L204, please help sex them if possible, UPDATE

[jac]

Observation so far is that the new big male is bullying all the other L204 in the tank. He's really making a statement he's going to be the new boss Lot's of chasing going on.
The other new one (maybe female) is quiet and trying to avoid all confrontation. The other L204 males in the tank are all fully awake and exiteted.

I have put in other L204 before but never had this reaction before. Maybe it's just because the new fish are bigger than the others? But could it also maybe be an indicator that the new fish could be a female??

I know it's really early days yet. But it is very exiting for me Just having a female would be great!!!!!

[DJ-don]

Hrmm i just realised i have heard that looking at its bum can determine sex. maybe you could get shots of the bums and the experts could figure it out for you

[jac]

I think I know what you mean. The genital papillae of a male I think is pointed and for the female it is more oval or rounded.
I did look for this. The male has a pointed papillae but on the female it was difficult to see. I thought that it looked more rounded. I didn't take pictures..... I think it is also very difficult to see on a female that hasn't had eggs before?

I've let them go in the tank now so I can't take more pictures because I don't want to stress them anymore.

[krazyGeoff]

Hi Jac,
I am not sure...
At that size I would have expected to see the "tear drop" shape in the body more clearly.
For sure fish number 2 is "bald" enough to be a female.

Perhaps with some more conditioning it will become more obvious.

Geoff

[jac]

Thanks a million Geoff. I can always count on you for a look at my L204 fish

I bought these two yesterday from a guy who has competed with me for the past year to get as much L204 females as possible over here in Holland. But now for some reason (?) he has stopt with this species and put all his adults for sale. Out of the 8 I could only find this "female" like fish, the others were deffinate males or looked like to be (subdominant).

Why I picked this one. When I looked at the pectorial fins the ones on the male look thick and have slightly thicker odontodes. Also the fin looks shorter and rounded, maybe more suitible for fanning. He also has more odontodes on his cheeks and also has a more pronounced "cheekbone" struckture, it's wider. But above all, he has the most odontodes on his tail

The other fish has a different shaped pectorial fin, looks to be thinner and does not have thick odontodes on top. The odontodes on the cheeks are shorter and not as thick. And this fish has no odontodes on the tail, non at all (as you can see on the picture).

The fish are in good contidion but not in breeding condition. The "female-like" fish doesn't appear to have eggs, not looking gravid. Maybe that's why it's hard to spot the teardrop like bodyshape?

I've learned here that when in doubt, look for two fish that are different from each other. So that is what I did this time. Together with a little knowledge of the species I picked up over the past year looking for females....specially what not to buy....again.

Last but not least, I noticed yesterday a difference in behavior in the tank with the other L204 I already had. A lot of fighting... No casualties luckely this morning. The male as picked a cave as for the other fish has taken hiding under some wood and stones.

I know only time will tell..... I really hope so this time, I got lucky and found my female

[krazyGeoff]

On the positive side, the 3rd to last picture, that fish will have a golden sheen to its face, in real life.
I was trying to check my males but they were not wanting to "look at me".
However I seem to remember that the adult females had more of this trait than the males. (Of course my memory may not be serving me well here, perhaps I had the same discussion with a friend??)

Yes jac, always willing to pass comment on my favourite L204's.
I got another 4 juveniles the other day, and my females are looking gravid, so hopefully my summer will end on a high note

Cheers

Geoff

[jac]

I'll be looking forward to read about a succesfull spawning on your side Geoff I wish you all the succes needed!!

Here things are still heated. Lot's of fighting among themselves.... haven't seen this before and I find it pretty scary at times
I've got a breeding pair of L270 in there with fry free swimming now, some juvenile L66 and L174. The juveniles are quick anough to get out of the way but I saw the large L204 male fly into the cave of the L270 male He came out again few minutes later, no harm done, but it was scary to see.
On wednesday a guy is picking up 4 of the adult male L204 so I hope some peace will return after that.

I was planning on keeping the other 2 male fish together with the two new ones. Hoping the unknown one is a female. Than she can chose a male, or the males will decide who's going to be boss. Than I will remove the remaining males as surgested in the article I read here on the site.

[jac]

They have settled down a bit now. And things look promessing One of my large males I already had for a wile has suddenly develloped an interrest for the caves. The new male also has taken a cave. I'm not at all expecting them to breed yet but it could be a sign that there is a female in the group now And only for that reason alone I would be over the moon

[jac]

Small update.

All looks very well. I think the supposed female, really is a female Still no odonthode growth to be seen on this fish. She has really fattened up and has a big belly now.
Also there is a lot of communication with the biggest male, witch has taken a cave. The other 2 males no longer stay in the caves. I have seen the two fish interacting with each other by touching the ligaments on the tail and rubbing against the odonthodes on the pectorialfins. Yesterday I saw the female lying in the entrance of the cave with the male right behind her touching her tail. Sadly I didn't notice this and was feeding the other fish until I came to the tank with the L204. I watched for a moment and then turned away to put back the food, as I looked back again the fish had separated and moved away from the cave. Last night they hadn't resumed there activity.

So, I'm very hopeful with these two fish. Only time, patience and lots of peace can maybe bring me my first batch of eggs
Keeping fingers crossed here

[krazyGeoff]

That is fantastic news jac.
Sounds very positive

Geoff

[DJ-don]

great work jac!!

something must be in the water these days cuz my L104 seem to be doing the same things as your 204's!! great work

[jac]

Thanks!
As soon as somethings happening I'll let you know

[idunno]

Hi Jac,

Good luck in your quest breeding these guys! Too bad I gave up when my only female died. I hope you have a better chance.
Here's my experience:
I bought 3 young adults and turned out to be 2 males and 1 female. I had them for about 4 years and tried many things, you name it, to breed them with no success.
To cut the story short, my observations on my fish are:
- dominant male is very hairy on the caudal peduncle
- male has bigger/broader head and bulkier, gives the look of short and stubby
- male can be very aggressive towards other males
- male is brown/lighter in color than female, my female was jet black
- male has shorter tail filament than female, i find female is much prettier than male
- well fed female has nice round belly if you view from the top
- male can shed their hair thus confuse us believing it's a female, especially a sub dominant male to avoid dominant male

The 2 fish you separated, I put my money on them being a pair. You may have another female in the group.
Feed them well and keep in a big enough tank. They will show their true gender. I kept mine in a 4x18x20 by themselves with lots of wood. Try to identify each individual by their markings.

I hope this will help in a way or another.

[jac]

Hi @idunno,

Thanks for your imput!!

I really think I've got a pair this time. My guess is almost a 100% Only proof needed is some eggs whenever they are ready
I'm glad I never gave up on them, even tho it took me some years to find only one female. I'm very happy and enjoy looking at these fish every day, they are beautiful

She is fully rounded now and the male is always in his cave fanning like crazy. She always sits near his cave. These guys will never leave my tanks, I'm proud to have them! Having my first spawn would be awsome!!