fish samples microscopically so you at least had a reasonable point to develop a treatment plan. But even if you had been able to narrow down the causative organism(s) I suspect only Chloramphenicol in its water soluble form would have had much chance of working but there are two impediments with regard to Cloramphenicol. 1.)It has not been available since about 1992 in the USA in the water soluble form and 2.) it would have wiped out your biological filter.
There are some similar drugs available only from veterinarians which may have been as effective. I have no doubt that this was a bacterial disease so flubendazole and metroniadazole wouldn't have been much use in this case.

I have to wonder if the Channel cats may have been carriers of a bacterial disease which the tropical catfish had little to no resistance. Microphotography records would have been nice to have been made.
The science of diseases affecting large tropical fish is still scant and will take many more years to develop more fully but with the increased aquaculture of other large tropical catfish will probably eventually be helpful in learning just what happened.

Viktor Jarikov · Post by **Viktor Jarikov** » 24 Apr 2010, 14:38

Thank you, Larry! It sounds that you firmly do not believe that the ammonia killed them. When you said "...the fish samples microscopically so you at least had a reasonable point to develop a treatment plan", I assume you were talking about the initial set of observations - discolorations and rubbing, which triggered my medicating the pond. No, I did not do any of that - that'd be a whole different level of learnings for me. Some of the owners of the LFSs tell me they have microscopes but have not used them for many years because this is not helpful enough in most cases they deal with. They just rely on observations and symptoms - not because this is a better way but because this has about as effective as microscopic studies in their experience. Perhaps, this means that microscopic studies is a can of worms of its own?

I've never heard or learned about Chloramphenicol. Why do you say "I have no doubt that this was a bacterial disease so flubendazole and metroniadazole wouldn't have been much use in this case."?

I do not know much about the meds yet. This is what the labels on the meds I used say:
(1) Metronidazole: for several protozoan and anaerobic bacterial deseases (Cryptocaryon, Hexamita, Ichthyophthirius); another bottle "Metro+" says for Hole-in-the-head and lateral line deseases, works systemically, contains slime-coat replacer.
(2) Praziquantel: for flukes, tapeworms, flatworms, turbellarians.
(3) Acriflavine (same as trypaflavine): Oodinium (Velvet), egg fungus, and open wounds as well as various external protozoan and bacterial infections.

You say: "I have to wonder if the Channel cats may have been carriers of a bacterial disease which the tropical catfish had little to no resistance." Yeah, the two 2' channel cats just came from my outside pond, see http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 13&t=29628 You say: Microphotography records would have been nice to have been made." Could you elaborate please? Microphotography of what? skin, gill smears? How would they help (technically)?

Thank you Larry and Mats!

Viktor

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 24 Apr 2010, 16:54

Photos of the samples taken from the gills and skin would add to our data base.
That usually requires a microscope with an oil immersion objective lens because that is the highest power lens on an optical spectrum microscope and bacteria are so small they require high magnification.
One needs to be proficient with a quality microscope and have some background in microbiology to be able to draw meaningful conclusions when trying to identify disease organisms. Based on my experience your problems with the catfish seemed to fit a bacterial infection better than those caused by flagellate or worm parasites. If you have much background diagnosing fish diseases with a microscope you often can tell by simple gross examination what is going on so a microscope isn't needed by everyone but when it comes to sharing as much information with others removed form the scene of the crime, microphotographs can be invaluable. Normally all you need to do is use smears and then fix the sample and glue a cover slip on to the slide.
I will not kid you. It is work and it requires experience to perform some of the basics of proper slide preparation. And even with all that work, we do not necessarily have access to the drugs which are likely to be most effective. I can tell you that the cures are not to be found on the shelves of your LFS assuming the disease is even something which can be treated. You will never when all your battles with microbes. They have a 4 billion year head start on us.
Because of the years of indiscriminant use of antibiotics in the fish business many drugs do not work very well any more because the disease organisms have become highly resistant to the most commonly used medications.

Viktor Jarikov · Post by **Viktor Jarikov** » 16 Jun 2010, 16:04

Ok, here is a continuation sprinkled with successes and one huge failure...

For the description and pics of the ponds and aquaria in discussion go here http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 25&t=29488

As stated above, I had lost all 3 of my RTCs in the 2500 gal indoor pond a while ago. In the beginning of June 2010, I got one more RTC locally ~8" and two more big ones from Connecticut ~1.5-2' (6 h drive one way). These 3 were placed in the 150 gal Rubbermade quarantine stock pond (along with two 1.5-2' TSNxRTC's). Meanwhile, I placed a cage (a 5 gal PVC bucket with ~~100 1/2" holes drilled in it) in the pond with a small ~4" RTC in it (and a small ~5.5" TSNxRTC). The latter was done to test the waters, literally

Both little guys did well over 3 weeks period, eating hungrily every chance they got, looking good, and growing... After the first week, the smallish 8" RTC was transferred into the 2500 gal pond. He has been doing well there since then. After ~2 weeks, the smaller one of the two big RTCs was transferred into the pond and he too has been doing well ever since.

Now, last Saturday, 4 days ago, I was feeding them and seeing how well they have been doing and not showing any signs of the symptoms that killed all 3 of their predecessors (the two last ones within 3-5 days of being in the pond; the first one held out for the longest but he was one of the very first fish ever in that pond anyway), I've decided to transfer the last biggest RTC into the pond...

Well, just as I was finishing feeding, I hear a strong splash behind my back and as I turn around, I see the big RTC flapping and wiggling on the floor!!!!! Oh, CRUD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He bailed within minutes of being transferred into a new and comfortable home

The distance between the top of the Rubbermade stockpond and the hardest basement cement floor is 3.5 feet plus he had to clear a smallish barrier, of a few inches; do not know how high airborne he went either but the splash he made was powerful. He weighs good ~4 lb, very strong built, thick, firm, very beautiful all around, healthy, one of the nicest RTCs I've ever seen...

The stockpond I usually left uncovered for the day but always checked on it every 1-2 hours - no fish ever tried to jump out of it until this happened. The tank was always tightly covered at nights.

Anyway, he hit the cement floor pretty good. Still trying to come to terms as to what just happened, I scrambled to pick him up and threw him into the main 2500 gal pond. Next morning, I examined him and found that his eyes were noticeably cloudy and the white stripe along his body was uneven reddish. He had some mucus hanging off the body at a few places. Things got only worse from there: his eyes became so cloudy yesterday that he looked like a blind with huge white cataracts, his skin developed whitish areas and other discolorations, some looked reddish/bloody. He was not breathing heavily throughout this ordeal at all but rather just barely moving his gill covers. Last night he went into the red-tail heaven... Oh, man!!!!!!!!!!!!! What a case of bad luck, or is it a RTC curse hanging over me? I love these magnificent cats to pieces but instead of an admirer, I am looking more and more as an RTC serial killer

Anyway, my speculation is that the fall damaged smth inside him, some internal organ maybe? Any other ideas - please examine the photos below and tell me if his post-mortum appearance IS CONSISTENT or NOT with this hypothesis, please?? Somebody with knowledge and similar experience? Can such a fall kill a tough fish like this one????

**** cloudy eyes; looked far worse when he was still alive than on this photo

**** top view - patchy skin...

**** left-hand side

**** right-hand side

Viktor Jarikov · Post by **Viktor Jarikov** » 16 Jun 2010, 16:12

**** RHS:

**** bottom view, note the swollen area around the anal fin, some reddish (bloody?) liquid came out of it...

**** a close-up of it:

Viktor Jarikov · Post by **Viktor Jarikov** » 16 Jun 2010, 16:16

**** the mouth and the gill covers inside looked riddled with small bloody patches, blotches

****

****

Viktor Jarikov · Post by **Viktor Jarikov** » 16 Jun 2010, 16:20

**** the gills, no black thick slime but I do not know if these look normal to the experts: I usually expect to see nice tender red or bright red gills but some (all?) of my (healthy) RTCs had this blackish gill appearance...

*****

*****

this concludes my sad presentation

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 16 Jun 2010, 20:27

That is bad luck. I have some fish that I just can't keep - and there seem to be no PARTICULAR reason that they suffer where others are doing OK - Callichthys callichthys is one of those that I have tried to keep a couple of times - both times they have survived for a while, but died eventually, and all other fish were OK in the tank, and no particular reason to believe that they are more sensitive than the other fish in the tank.

--
Mats

Viktor Jarikov · Post by **Viktor Jarikov** » 17 Jun 2010, 03:07

I truly hope this would not be the case with RTCs in my pond. I love these cats, the whole package. The other three (4", 8", and 1.3') are doing ok in the pond, which, as I said, leads me to believe for now that it is the fall that killed my big RTC and not some still unknown bacterial infection that Larry the Apistomaster so firmly believes killed my original three RTCs. Thank you for a consolation attempt though, Mats. -- Viktor

Viktor Jarikov · Post by **Viktor Jarikov** » 18 Jun 2010, 03:08

Hey Mats! Not so much reaction so far, heh? Maybe only few people would be able to say anything of substance. I tried my best to describe the issues and post good number of pics. What else could I do? To get more (of the potentially helpful) people to see it, would it be a good idea to repost as a new thread with a better defined and fresh subject title? Maybe people think: it is an old post, so probably there is nothing of importance being added at this point... I tried to change the thread title but it did not change in the list of posts, only for the first of the latest posts where I reported the latest successes and failures.

naturalart · Post by **naturalart** » 18 Jun 2010, 06:10

Hello Victor sorry to hear about your loss. I am the guy who gave some ideas for your filtration system.

You live in NY. I'm sure you could probably go to one of the local public aquariums and develop a relationship with one of the keepers responsable for caring for their tropical catfish, or maybe just freshwater fish. Their operation will be large and even larger then your operation.And if you wanted to you could also freeze the bodies for future study just in case

Viktor Jarikov · Post by **Viktor Jarikov** » 18 Jun 2010, 12:45

Thank you, Naturalart! Yeah, I know who you are

- not too many people are as helpful as I find you. Well, we do not have public aquaria in our neck of the woods. But I know pretty much all good LFSs and their owners. I volunteer/serve as an apprentice at a couple of LFSs trying to absorb as much knowledge as I could. I am also hooked up with several best pond/koi places too - I do the same at two of those.

DJ-don · Post by **DJ-don** » 18 Jun 2010, 13:06

this question may have been asked before but:
what type of water do you use for water changes and how do you condition it etc.?

Viktor Jarikov · Post by **Viktor Jarikov** » 18 Jun 2010, 14:30

No, DJ-Don, you are the first. Well, I use tap water for all my tanks and ponds - it seems to be just fine for everybody, including small RTCs in my tanks - I only lost 4 RTCs in my main 2500 gal pond, but again, the three that are still there seem all right and are eating. The pH is around neutral. The hardness I am not sure about. Looks like the water is neither hard nor too soft, just somewhere in the average/medium.

As for water changes: perhaps you or someone else may suggest a better way because the way I do it may not be the best. I used to do it by 5 gal buckets for my tanks - that is, fill up one bucket at a time then add the dechlorinator that also removes heavy metals, adds slime coat, etc - you know, the standard thing based on sodium thiosulfate. Then, I got really tired of hauling dozens of buckets around the house, especially after I got my 120 gal tank. My water changes are usually around 30-50% weekly - that's a lot of buckets for a 150 gal, 120 gal, 55 gal, and two 27 gal. So I got a siphon/vacuum driven by faucet (what chemists would call an aspirator), again, standard thing, and experimented with adding dechlorinator directly to the water remaining in the tank and then pouring the tap water right into the tank (via the same siphon except now shut off and working simply as a hose). It appears to work fine. I always use 2-3 times excess of the dechlorinator to ensure the almost instant dechlorination. My extra strength API dechlorinator also breaks the chloramine bond, for which purpose the dose one must use is 4 times higher, namely, 1 mL per 5 gal - that is the dose I up 2-3 times before I pour tap water into the tanks. I keep the water inside the tanks well stirred while adding tap water, again, to ensure as quick a dechlorination as it can be.

Now, the indoor pond is prohibitively large to change water by buckets

So I do the same thing there: siphon out half of water into my basement sump pump croak, then add ~400 mL of the dechlorinator more or less evenly to the entire pond area, let it mix a bit (the pump is never shut off), and then add tap water via a hose.

What do you think? Why did you ask?

DJ-don · Post by **DJ-don** » 18 Jun 2010, 14:46

hrmm i was thinking that there was maybe something in your tap water or something affecting the fish...but all your doing doesnt seem abnormal to kill the fish,,,

maybe this disease is quite common for the species??? who knows

black slime on gills???

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Re: black slime on gills??? red-tail catfish curse, really..

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