amazon biotope help

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amazon biotope help

Post by viciouswolf11 »

This is ta list of fish I want in it:
1 rainbow cichlid (I already have this fish and he is quite temperate)
1 male and 1 female Kribensis
2 males and 1 female Ancistrus
6-8 Corydoras (perhaps Oiapoquensis)
2 young tinfoil barbs ( I do know that I shall have to move them later)
9 glowlight tetras
9 hatchet fish

There will be a large number of plants and cover with breeding pots for the Kribensis and PVC pipes for the Ancistrus. :-b
Last edited by viciouswolf11 on 16 Jul 2011, 02:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: amazon biotope help

Post by MIKESHELEF »

There are a number of fish in your list that do not come from the Amazon.
It will not be biotope.

Kribensis comes from Africa.
tinfoil barbs come from Asia.
rainbow cichlid comes from Central America.

The other fish in your list come from South America.

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Re: amazon biotope help

Post by MatsP »

Biotope tanks are an almost impossible concept anyways, unless you can actually go catch your fish yourself. The fish caught for our hobby are almost all coming from different habitats, even if they originate from the same river. Most of the fish we put together in a tank "will never meet in nature" - what I mean by that, is that they aren't from the same little square meter of river. Some like to live in planted sections along the slower sections, others live in fast-flowing rock-riffles, others in the deeper sections in the middle of the river, etc. Bear in mind also that if it says that, say, Green Neon tetra comes has a distrubution of Orinoco or Negro, the fish don't actually live in Rio Orinoco or Rio Negro as such. In this particular case, they are from slow-flowing black-water rivers in (flooded) forest. The same principle of "naming the large river that the small drainages flow into" applies to many of the fish we find in the trade. Most of the smaller fish that are suitable to keep in an aquarium aren't "big river" fish. Obviously, the larger the fish, the bigger the body of water, as a general rule. Small fish may also live near the edges of large bodies of water.

Sure, you can find, if you really do know what you are looking for, some fish that are likely to "meet" (and not in the context of one being food and the other the feeder!). But it's hard work.

I prefer to look at it from a habitat/water chemistry point of view - what areas do the fish live in when they are found in the wild? Shallow, fast-flowing rocky rivers, slow-moving planted sections, drift-wood snags, or something like that... Then find fish that are happy to live in that habitat. Of course, you can have a bit of a mix, some rocky bits with good flow in one section, and a bit less movement and some plants on the other end of the tank, or some such. In this view, it's possible to keep fish from different geographical regions...

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Re: amazon biotope help

Post by MatsP »

If we're going to shoot holes in the Amazon biotope, I guess we should also point out that C. oiapoquensis comes from Oyapock which is not flowing into the Amazon at all. Glowlights originate from Essquibo river.

Hatchetfish are a group of 9 described species, about 4 or 5 come from the Amazon, the others are from other regions.

If it's the common bristlenose , we don't really know where that comes from...

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Re: amazon biotope help

Post by viciouswolf11 »

I did not know about the Kribensis and tinfoil barbs 'thanks' they will not be going in, But I did know about the rainbow and others, The reason I said Amazon biotope and not fish tank "bearing in mind I didn't know of the barb and Kribensis" Is because I did not want a random comment about all the fish coming from South America.

Truth is that I did not want them in there to begin with, I just needed to move as their current tank is over crowded with Angel and Ancistrus galore. Can you tell me of a small, easy to breed cichlid from south america (preferably Amazon) that is not so small it will make lunch for my rainbow, (I would breed the rainbows but there is no shop for miles where i have ever seen them)

PS: I'm not kidding, The place I bought my Rainbow was Penrith,England I live in Scotland.
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Re: amazon biotope help

Post by MatsP »

So, the title of your post is "Amazon biotope help", and then you list a number of fish not from the Amazon - in fact, the only fish that COULD BE (depending on what exact species you are areffereing) is the Hatchetfish and the Ancistrus. Well, and Corydoras may be from the Amazon, but not C. oiapoquensis.

You do not actually ask any question in your original post, just a number of statements.

Mike then points out that some of your fish aren't even from the same landmass/continent as your target biotope. I went on and explained that you can certainly keep fish from different regions together, as long as you understand what they need to be suitable to live together. And in a second post, pointed out that really, your fish are very little from the Amazon, as they South American ones that we can determine where they are from aren't from the Amazon.

[And I drive from Farnborough to Wigan a few times a year just to find the fish I want, which is about 60 miles further than Kirkcaldy to Penrith according to Google maps...]

Tropicalfishfinder seems to think there are stocks of Rainbowfish in quite a few shops:
http://www.tropicalfishfinder.co.uk/sho ... e=tropical
(Their search is pretty rubbish, so I had to actually find it in a roundabout way, but got there in the end).

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Re: amazon biotope help

Post by wrasse »

Hey Mr Vicious wolf /:)

You've had a bit of a bashing so far methinks. No worries.

If you want to go South American the choice is huge. Your task is for them all to live happily together. So far, I reckon the ancistrus, corys, glowlight and hatchets would be fine. Aim for neutral water conditions.

Your rainbow cichlid, as stated is from Central America. They are very adaptable but it would probably be okay if you want to include him. However, ask yourself is he big enough to make a meal of the glowlights?

I hope your tank is big enough for these cichlids you want... they are territorial after all.

The cichlids you might want to try are bolivian ram (microgeophagus altispinosa) or flag cichlids (laetacara curviceps).
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Re: amazon biotope help

Post by viciouswolf11 »

@MatsP

Being that i'm only 15 and am still in school, being that iv'e only known of these species for less than three years and being that I tend to study more than I look catfish. I'd say that i'm not doing to bad on the knowledge front. One more thing, I thought you were fairly knowledgeable before but now I realize you are just a sad act. I am not reading your comments any longer as I just want advice on compatibility. So just go away and leave me alone. Everyone else but you has been helpful and willing to give me deacent answers. I love fish to and that is why im making sure they'll be compatible, for there benefit. Be helpful and relax or leave me alone to get on.


I go to Wigan and Bolton once a year as well so think before you speak.
Last edited by viciouswolf11 on 15 Jul 2011, 17:23, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: amazon biotope help

Post by viciouswolf11 »

thank you wrasse, ill admit you sound slightly patronizing (but in a funny way) Thanks for giving me a helpful answer, BTW the rainbow is still young and doesn't seem to have that big a mouth on him

PS: were the Cichlids you listed at the bottom referring to my "easy to breed" request

Thanks.
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Re: amazon biotope help

Post by N0body Of The Goat »

Perhaps this stocking is worth looking at from another perspective, as in give us a list of the fish (size and numbers in any groups) that you already have for this tank and then other members can suggest suitable tankmates? I could be wrong, but I get the impression that your "must have fish" that is going in the tank is a single Rainbow Cichlid.

What size is the new tank?
What are the "vitals" of your planned water (tap, reverse osmosis, or a mix) i.e. pH; kH; gH?

On a sidenote, it sounds as if you have a Bristlenose Catfish breeding farm that is getting out of control, lots of youngsters but nobody local wants to buy them. It might be worth considering seperating the parents into different tanks to stop future fry, or coming to some sort of arrangement with your LFS to take the fry off your hands regularly, even if it is free. Without some sort of change, you are heading for a wipeout of the tank containing them, as eventually the filtration will not be able to deal with the ammonia and nitrite.
Dreaming of a full-on 5x2x2 Zaire River rapids biotope...
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Re: amazon biotope help

Post by viciouswolf11 »

You are correct on the rainbow front, However your Ancistrus guess is exactly the opposite. I am wanting to breed the Ancistrus. One of the males are albino as to give a 50/50 chance having a third albino fry.

My aquarium is a 90cm*30cm*45cm Tropiquarium 88 and so uses the filtration and heating system built into the hood. I have an extra filter as well "A large Fluval" ,just in case I need some extra cleaning power, remember that my Tinfoils are no longer going in so there is enough room for the fish and if there seems to be to much for the tanks space then I will lower the number of tetras and hatchets to 6 or 7.

PH - 5.6 to 5.8
Temp - 26c to 29c
filter - low to medium
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Re: amazon biotope help

Post by racoll »

viciouswolf11, your initial post was confusing and left people guessing what information you needed. On this forum, it is a good idea to be really clear up front with your question. It read as though you wanted to know if all these fish were from an "Amazon biotope", and as it has been pointed out, very few of them are from the Amazon.

You just wanted to know about compatibility, so are my thoughts:

I have never kept the rainbow cichlid Herotilapia multispinosa, but most Central American species require quite hard alkaline water. Your water sounds very soft and acidic, so not ideal for these fish. It might also be better to keep these in a group.

In light of this, I would either set up a species tank and get several more rainbow cichlids, but making sure you also buffer the water and increase the pH/hardness; OR I would relocate the rainbow cichlid and replace it with a small group or pair of peaceful cichlids such as the keyhole cichlid Cleithracara maronii, dwarf flag cichlid Laetacara curviceps or kribensis Pelvicachromis pulcher. All these are available and easy to breed.

I would not go for more than one cichlid species in this tank though, but the tetras, hatchets and a warm water such as , would work with all of these too.

Hope this helps.
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Re: amazon biotope help

Post by viciouswolf11 »

As I mentioned before I already have the rainbow which is in the same water as it will be soon which is acidic, however he is captive bred and has been in one of my tanks for exactly one year in September.

And he's still a happy Cichlid :d .
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Re: amazon biotope help

Post by wrasse »

VW, you are getting some very good advice on here.
Your water is loved by the most acidophilic species. A PH below 6 is what fish keepers aim for if they want to try breeding cardinal tetras or wild discus or altum angels...
If you adjust your water to a neutral 7 all the fish you want to keep will be happy.
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Re: amazon biotope help

Post by sidguppy »

if the Rainbow Cichlid is Herotilapia (Archocentrus, Cryptoheros) multispinosa; you must get rid of it if you plan to acidify the water

this is a species that hauls from hard, neutral to alkaline water in central America
it will not thrive in acidic water at all

the fact that it's still not ill only testifies that it's a tough fish

however; "getting away with it" is not the same as "trying to find what's best for your fish".
not at all.

being 15 is not an excuse in my book; I started at 9 years old and internet didn't exist back then

now it's so much easier.......a simple example:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/h ... pinosa.php first hit at google on "rainbow cichlid" , not even using the scientific name

first hit on "tinfoil barb".....
http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/barbs/tinfoilbarb.php

first google hit on "kribensis"
http://badmanstropicalfish.com/profiles/profile19.html

I don't think you did any research whatsoever......nothing

that can be excused when you're 10, but not at 15
the only people 15 years old that don't know how to operate a computer probably live in third world countries and very poor ones at that.
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Re: amazon biotope help

Post by Bas Pels »

@ Herotilapia

They have a rather special way of breeding - they let themselves be trapped in little ponds qwhen the water drops. there no predators are around, and being mostly vegetarian, the low waterlevel will help growing a lot of food.

However such ponds tend to dry out - in this case I should say concentrate the water. During the dry season, the pond may shrink to less than 10 % of its original size - increasing the hardness by a factor 10 from DH 20 to DH 200.

Water quality will detoriate, just as amount of oxygen. Surviving fishes, therefore need to be quite hardy, but they do not need to worry about getting enough calcium into their bodies

This is, therefore, among the cichlids most adapted to HARD water. Scotland is well known for its soft water, and therefore Herotipapia should in Scotland only be kept in a tank with lost of limestone. Limestone which you, obviously, will not put into the tank.

The problem is, Herotilapia, when grown (10 cm or 4 iches or more) develop a very beautifull yellow color, which I can not say any south American cichlid has.

But, unfortunately, they can not have your water, so you should not keep this species in this combination
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Re: amazon biotope help

Post by viciouswolf11 »

I will not repeat that the fish is fine as it is thriving but if will keep you happy i will keep the water neutral, but remember that most of my other tanks are acidic as I do keep many Amazonian and acidic fish like the Ancistrus and my Severum.

Now can you please tell me the temperament compatibility between the rainbow and other fish
Especially the Kribensis as I am going to try to add a similar sized fish.
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Re: amazon biotope help

Post by Jools »

@VW

I remember discussing with you your Rainbow Cichlid when when met after I gave a talk to the Kirkcaldy Aquarist Society last year - glad to hear it is still going well. While it's been pointed out that you could have found out where all the fishes come from before posting, you didn't and I think we (we in the sense of the more experienced members here) could have responded better in some instances.

But I do really agree with sidguppy on the point that you might have done some research before posting. It was not clear at all what the purpose of your post was. Perhaps before launching into responses we should have asked you to clarify what it was you were asking. It seemed to me like you were asking about putting a bunch of different fish into what would otherwise be an amazon biotope - that didn't really make sense.

OK, so can I draw a line under everything above and go back to the original post.

What's the question and how can we help?

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Re: amazon biotope help

Post by viciouswolf11 »

After all that has happened I guess the only question left is will my rainbow be temperate with the new tetras, hatchets and dwarf Cichlids (Maybe flag) although I am reconsidering the kribs as it is no longer able to be a biotope, and for the case of there happiness I will put in panda, sterbai or oiapoquensis as they do fairly well in what I will make neutral water and look nice without being bothersome to other fish "through past experience at least". Things have changed a 'lot now and as I said before being that I thought they were all American 'Amazon biotope' was the only term I could think of so I didn't get random comments of "You do know that all your fish are american" seemed to cause more bad than good among some of the more... emotionally open, members of the sight. Anyway can you please answer my question, Will the above be compatible with each other in
temperament terms.

PS: I cant believe that I missed such an obvious fish' origin (Kribensis)
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Re: amazon biotope help

Post by Jools »

viciouswolf11 wrote:After all that has happened I guess the only question left is will my rainbow be temperate with the new tetras, hatchets and dwarf Cichlids (Maybe flag) although I am reconsidering the kribs as it is no longer able to be a biotope
OK, so I've not kept Rainbow Cichlids, so I'm not going to generalise. What I would say is there are some for sale at Aquascene in Airdrie. Maybe give 'em a call?

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Re: amazon biotope help

Post by viciouswolf11 »

I might get another as I know they enjoy a little company and are naturally forced to swim with each other during the dry season, and as my tank will have much cover. As I said before though I want to breed a pair of Cichlid's and rainbows are more difficult than other fish as I have never bred Cichlid's before, funny as I have bred live bearers, anabantoids and catfish.
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Re: amazon biotope help

Post by racoll »

although I am reconsidering the kribs as it is no longer able to be a biotope
Without wishing to flog a dead horse, I would drop the whole biotope idea. It's just causing confusion. The kribs are perfect tankmates for the South American tetras and corys etc, despite coming from Africa. This is because they come from really similar habitats in the wild (shady softwater streams). Just because the rainbow cichlids come from the same continent doesn't mean they are are automatically suitable to kept with anything else from that continent, as they live in really different habitats, in terms of both water chemistry and other fishes.
the only question left is will my rainbow be temperate with the new tetras, hatchets and dwarf Cichlids (Maybe flag)
My opinion is that this tank is too small for more than one species of cichlid. Probably not you want to hear, but you will always have fewer problems if you take fewer risks.

You are very lucky in Scotland to have such good quality soft water, perfect for so many South American, African and Asian fishes. To me it seems crazy to want to make it go alkaline, but adding a pH buffering substance such as coral sand or crushed shells to the filter would be a very good idea if you want to keep the rainbow cichlid.

Keeping a single rainbow cichlid on its own with some other assorted fishes, certainly isn't ideal if you ask me, and the tank will most likely be overstocked with a group of these, plus the others. If you are dead set on keeping these rainbow cichlids, I would keep a small group (e.g. 5) in a species tank and let them pair off and breed. They will show more natural behaviour if kept like this. You also want to think about what you are going to do the offspring if you get a spawn. Do you have grow-out tanks, and will the local shops take them?

Hope this helps.
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Re: amazon biotope help

Post by viciouswolf11 »

of course I have growout tanks, I have told you that for a thriving rainbow the water must be alkaline, and yes I am very happy with the soft water quality but the crazy thing to do would be to leave my rainbow in its very unhelpful acidic soft water. Thanks for the Krib front though, I am thnking of moving him to his own slow moving tank as it may be better for him. Who knows, maybe I will get him a mate"I do not" have a big enough tank for a whole school of them so stop mentioning this.
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Re: amazon biotope help

Post by wrasse »

=))

VW, you are 'communicating' soooo nicely, we are all waiting to meet you at the next catfish convention... we will be queueing to give you some advice in person
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Re: amazon biotope help

Post by viciouswolf11 »

Not sure Ill be there but Ill read up on dates and might drop i this year, would be a good chance to catch up with Jools, sounds a little exciting. :-!
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Re: amazon biotope help

Post by apistomaster »

I had a fish shop back when the first Rainbow Cichlids were introduced to the hobby (circa 1968) and only wild caught specimens were available at that time. Of course, because they are so easy to breed, it wasn't long before they became common. I was your age when my parents helped me open up my fish shop in 1967. Two years later I was breeding wild Discus.
I haven't kept Rainbow Cichlids since circa 1970 but they remain my favorite of the Central American Cichlids. They are always perfect parents and they are uncommonly peaceful fish for a medium size Cichlid. They show amazing and very pretty changes in color as they mature and begin breeding. They are so peaceful that it is actually a close call as to whether they would bother Glow Light Tetras. I suspect that since your fish is tank bred that you would have no problem keeping and breeding them in your water despite the fact it is different from their original habitat.
They are a lot of fun to keep and breed so if you can get a few more or at least one of the opposite sex I can't think of a better Cichlid to be the first species you breed.
I also agree with my comrades that it would be best for you to choose only one Cichlid species for this one tank.
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Re: amazon biotope help

Post by Bas Pels »

kribensis is much nastyer than Herotilapia.

That is, a healthy kribensis compared to a healthy Herotilapia

However, your water will prevent the Herotilapia from developing as it is supposed to do, and therefore it will not be any threat to your precious tetras
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Re: amazon biotope help

Post by viciouswolf11 »

Easier than I thought. Fine, if I can find him a mate then I'll get him one and read up on breeding.
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Re: amazon biotope help

Post by Blackhawker »

I've kept a Rainbow Cichlid with tetras and with other cichlids.....and mine was completely peaceful and easy going. But I know all fish and aquariums are different, so I would exercise caution as usual...
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Re: amazon biotope help

Post by apistomaster »

I was slow to realize you had essentially two parallel threads regarding your one tank.
You already know what suggestions I have made in both.

I just want to speak to the issue of recommended water chemistry vs to what degree many fish can adapt to different water conditions. In every subgroup of fish hobbyists some will be more rigid about keeping fish in water which is as close to their origins. But the facts are that many fish have been so domesticated through decades of commercial breeding that their ability to adapt to different water conditions has greatly expanded. In other instances, even some wild imported fish have more ability to adapt to different water chemistry than where they were caught. So all that can be said is what is generally considered to be ideal for species but some fish can adapt to a broader range of water chemistry and some can not. For example, no one would argue with the premise that wild Discus should be kept in very soft and moderately acid water. Despite this, I have bred and raised hundreds of fry from wild pairs of Symphysodon haraldi(Blue/Brown Discus) in water with a pH of 7.5 and dGH of 15*. But this would be virtually impossible to do with Symphysodon aequifasciata(Green Discus).
So there are exceptions to almost all general rules or guidelines but there are also cases where there is little "wiggle room".
The best thing to do is to choose fishes which naturally evolved to thrive in water that is most similar to what kind of water you have available to you. You seem to be blessed with ideal water for the vast majority of South American fish. Water that the majority of us who prefer these fish have to reconstruct by using reverse osmosis devices to produce pure water which we can then adjust to match what is considered ideal for our South American fishes. This is usually most important when we are trying to breed these fishes. A large number of the most popular species have been bred commercially in vast numbers for decades and over time they have become less demanding of the ideal water chemistry to just live and thrive in community aquariums but most will still require more similar water to their original environment in order to breed well with only a few exceptions.
Avid Trout fly fisherman. ·´¯`·...¸><)))º>
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