Sexing Pseudacanthicus "Scarlet" L25

[ElTofi]

Hi everybody,

back on PC to ask for help... I've just received 3 Pseudacanthicus sp "Scarlet" L25 for my 1600 litres and I wanted to have your opinion on them.

Personnaly, I think I have 1 male & 2 females. I post 3 pictures, just to have your opinion... and maybe if you could give me any sexing keys thanks in advance... What I read about sexing L25 (Wels Atlas, vol II) :

For the male : brighter colors, bigger dorsal and caudal fins, "heavier" body and longer and larger head. Of course, a lot more of odontodes, particularly on pectoral fins

As far as I know, this first seems to be a female



This second is, for me, a female too :



and I have no doubt on the third, which is definitely a "cactus pleco" :



what do you think of them ? If necessary, I have a few other pictures which I could post.

thanks for helping.

[ElTofi]

Hello all,

here a few other pictures I shot on Thursday. First, the B female (or I guess so)




and then, the "I suppose so" male :




I'll be really glad to have your opinions.

thanks

[Borbi]

Hi,

that´s a tough one! Especially, since I never saw a certain female L 25. But, nevertheless, I will base my opinion on what I learned about other Pseudacanthicus spp. (sp. "3", "L 114", leopardus, "L 97", "L 273"). In those, head shape together with the size of the dorsal fin is the easiest way for sexing, in my experience. Odontodes on the pectorals can be a good indicator, as well, but only if you know how the fish was treated the past few months. I have the feeling that they tend to loose those if in bad condition, as in Hypancistrus and Peckoltia.
Considering the caudal does not make sense with these pictures, since due to bending of the fishes you loose perspective and it´s hard to tell size of the caudal at all.
What size are the fish? I guess something around 25-30cm?

In your first post:
The first fish (a female as you state) I´m uncertain. Could you post that very first picture in better resolution? Or count the soft rays in the dorsal fin yourself? Zooming into that picture, I ended up with 9 soft rays, which would make that a likely male, despite the comparably small dorsal fin. But that´s more like sorting pixels, actually. If, however, a closer look makes 8 more likely, I would say there´s good chances for that to be a female.
The second one I would prefer to wait for the dorsal to heal. It appears that it is completely torn in the middle, with only the ray standing out. In that case, it´s difficult to judge the size of the dorsal. Using my imagination, that dorsal would become even higher than the one of the third fish.
Since the third fish is as much a male as anything shown in your pictures, that would make the assignment of the second fish as female tentative.

In your second post: Fish "B" is the second one from the first post? Comparing head shapes, I cannot see any significant differences. Based on that, fish 2 would turn out to be a male, as well (provided, head shape does work in the L 25-Group as well as it does in the leopardus-Group).
Nevertheless, this would be easier to say if you had a picture with both fish in the same picture. That´s because different angles and distances might blur those differences.

Summing up: I´m quite sure with these pictures, that fish 2 and 3 from your first post are males. The first one might well be a female, provided, the dorsal fin is "short enough".
And as a general remark: recently, I learned, that roughly 95% of all L 24, L 25 and so on are male. Either, they are easier to catch or it´s simply because they tend to be much more attractive.
Of all L 273 I have seen so far, generally the ugliest fish are female. It´s less pronounced in L 114 and leopardus, but it´s very apparent.
So, if your first fish indeed turns out to be a male, keep looking for the ugliest L 25 you can find. It seems to me that people looking for "nice looking fish" to form a Pseudacanthicus breeding group will necessarily fail if not considering the inner values over good looks...

Hope that helps (although it´s probably not what you wanted to hear),

Sandor

[ElTofi]

Hi Borbi,

and thanks for your opinion, it does help indeed...

answering your question about size :

on first topic

picture 1 : SL 22 cm TL 30 cm
picture 2 : SL 24 cm TL 31 cm
picture 3 : SL 27 cm TL 36 cm

the B fish (in 2nd topic) is indeed the picture2 in the 1st topic. As the fishes are only in the tank from Thursday, I only have these pictures. And of course, I didn't think of making comparative pictures before release them in the big tank. I will leave them alone a few weeks and I guess I'll have opportunities to shoot comparative pictures in a near future.

I'll be back in a moment with a "cut" of the picture, zooming on the dorsal fins and close up of heads. See you. And thanks again, that was constructive and interessant answers.

[Borbi]

Hi,

those pictures do help a lot!

If you see them now, all three together, I more tend to see more pronounced differences between fish "2" and "1+3" rather than between 1 and 2+3. Although I´m still not certain about fish 2, I now strongly lean towards saying 1 and 3 are male (yet both have almost certainly 8 soft rays; but that would be just a plus: a Pseudacanthicus with 9 soft rays is almost certainly a male, but not the other way around).
With respect to 2, you might want to wait a few days rather than weeks until the fin heals a little (Pseudacanthicus have astonishing healing powers in the membranes of their fins) and then you might be able to compare those dorsal fins more certainly in the tank. Especially when you see both next to each other, the difference is very apparent (as it appears to be in your last pictures) and the females dorsal appears shorter. If you cannot see any differences, you probably have a nice group of male P. sp. "L 25"....

Cheers, Sandor

[Borbi]

Hey,

me once more, to clarify some points I mentioned in my description but wasn´t able to visualize accordingly "back then":



This is a picture of two Pseudacanthicus sp. "3" I am almost certain to be a couple although not totally mature yet (they should be at the brink of sexual maturity). The fish are roughly 13 and 15cm in size, the right one being the larger (which is good, because the other way round you might wonder if it didn´t develop the visible differences yet). Unfortunately, I wasn´t able to get decent pictures with erect dorsal fin, thus you´ll have to trust me in saying that they are clearly different in size.
What is cleary visible, however, are four differences:
Headshape: admittedly, is hardly discernible and probably only visible it you want to see it, but to me they start to become discernible and will be even more so in the years to come.
Size of paired fins: compare the paired fins of both fish: those of the left fish are significantly longer and larger. This fits to fin in Pseudacanthicus being bigger in general and in this special case might be helpful in tending eggs. Especially the pelvic fins are enlarged.
"Spinyness": is a little bit difficult to see in such a necessarily downsized picture, but what should be apparent is the fact that the right fishs flanks are only covered with Odontodes up to about the pelvic fins, while the left fish is spiny up to the head. Also, Odontodes are visible at the edge of the snout, which are hardly visible in the right hand one. In general, the Odontodes in the left fish are significantly longer and by far more numerous, see, for example, the pectoral fin spine.
Bodyshape: the overall impression of the right fish is more rounded and significantly broader around the girdle (that the right word?). This should not be linked to differences in feeding habits, since both fish are kept in the same tank under identical conditions and they are neither particularly slender nor unusual fat.

The question remains now, of course, how present these differences (remember: they are not totally mature yet, thus differences not fully developed up to now!) are in L 25-type Pseudacanthicus. I personally believe (with little more than pure intuition), that almost all such differences should be present in those, as well, but with less clearity.
And, as always, if you have clearly visible differences within your group, it´s easier to tell what a significant difference looks like and what´s usual interspecific variability..

Hope that unclouded a few things (though probably not particularly helpful in this very case),

Cheers, Sandor

[ElTofi]

At my first sight, I thought that male was on the right Cause it seems much more wider and stronger. I'll try to post a few pictures of my unidentified Pseuda sp "black" pair. In this last one, the sexing is very well defined as they have bred and I saw several times "who is who"

So when I read your topic with the explanations, I saw what you meant about the pelvic fins, the odontodes on the whole body, the general head shape (with odontodes on head) and so on... I could compare these observations with my Black Pseuda and it matches quiet well. I still have to do the same with the Scarlet's.

Personnaly, I think the most evident things are the pelvic fins and the odontodes on the body... that's an interessant tip which I'm gonna try to use.

thanks again for your interessant contributions. I'll stay in touch about this very subject.

[Cristoffer Forssander]

Hi!

I've seen two L25 females years ago... I would say that all you're fishes are males... but the high fin is a bit bad on one of you're fishes so perhaps ypu're lucky... but let them settle down and take some more pic!

Regards
Cristoffer

[Haavard Stoere]

Time for a revisit I think

Is it possible For you EITofi to pick out the photos showing the fish you now know is a female? And do the same with the photos of the males?
Unfortunately the proportions are a bit distorted because the photos are at an angle to the surface. It would be very nice to see the fish directly from above. If you ever photograph them again you can use a 500 watt worklight shining from one side, and don`t use the built in flash. It would be very nice to have comparative photos of L25 in CatElog.

[ElTofi]

Hi everybody,

I will take care to shoot new pictures the way Harvard says... but... not these days... cause there's a lot of "prenuptial" activities in this tank... it seems that spring has an effect indeed on my whole fishroom this last week :

1. Pseuda L320 have laid a spawning in the 375 liters (hatching is planned on next Friday)
2. Leporacanthicus galaxias are together in a cave from 2 days in 1600 liters and the female is just more than gravid
3. Retroculus xinguensis in the 1600 liters are digging big holes again...
4. Crenicichla sp Rio Guariquito have fixed up a cave together yesterday in the 720 liters and I wouldn't be surprised to find eggs within the next few hours
5. in the same tank, the Panaqolus sp L204 are on their way too, digging with caudal fin under the cave I've set especially for them

So I'm unable to disturb them at this time... but if there's nothing special till end of April, I will removed the whole thing in the 1600 liters to capture the L25 and shoot them properly.

What I can already say is that there is no doubt any more on the sexing of my Pseuda. The 2 males have so big pectoral and "head" odontodes that you can't ignore them... I will try to take close-up pictures without getting them out of the tank. Believe me, there's a significative difference

Once again, patience is our main value, no ?

[Haavard Stoere]

Once again, patience is our main value, no ?

It sure is in this hobby

You should not disturb your fish at this moment.

[ElTofi]

nothing to do with catfishes... but as I though, my Crenicichla sp Rio Guariquito spawned

Still waiting for another breeding activity in the 1600 liters for L25, Retroculus or L007

[Cristoffer Forssander]

Congrats! Thants a beautiful fish! Did they lay a lot of eggs?


Cristoffer

[bymoor]

In the meantime. What would you say about this one? Male or female?


He/she is around 10". I just got another L25 which has much more red/orange coloration in tail and fins. Too bad it's only 5" currently. What would be the best diet for the new one to grow well. I have one L24 too and it's growing really slow although eating shrimp and JBL NovoTabs daily.

[ElTofi]

as far as I know, based on my observations on my 3 Pseuda L25, I have noted 4 tips to sex them easily :

1. by the males, the caudal fin has very long filaments on both lobes.
2. by the males, seen from the side, the head is shorter but much more thicker too.
3. by the males, the supra occipital hook is much more visible (they have it between the eyes and first hard ray of dorsal fin, right above pelvic fins
4. by the males, odontodes are much more developped, especially on pelvic fins first ray, but also on head

As I have no suspicion of breeding behaviour these last days in the big tank, I'll try to take good pictures today. See you back on the topic this afternoon

[ElTofi]

and about feeding, here is the list of the diet at home :

Daily base :
- shrimps (deep frozen)
- krill (xl sized)
- hikari chips algae wafers
- Tetra prima discus

once a week :
- courgette (even if it's more for G. gibbiceps and Baryancistrus, I can assume the Pseuda tasted it eventually)

around once a month :
- white fish flesh
- stones covered with "aufwuchs", collected in rivers around home, or "home made" in a specific tank with green water, fertilizers and heavy lights

The tank has several inhabitants. That's why I feed twice (sometimes 3 times) a day and everybody has not the same interest on every food. What Pseud seem to prefer is :

shrimps, hikari chips, white fish flesh

[bymoor]

Thanks for diet info! Just took couple of pics of the new one:
http://bymoor.no-ip.org/kuvat/orch_1.jpg
http://bymoor.no-ip.org/kuvat/orch_2.jpg
http://bymoor.no-ip.org/kuvat/orch_3.jpg

Do you have picture of this "supra occipital hook" how it looks on adult pseuda?

[Haavard Stoere]

3. by the males, the supra occipital hook is much more visible (they have it between the eyes and first hard ray of dorsal fin, right above pelvic fins

Do you mean above the pectoral fins?
Is it the same structure as the hook on the head of leporacanthicus?

[ElTofi]

3. by the males, the supra occipital hook is much more visible (they have it between the eyes and first hard ray of dorsal fin, right above pelvic fins

Do you mean above the pectoral fins?
Is it the same structure as the hook on the head of leporacanthicus?

Exactly ! with a kind of "neck" right behind it.

[ElTofi]

I just took a shooting session, without taking the fishes out of the tank... but I guess it will be clear enough on the base of this 3 pictures :





you can see the 2 males and the female... they are mature (as you know) and size around 35 cm... I let you guess who's who...

[Haavard Stoere]

That is very clear indeed

It wan`t that clear when you purchased them

[Borbi]

Hi Farid,

..still (for reference), I would love to see some pictures showing the head shape if you ever move them around. I wonder if there are some clear-cut differences also visible in not-so-well conditioned fish.

Cheers, Sandor

[ElTofi]

Hi, Borbi,

I don't know if Farid has pictures which could illustrate this... actually, I (ElTofi) don't have any... but I took note of you request and next time I'll need to get them out of the tank, I'll take billions photos, promised...

[Borbi]

Hi Tofi,

darn, too many different names... Sorry, was talking about your Pseudacanthicus sp. "L 25"!

Cheers, Sandor

[ElTofi]

[ElTofi]

It took me a long time, but still...

here are pictures of my alpha male and my female...

The alpha male, biting a hikari chips



the female, right out of her favorite cave


I guess it's very clear sexing, based on the odontodes and on the body shape... But as you said it's much easier on well (and long time) acclimated fishes.

[Haavard Stoere]

Very nice

Is the female so pale in color compared to the male or is it the light?

[Lloydy]

Beautiful, I so hope I can get hold of a few of these at some time in the future.

[ElTofi]

Very nice

Is the female so pale in color compared to the male or is it the light?

no, it's not a question of light... she's different indeed.

1. body (and head) shape
2. pectoral odontodes
3. color

[Haavard Stoere]

Very interesting! I wish there only was a matter of walking into a petstore and choose from a large group of adult L25s. That would be nice