Baryancistrus demantoides or hemiancistrus subviridis?

[bigamefish]

Hey everybody! I was just wondering if there are any advantages/disadvantages to keeping either species and which one is more or less difficult to keep. also would the B.demantoides get along with a L-128 ok?

[MatsP]

I would DEFINITELY not keep H. subviridis with L128, as they may well cross-breed.

The Baryancistrus demantoides is quite a lot less common. Not sure if it's harder to keep.

--
Mats

[jvision]

I've got to say that I love all the warnings about keeping similar species together due to possible hybridization, like these fish breed like peacock cichlids.
Mats, if this is the case in your tanks, I'm crossing the pond!

[bigamefish]

haha thats kinda funny! my peacocks just spawned! and looks like i`ll be going with a nice almost adult baryancistrus demantoides! its 5 inches and the cat-eLog says it grows to 5.9 inches would a 5 inch fish be consitered an adult? and its $40.00 is that a good price?

[MatsP]

I've got to say that I love all the warnings about keeping similar species together due to possible hybridization, like these fish breed like peacock cichlids.
Mats, if this is the case in your tanks, I'm crossing the pond!

So _IF_ your L128 and L200 do breed, what are you going to do? Cull the fry? (Hint: Cull would indeed the be the right answer!)

I'm sorry, but I'm ALWAYS going to recommend keeping different species of the same genus in separate tanks, whether they have never been bred, bred once or bred thousands of times. The last thing we need is more hybrids. There are recorded cross breedings in just about every genus of Loricariidae that has ever been bred more than a couple of times (of the top of my head, Ancistrus, Hypancistrus, Leporacanthicus and Sturisoma - I'm pretty sure there are a few others too). Just because they happen to be hard to breed is not a good excuse in my mind - the reason (in most cases) that they are hard to breed is simply that we don't KNOW what makes them breed [unless you know of another reason they don't breed often]. So, if for some reason, you, or someone else, happens to, trigger a spawn between L200 and L128, then you have hybrid fry.

It's not very difficult to avoid this, and in the process, increase the chances of breeding these fish:
Keep more of the one species, rather than trying to "collect one of each". As a bonus, they will act in a different way than if you have single specimens.

By the way, I'm pretty sure one reason that these fish aren't bred more often is that so many people buy a single one. Very difficult to breed with only one fish.

And may I ask why you (apparently) think it's WRONG to recommend not keeping potentially hybridizing fish in the same tank?

--
Mats

[jvision]

Mats, I meant no disrespect at all; and, I completely agree that culling hybrids is a MUST! I just found it amusing b/c I've been working with a group of L128 for several months without success.

I truly appreciate all that you do for this forum, and the fantastic advice that you offer.

[MatsP]

Oh, I see what you mean. Completely misunderstood what you were trying to say, it seems.

I had a group for quite some time, and they didn't breed for me either. Of course, it didnt' help much that my "trio" turned out to be all male... I then got a definite female and removed two males. Unfortunately, not long after, I was "booted out" by my (now ex-)wife and ended up losing a lot of my fish [as in they were given away (or sold?) rather than allowing me to pick them up], so I lost those two, along with several other fish.

--
Mats

[Shane]

I would DEFINITELY not keep H. subviridis with L128, as they may well cross-breed.

In this case we are talking about two described spp that live side by side in nature. If they are distinct spp then there should be evolutionary barriers that prevent hybridization.
-Shane

[MatsP]

I would DEFINITELY not keep H. subviridis with L128, as they may well cross-breed.

In this case we are talking about two described spp that live side by side in nature. If they are distinct spp then there should be evolutionary barriers that prevent hybridization.
-Shane

First of all L128 are not a described species [afaik], but are you sure it's not physical barriers rather than genetic ones?

Assuming we decide that L128 and H. subvirids are the same species, just different colour forms [after all, they look very similar, aside from colour], does that mean we should mix them?

--
Mats

[Richard B]

Some species need to be worked with for years rather than months, as seasonal influences,like atmospheric pressure for example, cannot be replicated and only the correct time of year gives us this. Larry (Apistomaster) has cited many times that his

Peckoltia compta

spawn seasonally in a 'window of time' which has been echoed by other keepers, although time windows vary, dependant upon where in the world people and their fish are located.

Personally groups of fish of the same species has got to be the way forward - look at the success of people like Harvaard Stoere. (apologies if spelling is wrong)

[Shane]

First of all L128 are not a described species [afaik], but are you sure it's not physical barriers rather than genetic ones?

Assuming we decide that L128 and H. subvirids are the same species, just different colour forms [after all, they look very similar, aside from colour], does that mean we should mix them?

Mats,
L numbers are not species. There is only one described spotted, greenish black Hemiancistrus sp from the Orinoco and that is

Hemiancistrus subviridis

. So, from a scientific point of view, everything that falls within the metrics of the original description is

Hemiancistrus subviridis

. The L Numbers 128 and 200 are simply handy ways for hobbyists to distinguish two, of the half dozen or so, regional variations. They have no scientific meaning nor is there any scientific evidence for seperating the two groups. Having mixed the two spp myself (B. demantoides and H. subviridis) several times, I can assure you that from a captive maintenance angle, there is absolutely no reason to separate them since thet require the exact same water parameters. In fact, from a biotopically correct stand point it makes perfect sense to mix them.
I think what we really disagree on though is your belief (and constant advice in the forum) that the possibility of hybridization should be a source of constant concern for hobbyists that want to mix loricariids in the same aquarium. There are very few instances where this is a legitimate concern, and they appear to be maninly limited to Hypancistrus. It is hardly the case that people are spawning L Numbers like convict cichlids and that we are constantly hearing of new cases of hybridization between genera.
-Shane

[MatsP]

So, what you are saying is that the blue form of L128 (which, as far as I'm aware, is NOT covered by the description that we have so far) and the green form that is scientifically described as Hemiancistrus subviridis ARE the same species, and there is no reason to keep them separated other than shops trying to make a buck or five by selling the blue ones for a different price?

In case it's some sort of misunderstanding, I am saying L128 and H. subviridis should not be mixed - it's fine to mix Baryancistrus with Hemiancsitrus.

I guess it comes down to "lumper or splitter", and I guess I'm a splitter in this particular case.

--
Mats

[kev]

What would be the big problem anyway?? To start with like has been said there is a very small chance that would happen as they seem to be hard to breed, and even if someone did manage to do it it's not like they are going to take the young and put them back in the wild is there?

I get what you are saying about hybrids Mats but ray keepers have been doing this for years now with no problems.

Kev

[MatsP]

What would be the big problem anyway?? To start with like has been said there is a very small chance that would happen as they seem to be hard to breed, and even if someone did manage to do it it's not like they are going to take the young and put them back in the wild is there?

I get what you are saying about hybrids Mats but ray keepers have been doing this for years now with no problems.

I'm sorry if I don't agree with that, and this makes me unpopular. But I _DO NOT_ like hybrids. There is a possibility of creating hybrids by keeping different species of the same genus in the same tank. There is no need to do this...

Edit: And even if it's NOT technically leading to hybrids, because the blue L128 and the green L200 is actually considered the same species, I don't really see how the Bleen or Grue form of the fish will look particularly good.

Edit2:

Color in life. Adults with light golden-olive ground color on body and fins. Head, anterior sides and skin covering dorsal-fin base with distinct round golden-yellow spots. Spots usually confined to portion of sides anterior to last dorsal-fin ray, but sometimes continuing on dorsolateral plates to below adipose fin or slightly beyond. Spots largest and more remotely spaced on anterior body below dorsal fin, becoming gradually smaller and more closely spaced towards and onto snout. Dorsal fin with distinct golden-yellow spots largely confined to basal two-thirds of spine and rays (lacking from membranes and distal portions of spine and rays). Pectoral fin with smaller golden-yellow spots largely confined to basal one-half to basal three-quarters of rays.

This clearly states that the fish is Golden-Olive ground colour. I don't think that anyone would agree that even the greener of the

L128

is "Golden-Olive".
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script= ... so&tlng=en

--
Mats

[racoll]

even if someone did manage to do it it's not like they are going to take the young and put them back in the wild is there?

That's not the problem. It's when the offspring are passed on to other hobbyists, and the true breeding lines are lost. Hybrids have very little value, and can make it hard for real fish enthusiasts to get hold of high quality livestock.

That said, I think it's fine to keep species of the same genus together if the intention is not to breed, and provided people are aware that if they do breed, then fry should not be passed on. It might be a problem though to actually single out the exact parent species when several individuals are involved, and therefore there may be some understandable reluctance to cull potentially valuable fry.

[kev]

Alright mats calm down, I get you don't like hybrids no need for the aggressive block cap's. But at the end of the day people are going to do what they want once they have bought the fish. One, two or even 5 hobbyists crossing the two fish arnt going make difference to the hobby in the slightest.

Racoll I don't agree with you there about loosing true breeding lines, take the Hypans for example there are still plenty of people offering true line fish wether it be L66, L333, L400 or whatever.

[plecoboy]

I would keep the two groups seperate. In regards to Xingu hypans, when the Xingu river is dammed and all we have is captive stock; the last thing we want is hybrids. You can only in-breed them a couple generations and will eventually have to seek outside specimens.
Think about how many people are really breeding hypans? I don't think there are enough to sustain a captive population. What will the situation look like 50 years from now?

[Richard B]

One, two or even 5 hobbyists crossing the two fish arnt going make difference to the hobby in the slightest.
Racoll I don't agree with you there about loosing true breeding lines, take the Hypans for example there are still plenty of people offering true line fish wether it be L66, L333, L400 or whatever.

I think only time will tell on the first point but surely better to be safe than sorry. I think a few hobbyists supplying hybrids could really damage the hobby - i'm thinking about individuals' reputations, finding genuine fish, impact on genuine hobbyist breeders having their stock devalued, etc. We see in threads people asking for IDs of their fish? like i just want it confirmed that these are L173 - answer no they're not sorry. Then there is the ID question where lots of incredibly knowledgeable forum users cannot pinpoint what individual fish are - are they regional variations or hybrids already?

I was in a lfs last year where i overheard a conversation where an old gent was recounting the tale of his cory sterbai breeding with another species (cant remember which one) which he found astounding but he was incredibly proud and had given young to all his friends...

I think L200 & L128 are the same species but different variations, as Neil at Pier has seen a specimen where each side of the fish appeared as each variation - ie L200 from one side and L128 on the other side.

Apathy or support of hybrids by the 'enlightened' really worries me.

[Shane]

In case it's some sort of misunderstanding, I am saying L128 and H. subviridis should not be mixed - it's fine to mix Baryancistrus with Hemiancsitrus.

Mats, I think this part is a miscommunication. Please look at the original post which asks, "also would the B.demantoides get along with a L-128 ok?" Mixing the two genera is actually the title to the thread.

You then jumped down the OP's throat with

I would DEFINITELY not keep H. subviridis with L128, as they may well cross-breed.

when he never even mentioned doing such a thing. That was what got me started...

As to whether L 128 and L 200 represent different spp, I am perfectly willing to admit that one could have a valid opinion other than mine (although I think "splitting" one sp into two based on a slight change in body coloration over a small area that appears to graduate between populations of the same genus in the same habitat is probably stretching the species concept. But again, that is my opinion).

-Shane

[MatsP]

Shane, if your reading is correct, then I do appologise for the misunderastanding. But I read the TITLE of the thread as a question as to the choice between B. demantoides and H. subviridis, and the B. demantoides & L128 as a separate question. I admit I never answered the second question.

--
Mats