What kind of Hypancistrus? L173 fry update

[johannes]

I see L173 to be Hypancistrus looking like zebra pleco but bigger, with distinct wavy lines, golden eyes and seldom with spottings. With all due respect, i am afraid to say that the fry that you posted do not look like L173 at all in any aspect. What you posted are Hypancistrus with rather stout (not elongated) with spottings all over the body. That being said if you still claim that they are L173, like I mentioned earlier, could be the product of hybridization, namely L400 with H. Lower xingu?

Anyway, as of what you posted 2 years ago, in your 1st post, the 1st 2 fishes are L400 and the 3rd fish is H. Lower xingu as what other members pointed out and I kinda agree with their opinion.

You can claim all you want but pictures don't lie.

[Unungy]

I see L173 to be Hypancistrus looking like zebra pleco but bigger, with distinct wavy lines, golden eyes and seldom with spottings

.

L173 according to many experts should not look like a zebra. I am definitively not an expert but I've seen a few of these called L173 through the past years.
How about the L173b from Glaser? that does't look like a zebra at all? It does look like a totally different specie all together. No to mention their fry that are very off and produce variant patterns..

I am afraid to say that the fry that you posted do not look like L173 at all in any aspect. What you posted are Hypancistrus with rather stout (not elongated) with spottings all over the body. That being said if you still claim that they are L173, like I mentioned earlier, could be the product of hybridization, namely L400 with H. Lower xingu?

This statement from Janne back in 2009 and I do agree with it - He actually lives in Brazil and has seen many many many of these different species at first hand..

"Some details that not many people know is: Hypancistrus sp "lower xingu" i not one species, from these all collected at the same localities is L173, L399-L400, H. sp "lower xingu" (the rest that not looks like the other) is sorted and shipped as separate L-number, not today but before when it was still illegal but no control. All of them from Belo Monte, from Porto de Moz where some of the L333 is collected are no other Hypancistrus species collected even if it's not impossible to find other species but only L333 was collected near Porto de Moz. And I will not even mention how many thousands I have seen"
Janne

You can claim all you want but pictures don't lie.

All the pictures I've seen of L173 fry - resemble young L46 with wavy or broken lines. If this is true then L173 is a variant of L46 which could contradict with what many experts have discussed for the last couple of years.

I have attached a few pictures of a wavy - broken line L46 from my collection, are these L173 according to your expertise?

[Unungy]

L46 - L173?

[Unungy]

L173?

[nvcichlids]

beautiful fish bud! I wish I could afford some of these..

[pleco22]

Hi,
sorry to say but this thread is typical for a really bad situation. First: The status of L 173 is not clear. When the DATZ introduced L 173 ist was like ever. A single picture, with no catching location and a really bad description. Sorry to say, but all the mess starts with the L-Number 173.

Problem is:

1rst: Similarity in pattern
Breeders of Hypancistrus zebra knows, that sometimes irregular patterns occurs, sometimes they only stay for a while and disappear after some month. Sometimes this kind of wavy lines occurs after heavy injuries. If you bread this fish, the offspring will look like normal H. zebra. This wavy pattern of H. zebra also occurs rarely in nature. So 1 out of 1000 imported H. zebra shows this pattern.

There is also another form with nearly the same pattern, very rare to the market and in my opinion some kind of a natural transition form. Perhaps between L 333 and H. zebra. This kind grows faster and bigger than H. zebra. The offspring of this variant shows wavy lines, but also some kind of wormlines.

If you breed Xingu Hypancistrus on a regularly base you will find this pattern from time to time in nearly all variants. But most of them will change the pattern when growing adult.

So the situation is nearly ideal for Hybrids. And this is the case in this thread. The first pictures show a mix out of one typical L 173-type with some typical L 400-type. So the offspring are just hybrids, and believe me or not: They look not even that nice like the Hybrids between H. zebra and L 400, wich are often sold as L 173. As you could see. The lines are mostly interupted, wich is not the case for L 173, but very common to L 400.

To avoid this kind of Hybrids just follow the rules:
- only buy from one import (date, dealer)
- avoid buying untypical marked ones
- avoid untypical body and fin shapes
- take the average marked fish and build a breading group
- never mix single fish from different breeders or imports

If you do this, you help the community to keep the variants of Hypancistrus clear. Sorry to say, but all of the breedings groups of L 173 in Germany are not build upon this rules. Most of them are the result of combining single fish from different imports. Because it's just impossible to import a batch of 50 L 173. So the danger of Hybrids is also clearly given.

I think the offspring should be sold as L173/L400 Hybrids. They are nice, but they could be dangerous for both variants, if they are again mixed with other groups. Please don't get me wrong here. I have no problems breeding Hybrids. But I dislike selling them as wrong or new L-numbers.

The following pictures shows adult L 173 from Germany:





Both are from different breeders.

[Janne]

The last 2 pictures show in the first pic L173 and the second pic H. zebra or maybe a hybrid between L173 and H. zebra? In any case, these are not the same species.

Janne

[pleco22]

Hi,
that is the problem: Perhaps they are both L 173 - or hybrids between different variants with wavy lines. No one knows for sure. But mixing both types of L 173 with each other will again rise the risk of hybrids. That what I say. Keep the lines clear. Don't use exceptional looking fish for breeding groups.

In this case: The parent groups of these fish are claimed as the only "real" L 173 in Germany. Both groups imported years ago by a famous importer. The second type is spread all over the world. I also see a little bit of H. zebra in it, but what does that matters? The chance, that L 173 is a transition variant between H. zebra and other forms of Xingu variant is very high. So who is right? And what is L 173?

I have two breeding groups of both types, really stunning fish. I will never mix them.

[jac]

Great Video but I see L46 wavy youngsters, L173 is not an L46 nor does look like one.

Would you post pictures of their parents? are they L46 wavy?

These fish are from the most respected breeder of L173, http://www.L173.de. So no doubt it is L173.
And yes, I agree they look notting like zebra's. I'm seeing them grow up and notice a lot of differences.

[Unungy]

Great Video but I see L46 wavy youngsters, L173 is not an L46 nor does look like one.

Would you post pictures of their parents? are they L46 wavy?

These fish are from the most respected breeder of L173, http://www.L173.de. So no doubt it is L173.
And yes, I agree they look notting like zebra's. I'm seeing them grow up and notice a lot of differences.

Differences? what dots and lines? and a zebra body. If that is what it is then yes L173 should be any zebra with broken lines and wavy body and unspectacular pattern.
If that is what makes the L173 specie then yes I have quiet a few in my collection that fit that description.
On the other hand I believe the site has some amazing plecos but we are still unsure of what they are. What exactly are they? It could also be hybrids that were crossed by experts breeders in Germany as we don't know how those "Zebras - L173 came about" a lab creation.

[Unungy]

Hi,
sorry to say but this thread is typical for a really bad situation. First: The status of L 173 is not clear. When the DATZ introduced L 173 ist was like ever. A single picture, with no catching location and a really bad description. Sorry to say, but all the mess starts with the L-Number 173.

I think is a good thread cause we learn more every time about the L173 and how this cross came about... .it doesn't happen in nature as often as it happens in Germany and other countries? why? we don't know.

There is also another form with nearly the same pattern, very rare to the market and in my opinion some kind of a natural transition form. Perhaps between L 333 and H. zebra. This kind grows faster and bigger than H. zebra. The offspring of this variant shows wavy lines, but also some kind of wormlines.

Like some of those in the L173.de site? grow bigger - irregular patterns - wormlines

If you breed Xingu Hypancistrus on a regularly base you will find this pattern from time to time in nearly all variants. But most of them will change the pattern when growing adult.
So the situation is nearly ideal for Hybrids. And this is the case in this thread. The first pictures show a mix out of one typical L 173-type with some typical L 400-type. So the offspring are just hybrids, and believe me or not: They look not even that nice like the Hybrids between H. zebra and L 400, wich are often sold as L 173. As you could see. The lines are mostly interupted, wich is not the case for L 173, but very common to L 400.

There are two different group of fish we are talking about:

- First two pictures were ID, kept and bred as L400. This group went to a different breeder.
- Second picture male and two females were ID by some as L173 a trio was kept and bred in the USA. We are not talking about the first group of pictures, crossed with the last picture (L173 as described) so lets get that out of the way and move forward.


To avoid this kind of Hybrids just follow the rules:
- only buy from one import (date, dealer)
- avoid buying untypical marked ones
- avoid untypical body and fin shapes
- take the average marked fish and build a breading group
- never mix single fish from different breeders or imports

This is very good advise but doesn't apply on this tread, but the advise is appreciated as I do not mix shipments or fish from same or other collection point.

Sorry to say, but all of the breedings groups of L 173 in Germany are not build upon this rules. Most of them are the result of combining single fish from different imports. Because it's just impossible to import a batch of 50 L 173. So the danger of Hybrids is also clearly given.

will this explain why http://www.L173.de. has so many different variations of L173?, they all look different to me.

I think the offspring should be sold as L173/L400 Hybrids. They are nice, but they could be dangerous for both variants, if they are again mixed with other groups. Please don't get me wrong here. I have no problems breeding Hybrids. But I dislike selling them as wrong or new L-numbers.

This does not apply to the trio as "whatever they are, were kept and bred together. The breeder was fortunate enough to have one male two females.

The following pictures shows adult L 173 from Germany:

This does look like a zebra to me, with broken lines and dots, this could be the typical result of H zebra with another hypan or perhaps "the mimic" now that we know their existance.

Both are from different breeders.

I can see some nice L400 variant mixed with a "zebra"

I mean to disrespect to anybody and I admire all breeders in Germany for such amazing history of accomplishments but I do believe that somewhere alone the line someone decided to experiment with some kind of hybridization resulting in such amazing hypancistrus.

[har_eh]

Great Video but I see L46 wavy youngsters, L173 is not an L46 nor does look like one.
Would you post pictures of their parents? are they L46 wavy?

Dan recently posted pics of his l173 acquired from l173.de.
There are more differences then just wavy lines, look at the eyes and the tale for example.

Dan's pic:

[Borbi]

Hi,

I promised to myself to not have me dragged into this neverending story, so I´ll make it short:

These fish are from the most respected breeder of L173, http://www.L173.de. So no doubt it is L173.[...]

This is by no means the prevailing opinion regarding these fishes amongst most German pleco fanatics.

`nough said!

Cheers, Sandor

[har_eh]

Hi,

I promised to myself to not have me dragged into this neverending story, so I´ll make it short:

These fish are from the most respected breeder of L173, http://www.L173.de. So no doubt it is L173.[...]

This is by no means the prevailing opinion regarding these fishes amongst most German pleco fanatics.

`nough said!

Cheers, Sandor

Please elaborate?

[Acanthicus]

This is by no means....

Like almost everything concerning this and some other L-numbers (due to their right identification), said here and elsewhere.

[Borbi]

Hi,

Please elaborate?

..well.. As I said: I do not want to do that, because it frequently just results in waste of time.
To rephrase my statement above:
Most Germans considered to be knowledgable about plecos do not take these fishes to be L173.

And that´s about all you´re gonna hear from me about this topic.

Cheers, Sandor

[Unungy]

Hi,

I promised to myself to not have me dragged into this neverending story, so I´ll make it short:

These fish are from the most respected breeder of L173, http://www.L173.de. So no doubt it is L173.[...]

This is by no means the prevailing opinion regarding these fishes amongst most German pleco fanatics.

`nough said!

Cheers, Sandor

Sandor.

The picture
It is a "hot" topic for some of us but I find it fascinating if we can keep it civil.
Now looking at the picture you have posted. I see an amazing Hypancistrus, now we all know that when taking pictures the background - camera effects and even the rock can be a good contributor. I am not saying that is the case here but certainly something to keep in mind. I take a lot of pictures and they are very simple if you ask me but I've noticed the color of the container, lighting may have a big influence in the end picture.

Beautiful hypancistrus
I see a very young hypancistrus still changing maybe 4 cm or so, I see a dot or two on the tile that doesn't have a define form as yet.
Just like we see the L66 fry when when going through different stages until maturity.

In conclusion the fry will look just the parents shown in the respectable http://www.L173.en.






Please note: copyright pictures of reputable http://www.L173.en site, used for comparison, learning none business related.

I've gone through a few of those pictures and found zebra eyes in some of them.
It could also be a bad indication of an ID.

[jac]

Wel, that just helps a bunch does it
Making such a strong comment and then not wanting to say anything about it

I give up

[jac]

Saul, it's not all about the markings or coloration. The fish itself has a different bodyshape and headshape.

[apistomaster]

Just my opinion but I have always considered L173 to be just a color variant of H. zebra and not a natural or cultured hybrid.

[Unungy]

Saul, it's not all about the markings or coloration. The fish itself has a different bodyshape and headshape.

Yes Jac - That I can see..
The head seems to be different on the adults, a more flat rounded head.

[Borbi]

Hi,

@Saul:
My comment is strictly restricted to the presumably undoubtful nature of the fishes offered by the breeder of L173.de and has nothing to do with any pictures.

@Jac:
I did not even state that I share this opinion (and neither does this mean that I don´t).
You can have my personal view and some insight where it came from, but only in a face to face discussion, not written on the Internet.

Cheers, Sandor

[apistomaster]

A library of mtDNA samples needs to be compiled for the genus Hypancistrus before we are going to be able to begin sorting out the relationships among the various species in the genus. At least this could be done even if the various types/species aren't yet formally described.

[Unungy]

My comment is strictly restricted to the presumably undoubtful nature of the fishes offered by the breeder of L173.de and has nothing to do with any pictures.

no problem Sandor point taken.

"sigh" We are not trying to discredit anyone, http://www.L173.de has some of the most amazing plecos in the hobby.

[pleco22]

Hi,

It is unprovable that someone breed the "real" L 173, because even the status of the first picture is unclear. Don't throw bricks when you live in a glass house. Unfortunately many of the breeders I know doesn't understand this and blame each other for producing hybrids.

So please don't get into this. Try to share information, pictures and observations instead of starting rumors and suspicions.


This is an adult male from L 173.de. Hybrid or not. You could crossbreed l 400 and H. zebra for a while, but you will never get such a fish. And please remember, this specimen is around 120mm TL.

@ saul: so I am a little bit confused. What are the parents of the offspring? Your first post shows different types of fish, so I thought, that these are the base of the breeding group. Please help!

[Unungy]

Interesting adult, nice looking specimen never the less.
how big is it?

Please see picture attached of a nice L400 variant found in 2009.

@ saul: so I am a little bit confused. What are the parents of the offspring? Your first post shows different types of fish, so I thought, that these are the base of the breeding group. Please help!

Sorry for the confusion. I should have created different threads back in 2009.
The first group was ID as L400 and they have been kept and bred as such by a different breeder.

See pics attached - this is the fish in question.

[apistomaster]

That the nice pleco pictured above by pleco22 reached 12 cm makes me reconsider my belief that L173 are only
H. zebra variants. I have never seen any H.zebra specimens close to being 12 cm TL.

[Erlend D Bertelsen]

My personal opinion is that a L-173 should look like this. The pictured fish is a wild caught fish from the Xingu.

There are so many hybrids around in the trade.


E

[pleco22]

Hi,

nice specimen, indeed. So get a female and breed them. And you will see that the offspring won't look like this fish. The marking is a doubtful characteristic.

The DATZ 7/2009 shows the complete offspring of one pair of the "real" L 173. Problem is: You will find a picture of the male, but you won't find a picture of the female. So again: No one knows, what this highly different offspring means.

I habe seen nice breeding pairs of wildcaught L 173. Both male and female are beautiful and looks very similar. Everything is fine. Fins, body shape and the size of the fish. But the offspring is a mess. You will find even fish with a yellow body colour.

Usually the mixture of body colour between the offspring is a sign for hybrids, but in this case it could also mean that L 173 is a natural hybrid or a very young species - whatever - you have to dive to find out.

regards

[Unungy]

I habe seen nice breeding pairs of wildcaught L 173. Both male and female are beautiful and looks very similar. Everything is fine. Fins, body shape and the size of the fish. But the offspring is a mess. You will find even fish with a yellow body colour.

Usually the mixture of body colour between the offspring is a sign for hybrids, but in this case it could also mean that L 173 is a natural hybrid or a very young species - whatever - you have to dive to find out.

This in deed is quite "statement" and I have tendency to agree after 3 years of search.