Breeding Panaque cochliodon by Vires

[matthewfaulkner]

I've just read through Ingo Seidel's book (again) 'Back to Nature Guide to L-Catfishes', and I must have missed it before. In the Panaque section he mentions that Panaque cochliodon has been bred by Vires (1999). Does anybody know anything more about this?

I see in this thread (a very old one) that the validity of this was questioned but not resolved.

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... cochliodon

[MatsP]

I can't say anything about the validity of Larry Vires achievements. I have the book(let) in question, but it's not where I am at the moment. I will be able to check what it says in a couple of days or so.

[From memory, the descriptions aren't particularly useful these days, as most people already know that soft, cool water and more flow will help in any breeding effort...]

--
Mats

[Dave Rinaldo]

Larry is a member on this forum.
pleco_breeder

May he'll see this or you could PM him.

[apistomaster]

Larry called me several times a few years ago and we had some long conversations.
Color me skeptical.
When I breed a species for my first time I take photos and post them. I also later have them for sale so many have bought what I bred and raised, which is concrete proof of the accomplishment.

Larry talks a good talk and likes to drop names to bolster his credibility but he never seems to have fish for sale.
I have been unable to talk to anyone who has actually bought the fish he says he has raised.

It wasn't all that long ago that customers paid a lot of money for expensive fish they claim to have never received.
After some of that furor died down he did make some more recent posts.
Like me, he claims to have bred many difficult fish other than just catfish but unlike me he never has run any advertisements for the fish he says he has bred in large enough numbers to do so. We do have some common contacts but they never have any fish for sale that they claim came from him. Larry will see these posts or be informed about the by others so he can speak up in his own defense anytime he wants. Many who sent money for fish never received sent me PM's or e-mails asking for assistance in contacting him but he is elusive when his dealings go awry and their dealings did not concern me so I could not help them.
Larry has his side of that story and I have no idea what or whom to believe.

I have never seen any form of his book but I have read everything he has published on his web site. In many ways our circumstances are similar. We both live in fairly remote locations far from potential buyers but even so I manage to sell quite a few fish on line although I do not advertise much. I do get a lot of customers just from my involvement on several forums.
My customer base is nearly evenly split between planetcatfish.com and simplydiscus.com customers. I never offer fish I do not have nor do I ever sell my fish at small sizes as many breeders who advertise on aquabid,com do. I only sell fish I myself would be happy to receive and that policy has served me well.


Because of these things he often lays low although he was posting on Barbie's http://www.fishaholics.org forum last I knew but I haven't visited nor posted on her forum for some time because it is small, general interest fish forum catering primarily to beginners and topics of much interest to me rarely come up.
Here is his website and it has all the information on it that is in his pamphlet. He seems to move frequently and is setting up several new fish rooms in just the past few years. I would keep a some grains of salt handy when using him as an authoritative source of information.
That is always a good idea whenever there is a lack of good documentation of any claims of success no matter who the source may be.
I think if he was able to crank out the rare species as he has claimed he would need to have more fish room stability. Hopefully Larry will be in an expansive mood soon and answer more specifically the questions raised about his P. cochliodon experiences.
Larry Vires' web site:
http://www.plecobreeder.com/

[MatsP]

I just received an e-mail with Larry's description of how he bred the P. cochliodon.

It is described as an "accidental breeding", and apparently the fry didn't survive very well, as only two got past the egg-sac stage. According to Larry, ph was just under 7, soft water (80 ppm give or take), and the fish were fed on dog food along with whatever live/frozen food the angel-fish in the same tank. That's a very short version of it...

--
Mats

[matthewfaulkner]

Thanks for the info (and insight apistomaster). I hope Larry can respond and see what he says.

[pleco_breeder]

I can only offer anecdotal information on this as it's been 10-15 years since the spawn. It's a long-shot, but a couple of the older members MAY actually have the info that I submitted to cat-l around the time the spawning took place.

The tank that they were in was actually set-up for the angelfish. I had never spawned, or kept, them at that point and wanted to do something different. In those earlier days, I did the same thing as most people are doing now. A reasonable dry season, 2 weeks to 3 months depending on the ripeness of the females, followed by heavy water changes. The species is excessively aggressive compared to most plecos that I've dealt with, so no cave was offered. The female would get beaten mercilessly every time I had tried. Instead, the tank was decorated with several small pieces of driftwood and a couple larger slate-mounted pieces in a bare-bottom 55 gallon tank.

Dog food was offered daily for the plecos via a section of an orange sac, large mesh, with fishing line ran around the outside edge to make a loose "purse". The other end of the fishing line was tied to the tank canopy to allow me to remove excess before it fouled. A couple heavy plant weights held the contraption to the tank bottom. The males side of the tank had to be fed constantly like this to keep him from wandering to the other side and fighting the female for food.

The male eventually chewed a large hole in one of the pieces of slate-mounted driftwood and constantly stayed close to the hole. The hole was nowhere near big enough for either fish to actually fit into, about the size of a large peach.

My pleco breeding philosophy around that time was to do daily heavy water changes for about the same amount of time that the dry season was conducted for. I don't remember how long that was, and the notes have been gone for several years. My best advice on this would be to do the dry season for as long as it takes for the female to ripen well enough that you can easily see the area around the vent start to "bulge". Then begin the rainy season.

I'll close this out with a couple side-notes that I've noticed over the years regarding the most common breeding mistakes that may help with any potential endeavor into spawning these fish. First, and foremost, is that I never starve my fish during the dry season. Plecos should always be well fed in order to condition during the dry season and allow them to spawn once you think it's time to trigger them.

Second, and possibly just as important, is that the tank should still be cleaned during the dry season to prevent females from becoming stressed and using up nutrients they need for egg production. I used to do small daily water changes to siphon the solid waste out of the tank and clean filter cartridges in that water change water as necessary. Most of my more recent set-ups just allow me to siphon directly into a filter sock in the sump and continue using the same well filtered water.

Lastly, the thing that stops most potential breeders is patience. Most species of pleco are quite long-lived and don't mature till they're at least a couple years old. Some take a very long time. Don't try to force immature fish to spawn as it's often a recipe for disaster. Females mature earlier than males and a ripe female will often try to get into a males' cave when he's still too young. IME, this is what causes most of the breeding related fatalities when the problem could have been avoided by waiting till the fish are obviously mature before trying to trigger them to spawn. Young males seem to be notorious for being more aggressive with potential mates. Just because a male spends most of his time in a cave does not equate to being mature enough to spawn, but they are still very territorial about their home.

Larry

[Cristoffer Forssander]

Larry! Interesting ideas with unmature males...
So the problem is then to know when the fishes are actually mature. The amount of odontodes would possible be the sighn of that the male have become mature.

Cristoffer

[matthewfaulkner]

Thanks pleco_breeder. Did you manage to raise any fry? And how on earth did you discover dog food as a good food for plecs?

[PlecoCrazy]

I'm not sure how Larry came across it but since I was young, farmers and pond owners in my area would feed the catfish and other fish in their ponds with dog food. I'm talking regular 1acre+ ponds, not those little backyard things. Actually back then I don't even think anybody had garden ponds.

I think "The Greatest American Hero" ate dog food. Lol!

[pleco_breeder]

I actually used to feed dog food to the farm pond where I spent most of my spare time fishing when I was younger. I had never tried it with plecos before the Panaque, but it was already well understood that they needed a lot of fiber in their diet. Most commercial dog foods use plant protein rather than the more expensive animal protein. It was done as an experiment to make a lot of food available for them with the least expense. The only drawback that I remember is that it fouls rather quickly and needs to be removed and replaced twice a day.

Only two of the fry survived to color up and were sold. I was later told that they did not do well in the new tank and believe I may have sold them too young.

As to the comments about mature males, I tend to use the catelog rather frequently for that. When the total length is equal to or greater than the listed standard length is when I start thinking about putting closed caves. Until that point, all caves are just PVC with no cap on them so the females can easily escape if necessary. This works more often than not, but is still a very inaccurate method to estimate size and age of maturity.

Larry

[Suckermouth]

Hey pleco_breeder, I was curious if you noticed any sexual dimorphism in your P. cochliodon.

[pleco_breeder]

I vent check all my new purchases and knew they were a pair before buying them. Both had quite heavy odontodes, but the males pectoral hard ray was thicker. Without a side-by-side comparison, I don't know that I would've been able to notice that though.

Several people have asked me about sexing these over the years and nearly everybody thinks they can only find males. I think this is more of a case that they don't have enough mature fish available to compare the sexes.

[MatsP]

I completely agree with Larry - it is MUCH easier to sex fish if you have several of the same species, and that are reasonably mature fish. I would have thought in larger Panaque spp. that the gill-plate odontodes would be a sex sign, but I haven't kept them myself, so I can't say - I know several other large Panaque can be sexed this way. But it assumes the fish hasn't lost the "spikes" during transport or shop/wholesaler keeping.

--
Mats

[pleco_breeder]

Well conditioned females of this species still show quite large interopercular odontodes. I think that's where the real mistaken sexing is coming from. There probably is a difference in the quantity and thickness of the odontodes, based on other related species, but it's not something that I recall as being exaggerated enough to rely on for a positive ID. Likewise, this is the only pair of large Panaque I've ever kept. Therefore, individual variances (either heavier odontodes on the female or lighter odontodes on the male) could come into play. Both of them were "heavily decorated" in that specific pair with odontodes extending well past the first pectoral ray. I used to use that measurement as a sign of sexing, but realized it didn't work after several species proved me wrong.

Larry

[2wheelsx2]

Interesting information, especially about the dog food. We've had some fairly large ones locally, but only 1 confirmed female that I know of.

[Jake Adams]

Larry, your description of the spawning is so vague that I find it hard to believe. You make no mention of how big your fish are, no observations about blue eyes which aren't already common knowledge and as an owner of a 13 yr old blue eye with an interest in breeding, your description offers up no useful information. thanks a lot.

[racoll]

Larry, your description of the spawning is so vague that I find it hard to believe. You make no mention of how big your fish are, no observations about blue eyes which aren't already common knowledge and as an owner of a 13 yr old blue eye with an interest in breeding, your description offers up no useful information. thanks a lot.

Jake, this is not a constructive comment. It is antagonistic, and we like to keep it polite and friendly at PC, even if we disagree with a poster's comments. Negative comments shouldn't be personally directed.

Larry is unlikely to elaborate on his experiences with this kind of feedback.

If you don't believe his claims, it is good to challenge them with polite, pertinent questions, but try to keep antagonistic thoughts to yourself.

[pleco_breeder]

I normally don't respond to the type of flames above, but I'm in the mood to make a heartfelt statement on this one. I've faced a lot of criticism over the years about spawning plecos and try to just let it roll off with the expectation that someone will walk away with some positive piece of information that may help them. Then there are those who want to stand back in the wings (aka 4 posts in 11 months on the forum with at least the most recent being of absolutely no value) and leach from others experience. As I've understood it from the beginning of this forum, the idea was to share information.

Twice in this thread, comments have been made that had absolutely no reason. When I contacted Apistomaster, see the fourth post in this thread, it was in an attempt to buy two species of fish that I had been referred to him for as a breeder. He had neither of them available even though he was actively posting about them on this forum. Yet that was his criticism. There has only been one instance of anyone ordering fish and not getting them, and they got their money back and still decided to go on a rant on this forum complaining.

If anyone wants to continue the conversation started here, feel free to PM me as statements like these do no belong on a hobby forum. At the same time, if anyone has any real questions or comments which actually pertain to the forum topic, I'll continue trying to help.

Larry

[Jake Adams]

While I will agree that my comments may not be the most constructive, they hardly fall into flaming territory. I've spoken with Oliver Lucanus about breeding blue eyes and he says he's never seen a Panaque less than 18" sitting on a clutch of eggs. I just find it hard to believe you could give an account so vague for such a sensational "achievement". Like the Psychics who prey on the hopes of the bereaved, I feel it is necessary to call you out on giving false hopes to would-be P. cochliodon breeders like myself. Say what you will about my remarks, but at least I do so under my real name.

[Jackster]

There has only been one instance of anyone ordering fish and not getting them, and they got their money back and still decided to go on a rant on this forum complaining.

I know of one person who placed a $704 order with you and never received his fish. I also know he filed a claim at PayPal which refunded 0.27 cents because you had already cleaned out your PayPal account. He then filed a dispute with his credit card company. You seem to be implying that whoever this one and only person was, that they were given a refund, however, I don't think that was exactly what happened but please correct me if I'm wrong.

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 5&p=118672

I also recall that you claim to have spawned "Gold Nuggets". L018 if I remember correctly and since to the best of my knowledge no one else on the planet has accomplished this, I find it very strange that you have no photos of eggs or fry or anything else to back up your claim. Call me a skeptic but I have some serious doubts and I'm sorry if that sounds negative.

[pleco_breeder]

Jackster,

You're talking specifically about the same individual I mentioned. The side of the story that doesn't get told in that thread is that I had explained to him I was trying to get the money or fish from my source. Once someone files a claim with their credit card, paypal gets a chargeback which they are responsible for and pass along to the other party. The payment was sent to paypal and not the buyer as they were who currently held the debt.

BTW, gold nuggets have been spawned several times since and published about in DATZ at least once that I am aware of. I don't have most of my older issues anymore, but want to say it would have been some time between 2003 and 2006. I'm not the only one that has spawned them, but definitely one of the first.

As for Oliver, I would have to say he's got to be looking in the wrong places. My fish were nowhere near that size, closer to 8 than 18 and most likely not in captivity long enough to be stunted. I've never misled anyone about my name. I've used the same username on every forum I visit for well over 15 years and never made any statement than to say I'm anyone other than myself.

[saltcop]

I knew you'd turn up eventually Larry Vires aka "Thief". Jackster has it right and you don't but you're used to lying. I had several discussions with you via email and over the phone. You appeared to be a nice knowledgeable guy but that was just your plan, to find some sucker that doesn't know you, get his money and run.

You're talking specifically about the same individual I mentioned. The side of the story that doesn't get told in that thread is that I had explained to him I was trying to get the money or fish from my source. Once someone files a claim with their credit card, paypal gets a chargeback which they are responsible for and pass along to the other party. The payment was sent to paypal and not the buyer as they were who currently held the debt.

WRONG!!!! I sent you $704.55 through Paypal because you told me that you had the fish and will ship them in a week after acclimating them. After one week, I sent you an email to which you didn't reply. Two weeks went by and still no reply to my emails or phone calls. Three weeks went by and still no reply so I contacted Paypal.

In September of 08, Paypal sent Larry 2 emails to which he didn't reply. Paypal then sent me a reversal of $.27 because that's all Larry had in his account

Date Type Status Details Amount
Jul 17, 2007 Charge From Credit Card Completed Details $704.55 USD
Sep 7, 2007 Reversal Completed ... $0.27 USD
Sep 7, 2007 Credit to Credit Card Completed Details -$0.27 USD

I then contacted my credit card company and after several attempts to contact Larry, they were going to send a refund but his bank account had insufficient funds.

Larry had the opportunity to reply to everything I wrote about him but he never did. Like a coward, he vanished.

That was almost two years ago. Jackster and I kept in touch throughout that time so he knows first hand what went on. I recently found him on the AnubiasDesign forum where I attempted to contact him with again, no reply. I promissed myself that I would do my best to warn people about Larry Vires because he is very good at lying. Whether I was given a refund in part or in whole really doesn't matter. What matters is that Larry Vires took my money without any intentions of ever sending me fish that he didn't have. He ruined his own credibility and has no one to blame but himself. I would never believe anything that he says he did or accomplished because in my eyes, he's a liar.

Saltcop

[Andersp90]

While I will agree that my comments may not be the most constructive, they hardly fall into flaming territory. I've spoken with Oliver Lucanus about breeding blue eyes and he says he's never seen a Panaque less than 18" sitting on a clutch of eggs. I just find it hard to believe you could give an account so vague for such a sensational "achievement". Like the Psychics who prey on the hopes of the bereaved, I feel it is necessary to call you out on giving false hopes to would-be P. cochliodon breeders like myself. Say what you will about my remarks, but at least I do so under my real name.

I would be a bit suprised to see a species of fish that has to reach its maximum size to breed.

In my mind, a 14-15 inch fish should be mature.