L204, please help sex them if possible, UPDATE

[jac]

Hello

I bought some beautiful new friends today The past few months I was looking for some new pleco's to add to my collection. I wanted something different as I have mostly Hypans. Then I saw these very cute guys and so I started looking up some info. And it turned out that they fitted nicely with my other (breeding)plecs.
So I treated myself to a new challenge.

They are a bit skinny but already messure about 10cm. I'm hoping with a little tlc they will devellop into nice young adults. I was hoping any of you could tell me what sex they might be. I was thinking 2 females and 1 male but like to hear your opinion

Here they are:
Top two I think are female and the bottom one a male.....????

Two females??

Male??




They haven't yet developed odontodes growth around the tail. I'll have to wait a bit longer to know for sure what sex they are. But I was looking at bodyshape.

Thanks in advance
Greets Jacqueline

[krazyGeoff]

Hi Jacqueline,
Is that 10 cm SL or TL (Including tail), I would have thought they would have shown odontodes if SL.

But anyway.... I think that the male is a male, and the female on the right (The darker one) is a female, and the lighter one on the left is a male.

Geoff

[jac]

Thanks Geoff. The lighter one was stressed, as soon as he was in his new tank it colored dark again
The 10cm was messured from head to tail (incl. tail but not the long tentacles on the tail). What do you mean by SL or TL ?

I've seen (older/bigger) fish in pore condition from time to time witch make great transformation when treated/housed right and so I'm hoping on seeing odontodes growth on these in a few weeks or months time.

[krazyGeoff]

Hi,
SL = Standard Length = (from Wikepedia) the length of a fish measured from the tip of the snout to the posterior end of the last vertebra.
TL = Total Length = (from Wikepedia) the length from the tip of the snout to the tip of the longer lobe of the caudal fin.

In plain language SL stops where the tail begins. Your measurement is TL.

These are generally very hard to sex, and I could be wrong about the lighter of the two in the picture together. The reason I thought that may be a male is because the head is longer, and the shape of the pectoral and ventral fins are different. As the males use these fins for fanning the eggs, I have observed subtle differences in the fin shape between the sexes.
I do think at least that you have both male and female.
Of course, time will tell.

Here are a couple more links to other discussions
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =5&t=23009
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 4&start=20

Best of luck.
Geoff

[DutchFry]

Looking only at headshape, i would say you have two males and one female, being the lighter one.

it's strange they don't have odontodal growth on the back half of the body. I have a male L204 which measures 11 cm TL and he's full of 'hairs/spines'

[andywoolloo]

that last picture, they look so beautiful all together.

I'll take a try and say two females and one male. Going by headshape.

[krazyGeoff]

At least the general consensus at this point is that there are both males and females.

[ElTofi]

hi all,

on L204, on my experience, the presence of odontodes is not only about size, but also about water parameters and social condition... I had a group of 6 L204 around 14 cm TL and even if I had 3 males for 3 females, the alpha male always shown bigger odontodes than the 2 others, who looked very similar as the female. The head shape told me they were male.

And when I split the groupe to move the 2 dominated males into another tank, one of them became a "true" male with thousand of odontodes. And the "alpha" male, who stood in the first tank, lost all his odontodes... I guess it was because he didn't need to fight any more...

[jac]

Thanks very much for all your reply's!! It's great that your all thinking with me.

If at least I could have male and female I'm very pleased Maybe when I'm back from my holidays I will buy two more and let them grow for a wile and see how they develop. Making my choise for a good breeding group attempt when they are in good condition.

@ElTofi, what you say is what I have experienced with some fish I have bought over the years. The water conditions of a store are mostly not suitable for conditioning/keeping the fish. I see that a lot with discus fish MY L204 had been kept in a small tank with a tiny bit of wood, no specific water conditions just anough to keep them alive I think. They would be wildcaught.

I hope that they will recover and grow into nice fish. I bought some more wood for them today.
It's nice to have pleco's witch don't spend there time in caves but are out in the open just resting on the wood. great little species!!

I shall catch them in a months time or so and make new pictures, hoping to see if they have grown and showing more odontodes growth.

Thanks again for all your help

[apistomaster]

My observations on the 8 L204 I raised to adults was similar. It seems that a dominant male does inhibit the odontodes prominence among the subdominant males to a great extent. Head shape may be the most reliable among a group of mature fish sharing the same tank. As I have said before, I regret trying to sex and reduce from eight to what I thought was a trio too early.
If I ever tried to raise more for breeding I would keep them in a larger tank for as long as it takes to get them to spawn.

[leej24]

So you're stating that males have longer heads than females (or is it the opposite?) and their pectoral and anal fins are broader with respect to the females' fins (which are used for fanning)? I'm confused because I am reading mixed results. Some clarification would be extremely appreciated! Thank you!

[krazyGeoff]

Hi Lee,

So you're stating that males have longer heads than females (or is it the opposite?) and their pectoral and anal fins are broader with respect to the females' fins (which are used for fanning)? I'm confused because I am reading mixed results. Some clarification would be extremely appreciated! Thank you!

The book "Back to nature guide to L-Catfishes by Ingo Seidel" has an excellent section on sexing L-Number catfish.

According to this, and other things that I have read, the differences in the head are "OFTEN" discernible much earlier in the development of the individual.....
Generally the head in the female is shorter and not so wide....... In some species the ventral fins in males are enlarged compaired to the female.....

But you need to remember that the differences are relative, and the age and condition of the fish need to be taken into consideration.
In this post alone, of the two "female" subjects, both have been "called" as males, by different people.
If you and Jac wait 6 months, or a year, and then reply to your posts as to the actual sex of your fish, then everyone will have learned some more, and I guess that is what its all about too.

For example, the "thin female" I used in your post, is driving me mad, because she does not quite fit, but I have put caves in that tank, and re-arranged it and everything, and she is showing no signs of becoming a male, even though she is at least as big as the male in that tank (so if she was a male then she could bit for dominant fish)...

A few other posts about these fish have always mentioned how hard they are to sex, and the articles do also.

I do not consider myself expert, just lucky that all my males are displaying like males. There are others on this thread that have been keeping these fish longer than me.
It is VERY unlikely that these fish will ever be imported into my country again, and I was under the impression that they would no longer be exported from Peru.
Even though they cost around $180.00 - $250.00 each, I would buy as many as I could get (and look after appropriately), just because they are so pretty.

Cheers

Geoff

[leej24]

Thank you Geoff,

Your explanation was very clear and understandable and I appreciate all your input into this matter. You are great!

[jac]

I'm seeing odontodes growth on at least one of the L204
They are doing great and making a big mess of the tank

[Farid]

hi there,
i'd say put some caves in th tank...the males will use them much more!!!

with 10cm i dont say anything...12cm is better 1,5 more years good feeding at 30°C

farid

[jac]

Hi there

It's been 4 weeks now. I had to collect some C. Sterbai fry out of the breeding tank so I took the chanche to catch the L204 again and take a picture. They have grown a lot and put on weight. Also the odontodes growht has started and a dominant male is clear to see. I don't know about he other 2 but I guess one more male and a female. Two, the dominant male and (maybe) female are always together on the wood. The other (maybe) male has to stay on the other side of the tank on his own.

Please take an other look and let me know what you think











Greets Jacqueline

[jac]

Will a female go into a cave??
There is one thats occupied a cave for the last few days. The obvious, dominant, male sits just above. The smallest one keeps lurking around the cave but gets shown off by the one inside and then flies back into the cave again

I'm still trying to figure out if I have both male and female, as I'm getting very confused now




Or am I just being to inpatient

[krazyGeoff]

Hi Jac,

Will a female go into a cave??

I have never seen any of my females in a cave for more than a few seconds.

Cheers

Geoff

[Farid]

hi there,
my female often just lay in these caves...even if they are far too large...this was a test to try another kind of cave to try them breeding...
before


after


diameter 51mm for the big ones:-D


farid

[jac]

Thanks Geoff and Farid for your reply's

Guess I'll just have to wait and see

[jac]

Well, some time has passed again and I'm a bit disapointed to see that they turned out to be 3 males
All 3 have a lot of odontodes growth on the tails, so I think there is no doubt anymore with sex they have.

I dont really want to sell them on. Thinking of putting them in with my discus. But I found L204 to be a bit territorial so I dont know if I'm doing right by the other fish in there I have a Golden Nugget, L190, L200 and two Sturisoma Aureum in the tank. Together with the 6 discus ofcourse. The tank would be big anough, no problems there. I'm also thinking if I want the mess so many panaques make, in the discustank
Pffff, it's hard...... In my breeding tanks I don't have the correct housing for them and I'm also collecting my very first L46 this week Wich will go into the breeding tank of the 3 male L204's.

Can some one help me dicide what to do

[krazyGeoff]

Hmmm,
Disapointing YES. Just goes to show how hard this particular species is to sex.

I have not kept Discus, so cannot help too much regarding you new delima about housing the L204.
I am about to (in the next month) transfer 1 of my L204 males to live with 6 L002 and 6 L104 in a 1220x450x450mm tank, and I think that the L204 will be OK in there, although it will be quite a messy tank with all those Panaque in there......

Apistomaster has lots of experience with Discus, and some experience with L204 so he may be the best qualified to answer your question.
I think that a plentiful supply of caves would be the "order of the day" to reduce aggression

Thanks for the update

[jac]

Hi Geoff,

Thanks for your reply.
I didn't put them in with the discus yet. There just to beautifull to put in a tank as trophy fish...and I really would like to breed with them. For the time being I've put them in with some Hypans wich I'm still not sure about if I whant to keep them. My gutfeeling is still not settled what species they really are and I only whant to breed pure species.
I am thinking about selling one of the L204 so I'll keep 2 males. Then I will try to find some females for them. I'll try and order some in at my LFS.

Thanks a lot anyway

[DJ-don]

hey jac dont give up just yet because if u look at the first reply of the other recent l204 sexing topic (by leej24) it says some females get a bit hairy too-or something like that
i dont really know much about these species but for all we know 1 of them could be a female

[krazyGeoff]

Hi Jac,
Never give up
If you need to sell one to make room etc, then if it was me I would sell the most obvious male, just in case .....

Also I wouldn't see the harm in keeping 2 as "trophy" fish for the following reasons:
They are pretty.
There appear to be more males in the industry than females, so keeping a couple of males as trophies won't deprive someone else of rarer females.
In a couple of years you will be able to sell the males as mature fish, should you want to sell them.
If it turns out that you have a male and a female then you could still try to breed from them, or sell them as a pair.

Personally I have not yet managed to be able to bring myself to selling any of my fancy pleco's.
Good luck with your decision.

Geoff

[jac]

Hi there,

An other up-date on my L204's just to let you know what's going on and making a record of keeping these beautiful fish, never knowing what will happen in the future

A few weeks ago I bought 3 more. I could take my fish out of a so called breeding group of 7 adult fish. First I took them all out of there tank and put them in a bucket. The LFS owner, witch I know well by now, let me pick my own fish and was very understanding of the difficulty of sexing these fish. I could take all the time I needed. I kept on comparing the fish to the most dominant male and selected 2 that were different. Later I selected an other one that could appear to be female. It took me over a hour to come to my final decision. Saying it was very hard is still an understatement!!!

When I came home I put the fish into the tank. Not making any more photo's because at the time I thought it would not make the difference, it still would be hard to tell anyway. Now I wish I had made the pictures so I could take a look hunderds of times, trying to look for differences of males and females.

What am I seeing now after 2 weeks is that 2 of the new fish are going and staying in caves. One will stay hiding under stone plates or wood. Still they haven't developed any odontodes growth. My 3 males still al have there odontodes growth and are not in caves but sit under the slates of stone.
I'm very curious what will happen. Will a most dominant male come forward? Will I have at least one female now? Very exiting. I'll keep updating this thread to keep you informed. And if I catch them out of the tank again I'll make some more pictures.

Greets!! Jacqueline

[andy75]

These fish are so hard to tell waht sex they are, i have 3 at the moment, (more on order) and i have have had them about 4 months now, im preety certain i definetly have one male, hes always in his favourite cave, and is getting a hairy boy. One i dont see much he/she is always hiding under the bogwood and generally just comes out for food. See the other one i have is also a hider but not in the cave but has got so fat its crazy, when looking from behind its very wide. Could this be a possible female?


Andy

[leej24]

I gave up on my L204s. I traded them to someone else who was more experience with keeping and breeding fancy plecos. I was confident that I had at least one female in the group because "it" would always hang upside down right outside of the male's cave.

Do I regret my decision to trade them away? Yes and no. Yes, because they're gorgeous. No, because their in the hands of someone who can care for them better than me. Would I like to get more? Most likely. I'm ordering some L134s at the moment and I would like to get more L204s in the near future if they're available.

[jac]

These two are constant in each others neighbourhood. Maybe a little romance???



Keeping fingers crossed

[jac]

Hi guys,

Yep, here I am again I took the oppertunerty to take new pictures of my L204 today. I've been watching them the past few months and now I'm having doubts about there sex...... I hoped I had one female but I'm afraid I have only 6 males. Please help verify sex if possible. Four of them I could catch, one later on and an other wouldn't come out of his cave. This was deffinatly a male, he had a lot of odontodes growth.

The four together:


Fish no 1 (male)




Fish no 2 (male)




Fish no 3 (male)




Fish no 4 (female????)








Fish no 5 (???)




All tips are welcome