Big plecs for big tankmates?

Flyfisher · Post by **Flyfisher** » 18 Dec 2009, 08:27

Hi, I'm new to this forum but have viewed many cat e log pages when researching my plec choice and also for considering a plec or a few for a larger tank next year. I have 1 l134 which is a stunning female but I'm thinking if I add her to a larger tank with the black bar silver dollars I have now and quite a few other large fish, that she may not get a morsel of food. I want eartheater cichlids and a few plecs, maybe 2 pairs of medium size fish. At the moment I'm thinking L124 and L200. Any comments and/or suggestions would be very much appreciated. Hi Matsp, I see you're a regular on here, I ain't surprised

good to see a fimiliar knowledgeable name.

Flyfisher · Post by **Flyfisher** » 18 Dec 2009, 08:34

Just viewed my above post and noticed the sensoring of the word cichlids. (C i c h l I d s). What's up with that!? Someone please tell me this isn't considered a swear word!? Hehe!!!!

Martin S · Post by **Martin S** » 18 Dec 2009, 09:27

Check out the FAQ, specifically this one to explain the * in cichlids.
Regards
Martin

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 18 Dec 2009, 09:49

Welcome along.

To comment on your fish choices first: Most eartheaters are best kept in a small (or even better LARGE) group, and most of them grow to about 20cm in length, which means that you need a decent size tank.

I think in general, as long as the cichlids are not terribly aggressive and large/predatory (which some are, but many are more moderately aggressive and not real pescivores), medium-to-large plecos will be fine in with them - of course, you need to give them their own environment where they can hide and "get away" from the cichlids - for example a fairly tight bundle of wood that have holes small enough for the pleco to hide in, but not large enough for the cichlids to reach the plecos. And caves of course.

(L75, L124, L301, ...) is definitely not a bad choice - I saw some LOVELY looking ones at Wildwoods the other day - only a bit expensive (from memory about £50 each), but real nice, about 7" long and quite likely sexable.

L200 are often available in fairly large size at reasonable prices, as is L128 which is similar.

Feeding can be a bit of a problem, but there are several solutions. One is to get fish that are more vegetarian than meat-eaters, so that they don't really want each others food too much - and then feed for example larger chunks of vegetable. Other tricks include food that is "painted" onto stones. You may want to look at my "article" which is linked to the right (under my name, where it says "Articles(1)").

--
Mats

Flyfisher · Post by **Flyfisher** » 18 Dec 2009, 16:31

Hey, nice to hear from you again, it's a shame what's been happening with PFK huh?
Anyway, yeah I'm still thinking ahead to next feb/march and setting up a larger tank, hopefully around the 6x2x2 size, and eartheaters will definitely feature in it, but I'm still unsure of how many and what size.
So for plec choices, which fish are vegetarians that I might like? L200s and L124s like meaty foods yes? What I've also been wondering is trying to choose good algae eaters. Everyone talks of bristlenoses being great for keeping algae down but are there any noteable larger fish that I should consider?
I do like L128s but they need lower temps, is that right? I'd be going for a temp that's at the lower end for eartheaters and higher end for my black bar silver dollars, so 26 to 27 seems ideal.
I feed cucumber to my L134 about twice a week and she loves it. I will post a pic soon if possible.
Wildwoods. What's that place like? I've been meaning to pay them a visit for a while now. It's about a 1 hour and 50 drive for me though.
Anyway, great to see you are here and cheers for coming back to me.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 18 Dec 2009, 16:39

I haven't been on PFK forum - I found that I spent nearly all day on there, a bit too much...
I think the L128 temperature should be about 26-27'C anyways. That's the temperature I have my trio, and they seem to be doing fine.

But they do prefer a bit of meat in their food. But I think it would be doable if you have a good space.

A 6 x 2 x 2 tank is great for many different Eartheaters. As to which kind you want/like/can find, I don't know. Maidenhead St. Albans had some Tapajos Red heads (which stay relatively small, so you can have more of them) at a good price of £7.50 each.

--
Mats

Flyfisher · Post by **Flyfisher** » 18 Dec 2009, 17:28

I'm strongly considering 5 or 6 redheads and maybe a couple of larger ones, either satanoperca, altifrons or Surinamensis.

But before I add these the plecs will be in there and it's good to hear your L128s have been good at that temperature, as a few places I've read that they come from higher up in the same river system as L200 where water temperatures are cooler. Fish are tougher and mostly more adaptable than so many people say though I'm learning.

Here's a few pics. Hope you like my homemade feeding posts

Cheers

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 18 Dec 2009, 18:24

Very nice idea. Never seen anything similar before.

--
Mats

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 18 Dec 2009, 18:35

I would probably get one group of eartheaters.

They are not all the same temperament, so different species will not necessarily go well together.

If you think feeding plecos so that the eartheaters don't get the food, or the other way around may be difficult, trying to deal with interspecies competition between, where for example the red-heads eat all the food, and the others don't get any - or the other way around.

Also, one large group of one kind of fish always looks better in a tank than several different, similar looking ones.

Aquatics is not stamp-collection where you want "one of each kind" - more like mosaic, where you want lots of similar to make the whole picture.

--
Mats

Flyfisher · Post by **Flyfisher** » 18 Dec 2009, 19:14

I kind of agree. I bought 6 of the same kind of silvers dollars, and I'm glad I did that, it's just hard to decide which group of eartheater group to go for and if I decided on let's say 6 altifrons, then once they're full size that would be too much I think, even in a 6x2x2. Decisions, decisions.
One of the things I love about this hobby though, is every tank is different, in both design and in fish. And it is a very personl thing and tatse comes into it, but tastes change and that's what keeps people doing the same hobbys for life.
I've a few months to make my mind up and as much as I wish it was now and I could go out and buy fish tomorrow, I'm really glad of those months and all they involve.
Did you once collect stamps? Lol

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 18 Dec 2009, 19:19

As a youngster I did indeed collect stamps, but I'm not the inventor of that expression when it comes to fish - I read it somewhere [I think in relation to Plecos in particular, where people buy 1 of each of the L-numbers, rather than trying to keep groups that could breed - but it does apply to many different fish types].

Obviously, the size of a group for a particular tank depends on the species of fish, size of tank, other tank members, and many other things. But that is one reason I recommended the Tapajos Red Heads - they are fairly small - about 13cm/5" fully grown, maybe a bit bigger. And they do well in a larger group.

Nearly all others grow fairly big, around 20-25 cm/8-10", and some even bigger - largest I know of is about 35 cm/14". And you definitely wouldn't want a group of 6-10 of them in a 150 gallon 6 x 2 x 2 tank.

--
Mats

Richard B · Post by **Richard B** » 18 Dec 2009, 20:31

just a few snippets based on things above...

Wildwoods - GO!

They have some great stuff - you can probably find some sp cheaper but if you want a lfs to get the sort of selection they carry then there are costs involved.

L75 - saw some superb 2-3" ones today at MA Northampton (not Harlestone, the other one), i think 34 quid each.

'plecs' have an amazing variety of feeding methods & when someone says i want something nicely patterned, doesn't hide, eats algae, gets big etc (for example), sometimes there isn't really an answer. Oto's & b/noses are by far the best for eating algae IMHO.

andywoolloo · Post by **andywoolloo** » 18 Dec 2009, 23:15

cool feeding aparatus

Flyfisher · Post by **Flyfisher** » 19 Dec 2009, 08:57

Matsp, so if I stuck with the plan of a group of redheads in with 6 dollars and 4 medium to large plecs, how many could I safely add to a tank this size? My plan is to have 2 good external filters.
With schooling fish like dollars and tetras etc I can totally agree that keeping a larger group is the way to go, but with plecs, and other fish that do well on their own, then so long as a tank is big enough I can very much understand folk wanting to keep different individuals. Not all wish for breeding. Most people ate not set up and able to handle this if it happens, hence it's the last thing on their minds. I personally, am leaning towards 2 pairs, where I hopefully manage to get male and females.
As plecs are known for hiding, I'm looking forward to witnessing the varying behaviour of different breeds as well as male and female behaviour patterns.

Richard, I will definitely pay Wildwoods a visit. My first phone call with them a while back was not with the most enthusiastic sales advisor, but I'll be there one day for sure. Prices vary so much on different species, and it seems that some shopshave bargains in some species and stupid prices on others, even comparing them to other shops in the same area.
Algae was fora period quite hideous in my current tank, then it seemed to die down, but then I added a secondary filter and as this one has began to mature, the algae has come back. I have to say, Mrs L134 is not a good cleaner. If she wasn't such a god looking girl, shed get the boot lol. So if I start another larger tank, I will definitely consider this when choosing plecs. Maybe a group of small bristlenose wouldn't be a bad idea, but I still want the larger more striking characters in there to.

Andy, cheers, they work a treat and if I'm away for a weekend I drop all three in there with various fruit and veg. Dollars eat the skin and plec eats the middle of cucumber, with apple and potatoe the plec has a little munch but doesn't go crazy for them like she does for cucumber.
I used aquarium sealant adhesive to glue lengths of wooden drink stirrers in holes or on the side of rocks that are the same as my tank decor. I just didn't like the idea of dropping a fork in there. Kind of looks worse that a plane or shipwreck ornament. IMO

thanks guys.

Bas Pels · Post by **Bas Pels** » 19 Dec 2009, 09:08

@ the number of Geophagus, these cichlids like to be amongst themselves - that is, a group of 4 is too small

They don't bother too much about conspecifics, in nature G sp orangehead lives in mixed groupes with 3 other Geophagus - G altifrons, G sp cf altifrons and G proximus. The problem is, a group of, say 10 of 4 species, will not look half as good as a groep of 1 species

This has nothing to do with wellfare for the Geos, but it is only a result of earlier experience by others

If your tank is large enough, you could add a group of, say, satanoperca - but than again, a groep of 6 or more.

Both groupes require over 400 liters of water, together with the water for the plecos, and for the silver dollars, this adds up to a nice sized tank. We usually calculate the contents by measuring the outside diameters of our tank, but I referred to real liters in the above. I once took the trouble of doing the maths - my tanks have between 68 and 72 % real water compared to their outside dimensions

So the 1000 liters your would require for these 2 groupes of cichlids, together with other fishes will end up in a 1300 liter tank, such as 270 * 80 * 60 cm - that is 9 feet * 2 feet 8 * 2 feet

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 19 Dec 2009, 10:21

I understand that not everyone is interested in breeding, but even plecos appear to do better in groups of their own kind, rather than on their own - but I used the "stamp collecting" in reference to the Geophagus in this thread, not the plecos. And I think we are in agreement there.

And I think the Red/Orange head Tapajos would be fine fish for going in with your other fish.

As to prices for fish - £35 for a 3" fish [very doubtful they will be sexable at this size] is far less value for money than £60 for a 6-7" fish that are definitely sexable - but of course, if you hare buying three, you may find that the £75 difference in price is enough that you can't quite afford getting the more expensive large fish.

There is also a false economy in buying poor quality fish - they will take a lot of work to get into good health, and you may well loose some.

--
Mats

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 19 Dec 2009, 10:24

Geophagus and their close relatives count as docile cichlids, not agressive ones

it's best to combine these with moderately docile pleco's, not nasty spiny territorial buggers. if you do, be not surprised to end up with stressed out earth eaters with scratches and torn fins.

Hypancistrus, Peckoltia, Baryancistrus, Hemiancistrus, Sturisoma and Panaque are all good pleco's that usually don't bother with the Geo's.

large spiny monsters like Pseudacanthicus, Acanthicus and other nasties best be avoided. else your Geo's will be harassed during the night and never color up properly

one thing: geophagus are obviously earth eaters and hence clean out the sand very well. for this reason it's best not to combine them with Loricariids that have similar feeding patterns but move a lot slower; Hemiodon, Loricaria simillima etc.
there's a foodcompetition issue if you do.

last: groups of characins (and if you have the roo Geophagus) start at 10.....or more.
6 Silver Dollars is way too few. try to get 15 or so and then you'll see some change in behaviour, I tell you ;)

Flyfisher · Post by **Flyfisher** » 19 Dec 2009, 16:46

Thanks so much guys for the replies here. I'm still quite new to all this and love to get feedback on ideas I have and hear suggestions of others who share the same overall interest.

Taking all your comments on board and from al I've been thinking about for some time, here is a suggested list of tank stock for a 6x2x2. Please help me tweak it to avoid mistakes down the line.

9 Black Bar Silver Dollars
8 Geophagus Tapajos red/orange heads OR 6 Satanoperca Leucosticta
2 L200
2 L124

Sidguppy,
Tell me more about the difference in behaviour with 10 to 15 dolars as suggested please????
I think my plec choices are ok for adding in with Geos, but if you can se a problem please say.
Thanks.

Matsp,
Red/orangeheads are still strong favourites, and i just need to get the numbers right I think.
I hear you on price and fish quality etc. I saw a stunning good sized L200 in my nearest store and I have no clue what price was on it, but if I coud have housed it, I'd have paid whatever they were asking (within reason).
Cheers,

Bas Pels,
That's great info on the Geos that live together, but yes I do agree about the keeping too many different ones together. If I had the room and ever did this, there'd be two at most and probably, as you suggested, be a Geophagus and a satanoperca, so kinda different. But alas, it's a fishtank of normal living room proportions were talking about, as opposed to a near swimming pool size thing.
A group of Altifrons is so tempting but I don't think 6 when adult in this size tank is right, do you?
Thanks again

wrasse · Post by **wrasse** » 19 Dec 2009, 17:19

Nice choice of fish. Trouble is, when you pay a visit to one of the good shops, temptation strikes when you see a fish you perhaps hadn't considered. Its addictive. You might see a beautifully marked jaguar cat, or boulangerella, or or or .....
'Resistance is futile'

One point - IME the dollars are VERY greedy fish, and fast. You'll need to supply a lot of food for the others to get a look-in.

Flyfisher · Post by **Flyfisher** » 19 Dec 2009, 22:26

Wait, while I google those 2 names.... Lol
I know what you mean. Hopefully I ll resist.
I know what you mean, i'm sure my other fish struggle for food now that dollars are larger and greedier. I have heard that they slow down a bit, and I hope this is the case when I mix them with others that need a decent amount of food.
What experience do you have of what dollars?

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 20 Dec 2009, 00:26

those lousy L numbers....I used google and L200 just gave me page after page of some 4x4 car.

that greenish Baryancistrus is a fine fish. if you get two, you might check out the differences and go for a pair.
they're not hard to sex if they're a decent size; males have "side burns" and thicker pectoral spines.

it's not an aggressive species, so it should be fine with the other fish.

same goes for Peckoltia sabaji wich is one of the gentler mediumsized pleco's.

Blackbar Silver Dollars must be Myleus schomburgki. a very fine fish and still I recommend getting as much as the tank can properly hold and your wallet can float.

the difference between 9 fish and 15 is easily explained: just try it.

on the other hand; these are fairly peaceful. so you can start with nine and add 4 or 6 of the same species later on.
the one thing you shouldn't do is add a single fish; but mixing group with group works fine with most larger characins

as for Geo's; I'd go for Redheads (true Geophagus) instead of Satanoperca. this because the Redhead is much more a shoaling fish. the Satanoperca is a bit more feisty and Myleus are easily stressed. more so than Metynnis.

so for the sake of the Black Bar silverdollar AND for the sake of the peaceful tank; the Redhead is a better mix. 8 is a fine number. it's a shoaling cichlid, but not a characin.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 20 Dec 2009, 00:35

is the L200 commonly available. is L200 "Hi-Fin", and quite rare. On my travels to various shops over the last two years, I have never seen a "Hi-fin" one. They do exist, and if you really want that, then you can probably find one eventually, but they are not easy to get. The Hemiancistrus variant is definitely quite easy to find - I could get half a dozen in an hour or two (during business hours of course). And if I had the money, I could get a male and a female from Maidenhead in St. Albans tomorrow - £140 for two fish, 6-7" and definitely sexable.

--
Mats

wrasse · Post by **wrasse** » 20 Dec 2009, 18:52

Myleus schomburgki are IMO the best looking of the dollars. I kept a shoal of 6 (15 would be stunning, and a lot of fish inches to consider). They grew well but some grew faster than others. They are highly strung, and I used lots of large bog wood pieces to create a sort of obstacle course, so that they applied the brakes before they rushed into the tank sides. I arranged the wood with swimming room beneath it so that a large part of the sand base was clear, giving room for a pair of G. Proximus and 2 x A. Adonis plecos.
It was a harmonious set-up, but the issue was getting food past the speedy greedy myleus to the other fish. I found they behaved like veggie pirahnas, although they will eat whatever you give them.
I mentioned Boulengerella bcs I've kept a similar fish - ctenolucius hujeta. These amazing fish are lightening fast predators of small fish (fine with your choices), but can be adapted to take prepared foods. Boulengerella are what I'll go for next time.

Flyfisher · Post by **Flyfisher** » 21 Dec 2009, 08:54

Sidguppy, last time I was looking at L200s I ended up buying a Nissan navara pickup truck lol Good point, on the goes over the satans, I do love the look of them though, so will have to own some one day

Im not sure what a safe number of myleus I can hold in this new tank, I'm still not sure how big these guys grow, you hear lots saying 6 inches but I've read possibly up to 12"! If I stick 12 to 15 in and they grow that big, I can see myleus schomburgki fillets ending up in my freezer! Lol just joking. But I'd love to hear from someone how's kept these a long time in a big tank.
Cheers

Matsp
is there much difference in max size between standard and the rarer Hi fin L200?
I like the idea of a high fin version, but I'd imagine it to be a high price yes?

Wrasse
nice to hear you had some myleus schomburki, I agree, they are the prettiest of the dollars for me too. I've had 6 for 9 weeks and they have grown from 1 to 1.5 inches to around 3inches now! And yes my other fish are on a diet with the way these dollars feed. It's amazing to watch! Earthworms, wow! It was like watching a pirhana attack, and I feel sorry for my plec because she used to get to sit over and chomp on a mussel for ages but now 3 or 4 dollars end up pulling it apart in mid water. My other fish have still grown ok but the growth rate of these guys is astounding!
What size tank were yours in? How long did you have them? And what was the max size they got to?

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 21 Dec 2009, 10:09

Flyfisher wrote:Sidguppy, last time I was looking at L200s I ended up buying a Nissan navara pickup truck

I've made mistakes in "I'll get X, but walked out with Y", but I don't think I've made THAT particular one... ;)

Matsp
is there much difference in max size between standard and the rarer Hi fin L200?
I like the idea of a high fin version, but I'd imagine it to be a high price yes?

The HI-fin supposedly about 4 cm/1.5" shorter - at least that's what the Cat-eLog says - which I think comes from the scientific description.

--
Mats

wrasse · Post by **wrasse** » 21 Dec 2009, 11:14

I kept myleus for about 18months in a 5' tank. The biggest was a good 6" and quite chunky too. I sold them on mainly bcs they were out-competing the other fish for food.
In retrospect, fast pimelodus-type catfish might hold their own with myleus. That would look great - all whiskers and silver in a frantic dash for grub.

Flyfisher · Post by **Flyfisher** » 21 Dec 2009, 14:06

I actually really like pictus cats, and my one worry for adding 4 mediums sized plecs in with a load of big Myleus and geos is that they just won't get any food other than tank algae, fish crap and cucumber. What do you think guys???
I guess the pictus would get to food quick enough but what about the lovely L numbers I'd like?

wrasse · Post by **wrasse** » 21 Dec 2009, 15:34

A big shoal of myleus eats a lot of food. All those earthworms you dug, all the shrimp meal you made - no wonder they grow so fast. To some degree you can make it work by putting food in at several parts of the tank at the same time, so some gets to the bottom. Myleus will eat off the bottom as well.....
I reckon the geo's would get their fair share of food, but plecos want these bulk foods too. If you can provide enough at feeding time they will get it.
Its your choice.

If you want something more sedate than myleus, what about angels? You might see something else on your next shop visit.

If I could unlock the secret to keeping glass knifefish long-term, I'd say try them. But I haven't cracked it yet.

Flyfisher · Post by **Flyfisher** » 21 Dec 2009, 16:12

My fave fish are my black bar silver dollars. So getting a larger tank is for them, but opens up opportunities to hold more large fish too. Plecs and geos. I know they can eat off the bottom, when I throw in loads of flake and for exMple 6 catfish pellets, within seconds, wherever I drop them, the dollars have a pellet each in their mouthes and are inhaling flakes and anything else at the same time. I break up 2 or 3 algae wafers and they get a face full before they reach the bottom! It seems a long time since I saw my plec or any of my corys tasting wafers or pellets. I'm sure they get small pieces but the plec comes out grabs something small then disappears. She looks healthy mind so I'm sure she's ok. My main concern is that if I go for larger plecs they may not get enough food. And in this case I wouldn't be ditching the dollars I'm afraid.
So would my best plec option be to only house smaller guys who can survive on algae and small amounts of food, or medium to larger plecs in the hope they'll compete for food with other fish in the tank?

wrasse · Post by **wrasse** » 21 Dec 2009, 17:40

At the end of the day the choice is down to you. Mix species that can live peacefully together AND thrive - not live a threadbare existence.

Big plecs for big tankmates?

Big plecs for big tankmates?

Re: Big plecs for big tankmates?

Re: Big plecs for big tankmates?

Re: Big plecs for big tankmates?

Re: Big plecs for big tankmates?

Re: Big plecs for big tankmates?

Re: Big plecs for big tankmates?

Re: Big plecs for big tankmates?

Re: Big plecs for big tankmates?

Re: Big plecs for big tankmates?

Re: Big plecs for big tankmates?

Re: Big plecs for big tankmates?

Re: Big plecs for big tankmates?

Re: Big plecs for big tankmates?

Re: Big plecs for big tankmates?

Re: Big plecs for big tankmates?

Re: Big plecs for big tankmates?

Re: Big plecs for big tankmates?

Re: Big plecs for big tankmates?

Re: Big plecs for big tankmates?

Re: Big plecs for big tankmates?

Re: Big plecs for big tankmates?

Re: Big plecs for big tankmates?

Re: Big plecs for big tankmates?

Re: Big plecs for big tankmates?

Re: Big plecs for big tankmates?

Re: Big plecs for big tankmates?

Re: Big plecs for big tankmates?

Re: Big plecs for big tankmates?

Re: Big plecs for big tankmates?