S. Eupterus White Lateral Line... Anymore Info?

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FeatherFinMama
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S. Eupterus White Lateral Line... Anymore Info?

Post by FeatherFinMama »

Hello Folks...

I read the previous five or so threads on this topic and am disappointed we still don't know what is causing this white line to appear on our cats. I have some anecdotal info to add that sort of runs contrary to an assumed premise, so FWIW...

I bought two S Eupterus in 1990, and still have them. Yes, you read that right. They are 24yrs old. One became dominant as is normal.

They lived in a 60g tank for the first 11 yrs of their lives. During this period the thinking in the hobby was that "aged water" was better and so maintenance was different back then. I changed maybe 10g a month. I never deep-cleaned the gravel to pull out the acidifying waste beneath the UG plates. The nitrates were naturally high, and the tank had short, green brush algae on the decorations and back of the tank, while I'd scrape the front and sides. The nitrates had to be sky high.

The water here is moderately hard (16dGH) and pH is 8.2 with KH 6, but I always kept the tank about 7.4 (used Seachem Acid Buffer to prepare water changes and the tank's equilibrium was 7.4 with the acidification keeping everything stable there).

The fish had a tankmate I bought at the same time (1990), which outgrew the 60g in the 11th year, so I moved all 3 fish to a 250g. The tankmate was a Distichodus Sexfauciatis or 6-Banded African Nile, and was very peaceful and loved swimming with the non-dominant cat, so he never picked on them.

By the time they went to the 250g in 2001 the thinking in the hobby had changed, and aged water was considered bad, along with UG filters, mulm under the plates, etc. The emphasis was on constant vacuuming and water changes, and keeping nitrates under 10-12ppm.

So I did not put a UG in the 250g and had to vacuum daily as the fish waste would float on the gravel. I was changing 10g water/day keeping the water parameters constant as they had always been (using acid buffer), but obviously nitrates were being kept ultra-low. And no algae was ever in that tank. (We can assume the TDS was lower too though no one checked back then.)

Well the cats loved the room to swim, BUT they both got white lateral lines for the first times in their lives! How odd it should happen when I was keeping everything so sparkly clean!

Flash forward 1 year later and their tankmate outgrew the 250g and I had to take him to SeaWorld where (after a quarantine period) he went into a 5,000g tank with other FW fish. At the same time I had to move and had no room for the 250g, so I had to sell it and move the cats back into their 60g.

Although I put the UG back into service in the 60g, I kept it very clean this time. I was on this new regimen of bi-weekly water changes of 8g and deep-cleaning the gravel to remove all mulm under the plates, etc. I also started using RO in water changes to bring down the pH rather than acid buffer. But maintained the same basic parameters they'd had (except for the water becoming a little softer from the RO, but considering it started at 16dGH or so, it was still about 8-10dGH.)

Meanwhile, the white line they developed while in the 250g, persisted. I try everything to get rid of it (not meds, but foods, etc) and nothing worked. I was frustrated that I was keeping everything so clean and they had this issue.

A few years passed with no change in my routine or in their white line condition, then a family member got a prolonged terminal illness and I become the main care giver for the next 5 years. For the last 3 of those 5 years I become completely overwhelmed and unable to care for the fish at all, except for feeding them and changing the BioChemZorb every 6-8 months or so. I did ZERO water changes, I didn't vacuum and I didn't clean the Fluval. They were virtually neglected except I was still observing them and could see they were fine, but I was not actively doing any maintenance for THREE YEARS. The pH was still 7.4, but the nitrates had to be off the scale.

My family member passed and I turned my attention back to my hobby and couldn't believe my eyes... THE WHITE LINE HAD GONE AWAY!!! COMPLETELY!!! Here I had tried so hard to keep them clean, and they 'got diseased' -- then I totally neglected them and they got healthier than ever!!!

So what did I do? I rewarded them by SLOWLY in phases, cleaning everything up. Over a period of a month or so I gradually vacuumed all the mulm out from under the UG plates, I cleaned the Fluval out, etc.. and (gradually) eased into using RO water with water changes instead of acid buffer to bring down the pH to 7.4 (in the change water, to match the tank).

And guess what happened after a few months of living in a pristine environment again? Yep. The WHITE LINE RETURNED. The dominant cat has it worse than the other. One side has a solid white line but I could only take a pic of his other side that has a couple blotches and a line by his tail. You can also see some gray circles along his jaw. That's new to this occurrence of it. They never had that before. http://postimg.org/image/t0swygla1/ (The blue line and vertical lines below the blue line are reflections on the glass, not on the cat.)

So contrary to this idea that cats need ultra pristine environments, it seems like in my particular case for whatever reasons, with these fish and my local water conditions, that my syno's do better with aged water, acidifying mulm under the plates, and sky-high nitrates! And I am going to reduce the water changes to 10g 1x/mo and stop deep-cleaning the gravel, letting that acidifying material build under the plates... and see if this white line doesn't go away again! (And yes, it takes a long time!)

I realize this is anecdotal and I am not certainly not extrapolating or promoting poor tank care. For one, let me remind any readers that this tank is way over-filtered. In fact 6 months back the Fluval started making a noise so I retired it after 24 years, drilled my tank, and put a 25g sump with a 3g homemade biofilter on there and a 350gph Dolphin pump. So it has the UG with two large powerheads, the giant Whisper with the best chemical filtration (trying Purigen at the moment as it is inert and rechargeable but I have BioChemZorb on hand as always) and the sump. Plus is it not overstocked.

But I am starting to think the old guard idea about aged water is maybe better after all, as long as it's purified by some good media. It's just hard to argue with experience! Especially ones you weren't expecting! I never expected them to get a condition in the ultra-clean 250g.... then I never expected them to get well during a period of no water changes or maintenance... and certainly didn't expect them to develop the condition again when I cleaned things up! Obviously, there's something there!

Anyway... FWIW this has been my experience with them over the last 24 years. I will find this thread again and post results if this forum allows waking a thread up after so long, but I won't know for awhile if my theory is correct. I am curious though!

Thanks for reading, to whoever made it to the end! :d
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Re: S. Eupterus White Lateral Line... Anymore Info?

Post by Shane »

Great write up. Your fish have had a fascinating history.

In terms of "old" water versus "new" there really is not a question in terms of fish health. There is a large body of scientific literature on the topic that has come about with the growth of the aquaculture industry. In fact water quality appears to be more of a factor in fish growth than even food.

So why did your fish develop lateral line issues in clean water? I really do not know, but your experiences point toward it being caused by factors other than poor water quality. I am more inclined to think that some change that came along with the poor water quality conditions such as a low pH, less frequent exposure to a chemical in your tap water, or even anaerobic bacteria was responsible for the fish healing.

In sum, while I am not about to go back to the "aged water" school, maybe we should be looking at factors other than water quality in trying to treat lateral line issues.

-Shane
"My journey is at an end and the tale is told. The reader who has followed so faithfully and so far, they have the right to ask, what do I bring back? It can be summed up in three words. Concentrate upon Uganda."
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Re: S. Eupterus White Lateral Line... Anymore Info?

Post by Silurus »

It appears that this phenomenon (described more accurately in the scientific literature as "lateral line depigmentation") is a result of nutritional deficiency. Maybe your synos are eating something growing in the aged water tank that is lost in switching over to clean water.

In any case, you can read about inducing LLD in channel catfish from the paper (click to download the pdf):

Corrales, J, A Ullal & EJ Noga, 2009. Lateral line depigmentation (LLD) in channel catfish, Ictalurus punctatus (Rafinesque). Journal of Fish Diseases 32: 705–712. doi: 10.1111/j.1365-2761.2009.01069.x
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Re: S. Eupterus White Lateral Line... Anymore Info?

Post by FeatherFinMama »

@ Shane and Silurus:

Thanks for the replies. I went through the same ideas both of you did. Wondering if chemicals in the clean water had something to do with it, but thought more it was something that accompanied the 'poor water' that healed it. And decided it must be the algae they were eating that was growing in the tank.

(BTW in thinking back more and checking my tank logs, I was sporadic with maintenance for that 5 years but it was only the last 18 months or so that I didn't have the wherewithal to do ANY maintenance except changing the BCZ and keeping an eye on them to make sure they were ok. And I made an entry in Oct 2009 in the log mentioning the lateral line [i.e. it was still there], so it had to have disappeared in that last year+ that I was literally doing nothing for the tank. Because it was in Jan 2011 my family member passed, and I turned my full attn back to the tank to finally notice the white line was gone.)

So back to thinking it was nutritional. I was feeding all along HQ flake, sinking shrimp pellets, algae wafers, blood worms and occasional skinned peas. But when I checked the ingredients for the algae wafers I found the first ingredient was not algae but wheat! (Which I am sure you all know.) I never imagined they could call a product ALGAE WAFERS and not have algae in them! So I went on a quest to get food with high algae content thinking maybe this was the culprit. I ended up with algae wafers that are made with actual algae, and spirulina flake. And it didn't make any difference that I could tell. But I still think the natural algae could be the key and healthier than processed, dried algae.

Regardless of what it is, one thing is clear in my limited experience with these fish at least... they have always been healthiest when nitrates are at their highest, so even if that is coincidental, it does point to seeming to say that high nitrates are not the dangerous bane, in and of themselves, that it is purported to be. Everywhere I read how syno's can't take high nitrates, yet my experience has been the exact opposite.

Am looking forward to reading the article on LLD which I will get to this afternoon. Thanks for providing that. I believe I will still slow down the water changes and stop deep-cleaning under the UG plates so that nitrates rise a bit and algae grows a little more. But whatever I do (and reading the article might change my mind some too) I will post it and the results.

Thanks again guys, for your feedback.

EDIT: I tried to read that article and could only find the abstract... though that sums it up I guess. However this doesn't look like de-pigmentation to me, except on the few spots below his jaw that are gray. The white along the side literally looks like White Out or white paint more than "lack of pigmentation" ...meaning it's bright in color. And they never developed hole in the head. I'm not sure if maybe there are differing conditions with similar looking symptoms that are all being classified as LLD when not everything is. Like the gray spots on the jaw might be LLD and maybe whatever they have can lead to LLD, or is even related to LLD, but it doesn't look like de-pigmentation to me. (Of course I am no biologist or vet.)
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Re: S. Eupterus White Lateral Line... Anymore Info?

Post by Silurus »

If you click on the article title in my post, you get the full pdf.
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Re: S. Eupterus White Lateral Line... Anymore Info?

Post by FeatherFinMama »

Silurus wrote:If you click on the article title in my post, you get the full pdf.
I don't think I can without registering. Not that it's the end of the world to have to register, but ... Thanks again.
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Re: S. Eupterus White Lateral Line... Anymore Info?

Post by Silurus »

In that case, I can email you the file if you want.
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Re: S. Eupterus White Lateral Line... Anymore Info?

Post by FeatherFinMama »

Silurus wrote:In that case, I can email you the file if you want.
Thanks Silurus! Please do. :d
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Re: S. Eupterus White Lateral Line... Anymore Info?

Post by FeatherFinMama »

After reading the article on channel catfish (thanks again Silurus) I'm wondering if anyone's tried Vit C to help this? Of course even if Vit C helped the thing that caused it would have to be eliminated. Maybe I'm not feeding them enough? But I probably fed them least during that period of neglect when the LLD went away completely. They were probably eating more algae then, because of that. And the article says green algae and Vit C can reverse or heal it.

I have read of some SW hobbyists dosing tanks with Vit C or letting Vit C dissolve in the sump (careful to add the right amount and monitor pH), but do FW hobbyists do this too? Supposedly you have to start very small @ 5pmm. Anyone know anything about Vit C in FW tanks?
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