platysilurus malarmo has knot in his filament. Untie or no?

[knifegill]

Haha, yeah. Now I don't know what to think. But I'll keep his water stable, aerated and clean and feed him anything he'll eat for now. I hope he eats while I'm treating his ich.

[Jools]

The exchange above left me pretty confused as to what to expect from my fish. I think I should just wait til Mats and Jools will reform Cat-eLog.

Just to clarify my concern: I thought I had two malarmos (based on PC experts IDs), which could top over 2 feet. Now I read (Jools says) it is nearly impossible mine are malarmos and are likely mucosus, for which Cat-eLog says under 8" max length. While this would be disappointing to me, it would explain why my 6"-TL guys have not grown any in 1/2 a year I've had them. But may be the max size for mucosus is wrong in Cat-eLog. As I said, I should wait til the experts are happy with what Cat-eLog states and then press for answers if I am still unclear.

Well, that's good knews we're getting data from keepers of these fishes.

Viktor, you're dead right. I think you've almost certainly got

Platysilurus mucosus

. I've have never seen a species restricted to the Maracaibo that is five times largers than the sister species found in the Amazon. So I "feel" the max. size is innaccurate but mother nature dones't have to follow my logic!

Given pretty much all hobby literature has misidentified this species too (or is old enough that the ID is correct given exports from 30 years or more ago) the only "safe" source of size data is the descrition. But that only tells us the size of the samples collected in the wild.

So, the data you guys have is cutting edge. If we can get pics with tape measures then I am happy to adjust the site accordinly as the LAST thing I want it to under represent the size of a big fish.

Meantime the cat-elog has been updated.

Jools

[Viktor Jarikov]

Excellent. Thanks much, Jools and Mats. If mine grow beyond 8" to any significant extent, I will do as you say. At this rate, however, I will grow too old to hold a measuring tape first...

[knifegill]

Decided to try a female gambusia as dinner. The platysilurus gently scooted the hapless livebearer back and forth a couple of times in the water column as he tasted her with his long filaments and slowly backed away as if disgusted. I watched for a good ten minutes with periods of absence mixed in and he still hasn't eaten her. I suppose I'll throw an earthworm at him and see what he does. He didn't eat the squid chunk I gave him yesterday, either. Hopefully he's just getting settled in. Fickle appetites are one of my biggest pet peeves.

[MatsP]

When the fish is recently introduced, giving it whatever food it eats is fine. But to make it eat what food you want it to eat, you will need to starve it for a bit. Most fish will eat lots of things if they are hungry enough...

--
Mats

[knifegill]

True, but I have no intention of starving this little guy just yet. He just spent eight months in an LFS being wracked with antibiotics and questionable water quality. I kind of hoped the livebearer would be a natural snack for him to get his eating instinct back up, but I am aware it's really soon for all this.I'm used to being able to choose the most active and hardy-looking fish from a group so I can expect a short adjustment period. But this catfish was the only one of its kind so for all I know it's the runt out of 1000 and I'm going to be pampering it all the way. I guess it's more blackworm for now, then.

[knifegill]

Viktor, what time of day do yours normally feed? After lights out?

[Viktor Jarikov]

I always feed all of mine before I go to bed, that is around 8pm-11pm, with dim lighting but I can see all clearly. My (apparently) P. mucosuses usually take a bit of time to come out unless I drop food on their heads. In their self-respectful manner they eventually reach the point where the feeding fest is at its hottest and join in. They never lose their dignity though. Unlike say little pictuses that whizz around like they are on fire, they take time to sniff out the food and eat it.

It's not to rare for food to still be there when I leave and turn the lights off. I don't know what happens during those "private catfish hours"...

[knifegill]

Oh, that's good to know. I might use the feeding tube for him then, as he'll likely be housed with my Oscar once he is bigger (if he gets bigger!).

Right now the big tank is only 125 gallons, but I have a 370 gallon pond on hand and enough heaters and pumps to make that work. I'm mostly hoping that the platysilurus can hold his own with an Oscar and an Acanthicus Adonis. Are your pair somewhat territorial or happy to get out of the way for other fish?

[Viktor Jarikov]

I never saw them defend some spot or other. They do not hang out together either. One chasing the other I saw once or twice.

I've never seen them being bothered by other fish or them bother other fish to any extent. But Oscar is a whole different ball game. Adonis I do not know much about at all.

I saw an adult tiger Oscar beat up a juvi-sub-adult RTC which was 2-3 times bigger in weight. RTC's fins, including dorsal, were bitten off piece by piece, the poor guy passed away after a couple of weeks in another tank (all happened at a LFS).

Mucosis is a fragile butterfly compared to that RTC. But my prediction can be entirely worthless.

[knifegill]

Yeah, he does act like a frail being even as it is. I may need to reconsider adding the Oscar to his tank (combining them eventually). My Oscar is a wild peru O and lacks the wacked-out temperament of most Oscars so he's on the gentle side and has always lived with catfish half his size without incident. Probably going to be a try-it-and-watch kind of process, which will have to wait until he grows larger.

Have the spots on yours merged into bars yet?

[Viktor Jarikov]

nope, the fish look the same as on the photos I pointed you towards...

[knifegill]

I emailed the transshipper/supplier of this fish and here are the messages:

Me:
[[Greetings from Everett, Wa. I hope today finds you well.

A local fish store sold me a platysilurid labeled mysteriously as "Tao Barbatus". While that name does not exist in the trade, the animal I have here does. This is either platysilurus malarmo or platysilurus mucosus and I was hoping you could help me pin down which it is. Thankfully, the only information needed is the locality of collection because p. mucosus is collected from the Rio Orinoco and associated bodies of water while p. malarmo comes only from Lake Maracaibo as far as anyone knows. Any help would be appreciated, especially by the fish itself.


Thanks,
Aaron.]]

The Reply:
[[Sounds like a catdfish.

Joe]]


Me:
[[That's correct, and I really need to know which one I have. If it's p. mucosus, they are said to reach 8". If it's p. malarmo, they are said to reach 28". The fishkeeping hobby as a whole is very inexperienced with this genus and I really need to know as much as I can to take good care of this catfish. I am good friends with one of your more frequent buyers and would love to be able to tell him and others how helpful you were to spread the good word about your business. All I need you to do is remember or check your records for who caught and imported the "Tao Barbatus" catfish for you about six to eight months ago. Then you can easily find out where they caught him and I'll be a happy customer. Thank you so much, I know you're busy and it is a very kind thing of you to do for me.

Aaron.]]

I am not expecting anything useful to come of it. My hope is that the first reply was made by a non-employee trying to make trouble. Hoping someone more responsible sees the second message.

Catdfish?



BTW, nobody told me they blink like cories! It's amazing. Those huge glassy cartoon eyes gloss over and roll back, then open up softly.

He's in my 55g now as a temporary display until I get my 125g resealed which is a task I do not look forward to and fear greatly. But aside from what looks like a permanent parasitic hitchhiker (teeny white dot that formalin did not eliminate) on his side he appears to be in good health and eating.

[Jools]

No harm in asking, but you led the witness. IME, it is better to ask where this came from rather than give options. Often (and in an effort to be helpful) other cultures will guess at an option rather than say I don't know and seem unhelpful. It was a very polite email, but maybe too complex. If you get the chance, maybe ask along the lines of "It would help me very much if you could answer this. What river is the Bagre "Tao Barbatus" from please?"

There are probably at least two reasons for this reply. Maybe they don't speak English, secondly, they're not the collector - transshippers and importers don't often know (except when that difference makes a big difference).

If fishes were being collected and exported from the Maracaibo, we'd see a lot of other things exported too. I'd say there is zero chance your fish is from there.

So, my point is even if this reply came back as Maracaibo, I would suggest using that to ID your fish as very risky indeed.

Jools

[Viktor Jarikov]

I keep my fingers crossed for you, Aaron.

Jools in all likelihood is right with his vast experience but I do not see anything wrong with your question because, given the level of details in it, it may help the trans-shipper find the answer (if they cared to find one). I am afraid they gonna blow you off.

until I get my 125g resealed which is a task I do not look forward to and fear greatly

Why? It is a trivial task just lots of menial labor. http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... ilit=+seal

But aside from what looks like a permanent parasitic hitchhiker (teeny white dot that formalin did not eliminate) on his side he appears to be in good health and eating.

Good job. So ich is gone. When the fish is fully acclimatized and strong and well, you may wanna consider just catching it and applying a little bit of iodine with a q-tip onto the spot, just for 5-10 sec and then releasing the fish. I tried that on koi and gouramies and it worked.

So, my point is even if this reply came back as Maracaibo, I would suggest using that to ID your fish as very risky indeed.

Jools knows what he is talking about. Makes it all the easier to forget about unhelpful trans-shipper. Perhaps you only feasible choice is to see if it grows to 8" or 28". If your fish is the same as mine, you will lose a few inches of your own height before it hits 8"...

[knifegill]

Good points, guys. I'm not waiting on a reply and I won't rely on its validity even if I do get an answer.

Iodine, like for human medical uses?

[Viktor Jarikov]

yeah, topical bactericidal solution in water

[knifegill]

Great, I'll probably do that in awhile. Are yours eating prepared food or are they still on live?

[Viktor Jarikov]

They eat as I wrote above. Never live. None of mine had any live for a year. I stupidly had tried that technique over a year ago and quickly went away from it. It is not worth the risk and the expense, unless you raise your own minnows. Even then, albeit cheap, it is very risky and unneeded and unwarranted, IMO.

I adhere to the school that says unless the captive fish will not eat anything else, period, do not feed live. I am yet to see a fish that eventually did not break down and did not start feeding on frozen and dried.

[Richard B]

I am yet to see a fish that eventually did not break down and did not start feeding on frozen and dried.

Victor - i applaud your stance on this, but tongue in cheek suggest never keeping south american leaf fish. I only seldom got mine to eat small live earthworms, and then only when they were suspended in the water not on the bottom, they weren't keen on live bloodworm, brineshrimp or daphnia etc. However any small fish (neon/guppy size) lasted less than 10 seconds.

We are lucky that a lot of predatory cats actively accept frozen fish, mussells, squid etc

[Viktor Jarikov]

Thanks, Richard. At the surface, my statement sounded absolute and arrogant but I've read about cases and participated in several discussions on PC where people clearly found out some fish could not be broken and would rather starve to death than eat non-live.

My thought when I wrote it was that most people in PC forums I am active in know how inexperienced a fish keeper I am. But you are right, others don't.

[knifegill]

Oh, I am totally paranoid about parasites and other diseases getting into my tanks. I'd never just buy a random batch of guppies and feed them to my hapless fish. I was thinking along the lines of worms, bugs, etc. I agree that if a fish is obligatorily piscivorous, one should culture their own food for it and not rely on disease-ridden feeder stock from anywhere. I guess I just haven't seen him eat anything but blackworm yet. I'll give it time and sneak out here at 2 am to see what he's up to. Maybe a midnight feeding is just what the doctor ordered.

[Viktor Jarikov]

o-oh, sorry, I forgot about other live foods. Right. No, I don't do these either. Expensive, messy, time-consuming. Unless I catch a bag of grasshoppers or crickets myself or dig up a bunch of earthworms, which happens.

Yeah, may be a good idea, though, to warn family, especially if they spook easily, have nightmares often, and/or own firearms...

Seriously, good luck. As I said, mine started eating fine, especially pieces of raw shrimp, fish, etc. and sinking Zeigler's catfish pellets ($45 for 44 lbs), the latter only if they are starved a touch... Try Mascivore pellets - people swear they are the greatest thing since sliced bread...

[knifegill]

Massivore is, indeed, one of my staple foods. It's too versatile to not have. The dust feeds newly hatched betta fry, it crumbles down to any size I need, and it's big and stinky enough to catch the attention of any large omnivore or predator. Never heard of Zeigler's. If their catfish food has ingredients anything like this:

FINFISH Slow-Sinking Diets Ingredients: Wheat Middlings, Fish Meal, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Hydrolyzed Feather Meal, Blood Meal, Dicalcium Phosphate, Soy Lecithin, Yeast Culture, dl-Methionine, Choline Chloride, Manganese Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Calcium Iodate, Iron Proteinate, Cobalt Proteinate, Calcium Carbonate, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, dl-Alpha Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E Supplement), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K Activity), Folic Acid, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Biotin, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C). Guaranteed Analysis Protein % 40 Minimum Fat, % 10 Minimum Fiber, % 4 Maximum Moisture, % 12 Maximum Ash, % 8 Maximum Slow-Sinking 5.0 mm (3/16???) Zeigler Bros., Inc.

That's one of their other foods. I looked up a few different lines of theirs and they all are comprised exclusively of worthless fillers. You are wasting your money and polluting your tank with this brand of food. Look for food made of items that fish actually eat like krill, blackworm, etc. HBH has a few good foods, as do Omega One and Nutra-fin, but read the labels. Every company makes a lot of nasty worthless food and one or two that are actually worth using. Even most of Hikari's food is just corn flakes and vitamins...not fish food. Massivore is on the better side but it's only part of a good diet and not to be relied on for a complete protein profile.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Thanks, Knifegill. Good ed. I will try to find the exact one I am using on-line and see what you think then. Maybe, hopefully, others will chime in too with their opines.

The one I use came from a reputable local koi-catfish farm in Canandagua, NY, Willow Ponds Aqua Farms run by a real nice guy Jim Kennedy. I am friends with him.

It sounded like a complete, self-sufficient formulation for a catfish with 40% protein from fish meal and inexpensive enough to feed my small army of cats and Co. If I used Massivore at ~$10 for 1/2 lb, I'd be broke by now. I know enough, or so I think, to stay away from the real cheap stuff like $20 for 50 lbs you can buy in local farm stores, here would be CountryMax, Tractor Supply Co, etc. These are ok for wild fish, like channel cats, being raised for food or sport fishing but should not be fed alone or fed as the vast majority of the diet.

Anyway, will be back with more info on my pellets.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Ok. It looks like what you quoted above is close. Here is the product description from the manufacturer: http://www.zeiglerfeed.com/product_lite ... Silver.pdf

The list of ingredients off of the bags I have differs slightly from what is in the link above but mostly, they match.

Thank you for looking it up. You obviously care and I appreciate it a lot. It is also obvious you are far more experienced in fish foods than me.

Are you standing by your rather strong statement that, in your words, "You are wasting your money and polluting your tank with this brand of food."...?

Also, you said "I looked up a few different lines of theirs and they all are comprised exclusively of worthless fillers." "Exclusively"? Is this an emotional, exaggerated statement or, in your opinion, properly conveys your technical opinion of it?

[knifegill]

Well, the only things close to fish food in that list of ingredients are "Fish meal" and "blood meal" but blood meal is usually pig blood for whatever reason and I don't a whole lot of catfish that jump out of water and latch onto pigs. Just imagine, ingredient by ingredient, if you would feed that to your fish. Would you grind up old feathers into a paste and feed it to your fish? Would your fish be able to digest it or would it just contribute to a large poo at the end of the day? Would you put wheat, yeast, and soybeans into your aquarium? Here's a food made of what fish eat for the most part:

Omega One Veggie Rounds:
Whole Kelp, Spirulina, Whole salmon, halibut, seafood mix (including krill, whole herring and shrimp) wheat flourm wheat gluten, (list of vitamins, etc.)

See how long it took to get to the binding agent? Wheat doesn't appear until long after the actual things that fish eat. With an array of foods made like this, you can feed your fish twice or thrice a week and they'll get all the nutrition without the useless extra calories of soybeans and...feathers.

Don't expect many foods to be that good. I feed over 15 types of dry foods and few of them are as amazing as Omega One, but only a few are more filler than killer. And seeing one major binding agent in the first five ingredients doesn't necessarily mean it's worthless.

HBH African Cichlid Attack is almost a perfect catfish food but it spreads the quality ingredients further down into the list than would be ideal. It has carrot, beet and red pepper powder among other nutritious and color-enhancing components. Yeah, it eventually gets into yeast and gluten. But for it's functionality, palatability, size, and cost, it's great food.

HBH Algae grazers is also a pristine food. And while is costs more per ounce, it is far superior to feather meal in nutrient content and you'll be feeding less of it to keep your fish happy. Imagine you are currently feeding your fish twinkies and kool-aid, and you're switching to steak and canned peas. You need a lot less steak and peas to fill an animal up than you would twinkies and kool-aid.

[Viktor Jarikov]

KG: but blood meal is usually pig blood for whatever reason and I don't a whole lot of catfish that jump out of water and latch onto pigs...

VJ: it's all your fault - I cannot get the image out of my head...

I know quite little of fish metabolism and digestive process. Perhaps, the role of feathers is roughage? Feathers and hairs cannot be digested usually, except by crocs with a stomach pH of ~1. People cannot digest fiber at all but need it to have good sweeping/cleaning motion of bowel movement.

I thought, perhaps wrongly, that fish need everything any other living organisms do, carbs, proteins, fats, vitamins, sugars, supplements, etc. but in a different proportion, of course. Even though most all foods break down to the basic building blocks during digestion, intuitively (without knowledge), I tend to agree with you - the more natural food is, the better. In fact, this is how I try to eat.

Is wheat considered entirely inert binder? Depending which portion of the wheat grain was used, it is mostly carbohydrates or that + proteins, minerals, vitamins, enzymes, and fiber. Do cats not need/digest carbs? Asking because I don't know.

I do think that Omega One ingred. list is very nice and to an ignorant eye like mine is clearly far better than the list for the Ziegler's pellets you cited above.

Anybody else out there with knowledge?

[Viktor Jarikov]

Wheat middlings
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wheat middlings or wheat mill run, stated by AAFCO, is coarse and fine particles of wheat bran and fine particles of wheat shorts, wheat germ, wheat flour and offal from the "tail of the mill".

Wheat middlings is an inexpensive byproduct intermediate of human food processing, commonly referred to as floor sweepings. It is an inexpensive filler in pet food and a basis for manufacturing semolina. It has 96 percent of the energy value of barley and 91 percent of the energy value of corn.[1]

Wheat middlings are currently being researched as a biofuel.[2] Due to their high energy content and inexpensiveness, they are an ideal candidate to burn in home burners. One of the burners being researched is the USDA-OARDC's AFBC, which is a small scale Atmospheric Fluidized Bed Combustor.[3] Dr. Harold Keener has led the research on the OARDC-AFBC for the past twenty years, though the project was delayed after the energy crisis ended.



VJ: Yeah, this sounds like this is a trashy ingredient, which I struggle to understand because wheat bran is, I believe, the best portion of the wheat grain (the rest of the grain is almost pure carbs lacking vitamins, minerals, and enzymes). Bran is the reason that whole-wheat bread is far superior in a healthy diet than bleached, enriched wheat flour-based bread:



From Wikipedia again: Bran is the hard outer layer of grain and consists of combined aleurone and pericarp. Along with germ, it is an integral part of whole grains, and is often produced as a by-product of milling in the production of refined grains. When bran is removed from grains, the latter lose a portion of their nutritional value. Bran is present in and may be milled from any cereal grain, including rice, corn (maize), wheat, oats, barley and millet. Bran should not be confused with chaff, which is coarser scaly material surrounding the grain, but not forming part of the grain itself.

Bran is particularly rich in dietary fiber and essential fatty acids and contains significant quantities of starch, protein, vitamins and dietary minerals.

[knifegill]

Understanding the perfect diet for an animal is just as much a wash as finding the perfect diet for a human. One thing is certain. Grains, breads and products made from them are not good sources of much of anything (except excessive empty calories) that can't be found in more nutrient dense sources of whole foods like greens, eggs, meat and the like. Grain is not a good staple for humans and I struggle to see any way it could be ideal for creatures that subsist almost exclusively on small invertebrates, algae, plants and the eggs of other creatures. So the closer a food gets to being made of bugs, worms, greenery and eggs the more I like it. No, I haven't got the resources to test which exact foods are most completely absorbed by which fish. But I do believe that these creatures have adapted to a part of the food chain that should not be difficult to provide in captivity. If I were made of money, all my fish would eat cockroaches, earthworms, crickets, algae, eggs and other foods like that. Prepared foods are a compromise we make for convenience.

So, cheers to pellets and wafers made of real food!