Bristlenose plec with bloated stomach

[RachaelN]

Hi everyone

Need some advice about my BN pleco, I've already posted this in another fish keepers forum but I've only had one reply and thought someone here might be able to help. I'm going to copy and paste what I've written on the other forum which I wrote yesterday morning...

' I noticed this morning when my bristlenose pleco was sitting on the glass that his stomach was quite bloated, I've attached a picture. After I thought about it I realised that he hasn't been eating as much recently, maybe not even at all, as even when he does eat I don't actually see him eating it all the time. Normally I feed him (or maybe her, I don't even know lol) courgette and an algae wafer on alternating days and you can usually see that the courgette has been nibbled on quite a bit the next morning but that hasn't been the case for about a week or so I think. And also he hasn't been pooping as much, again maybe not even at all, he would always have a long bit coming out of him because you could always find him sitting on a leaf because the poop would be sticking out lol. I haven't seen him much recently so that's why I hadn't really thought about it but there was hardly any poop on the substrate like there normally is.

I checked the ammonia this morning which was 0 and then the nitrates, first of all I thought the reading was 20-40 but when I looked at it after a while it seemed like it could be 60-80 but are you not meant to read it after a while (about half an hour later) ? I did bang the second bottle on the table like you're supposed to as well. I did a 50% water change after this and the reading is now about 20. I usually do about a 30% water change once a week but I hadn't done one since the Tuesday before last (12 days ago). The temperature is at about 25 degrees Celsius , my heater is set at over 35 degrees Celsius but it only goes up to this much, it's been like this all winter.

I went to Maidenhead Aquatics and the person there didn't really seem to know what it was, he said he didn't think it was bacterial and I mentioned that I'd read on forums that it could be constipation and people advise to use Epsom salts but he said not to. Is he right? But because he didn't really know what it was I don't know whether to listen to him or not. I said I'd read that you could try giving peas which he didn't really say much about but he mentioned giving daphnia because he said that's good for constipation too, I haven't read that anywhere, does anyone agree? I don't know if he'll even eat anything though. He didn't really suggest much to do, he mentioned maybe giving Aquacare anti-internal bacteria which I bought just in case but he said he didn't think it was bacterial first so I don't know if he was trying to get rid of me, I asked if it got worse should I just try that and he said yeah.

Sorry for such a huge post, I just wanted to give you as much information as possible. Oh sorry the tank is 70L and he shares it with five rosy tetras and five glass bloodfin tetras. I got the tank in July last year and added the pleco last in September. Oh and another thing, he didn't mention quarantining him or anything and I forgot to ask. Actually he did ask if I had lost any fish and I said no but I didn't think to say that one of my rosy tetras died around Christmastime after I came back from my mum's after a couple of days and he had a swollen stomach too, do you think it could be an infection then? I've only just thought about that because that was six weeks ago.

Thanks for any replies in advance.'

Yesterday he didn't move from a leaf near the flow of the filter all day, well he moved from one leaf to another and that's it and when I think about it I don't think he has been exploring the tank like normal for a few days. And today again he hasn't moved all day. My partner did notice that he had a bit of poo coming from him earlier but I haven't seen any since.

I'm really worried about him

[RachaelN]

Also I tried giving peas but like I said he hasn't moved all day and won't eat anything. Oh and another thing, I keep calling him a he but someone on the other forum said it's probably a girl because of the lack of bristles, I did suspect this a few months ago when she was getting bigger but we'd already called her Porthos so we call her 'him' lol. Because of this someone on the other forum said it could be eggs but they didn't think that would cause complete loss of appetite.

[Mol_PMB]

Yup, I think he's a girl ;)
They can tend to lose appetite when ready to spawn. Do you just have the one or is there another (possibly male) in there?

Alternatively, it could be a blockage. Personally I wouldn't use the salt bath treatment on a pleco. I would have suggested peas but you've tried that already.

With the tank temperature issue, are you confident in your thermometer? Might be worth a double-check to make sure the temperature is what you think it is?

[RachaelN]

Thanks for your reply no there's no other plecos in there and never have been. Sorry for my ignorance but do they spawn even if there's no male? If so would this make them very lethargic as well?

If it is a blockage could she die? I've read posts about very similar issues and they've ended up dying, would that not mean that an Epsom salt bath is worth a try if it wasn't getting better?

That's the only one I've ever had, I could buy another one just in case. But all the other fish are fine. Would temperature make a difference to something like that then do you think?

[Mol_PMB]

I think it is possible for them to get gravid without a male; that might be what has happened. I'd rather someone else confirmed from their experience. I've only kept pairs or single male BNs.

They can die from a blockage, but also Plecos don't much like salt. I've never done a salt bath so again would hope someone with more experience of this can comment.

I only mentioned temperature because you quoted such a difference between the heater and the thermometer, and I wondered which was right.

[RachaelN]

But Epsom salt isn't actually salt, it's magnesium sulphate. Or do you know they definitely don't like Epsom salts too? Sorry for so many questions, I'm a stresser and I've been thinking about it in work all day and can't stop worrying about it, I just dont want her to suffer.

Yeah it is very weird but I thought it might just be because it's winter, when I got the tank in the summer it was about a degree or two out which I read is normal but when it started getting colder the difference was getting bigger and bigger.

Thank you very much for your replies and your time

[bekateen]

That's the only one I've ever had, I could buy another one just in case.

I would not advise buying another pleco (or even other fish for the same tank) until you are confident there's no trouble. You wouldn't want to be wrong about the diagnosis (I.e., the fish really is sick) and introduce another pleco into the tank which could also get sick and die.

If yours really is just an egg-filled female, I wouldn't worry much about her. Typically, when egg-filled females can't find a partner, they will resorb the old unused eggs or dump them in the tank. Either way, no harm comes to the mom. Rarely an egg-filled female can develop blocked oviducts (the internal egg-releasing tubes) and it can lead to complications, but I know of no universally safe method for forcing the eggs out of her.

Please note that I am not advocating for or against that diagnosis; I am only sharing what I know of the fate of unused eggs, in the event that this diagnosis is correct. Moreover, if you did consider buying a new male, you should quarantine him first for a few weeks, and by then the mom's eggs would be getting older anyway. In other words, there is no quick fix to an egg-filled female.

Good luck, Eric

[Mol_PMB]

Thanks Eric
I've been lucky that I've not had problems like this with my plecs, so I can't speak from experience of how to solve them.

[bekateen]

You're welcome.

Regarding your thermometer and heater, I'm thinking that your heater doesn't work at all, and your aquarium is simply at equilibrium with your household air temperature.

First, how hot is the air in your house? In the winter, I heat my house to 68F (20C), and my unheated aquaria equilibrate to a slightly higher temp, about 73-75F (23-24C). I suspect my unheated tanks stay warmer than room air because of the small amount of heat generated by my filter motors and in-tank recirculating power heads, and because water has a much higher heat capacity than air, which helps to stabilize water temperature relative to air temp.

You can check your heater in two ways:

1. Before starting, with your heater still plugged in like normal, check and write down the temperature of your aquarium water at different times of day (morning, afternoon, evening). Then, early the next day, simply unplug your heater, wait several hours, and re-measure your aquarium temperature over a few more hours. If your heater is broken, the new water temps (with heater unplugged) should closely track the temps measured the day before (when the heater was plugged in). If you heater is working, the tank should be notably cooler without the heater.
2. Alternatively, get a small but tall pitcher or other safe container (glass, or acrylic is probably fine too), one large enough to hold your heater and submerge it appropriately, but not so large that requires lots of water to fill. Fill it with water, let it equilibrate to room temperature, then measure and record the water temperature in the container. Now unplug your aquarium heater, let it rest for 10-15 minutes, then remove the heater from your aquarium and place the heater in this smaller container; plug the heater back into a power supply. Wait a while, then start measuring the temperature in this container again over the next few hours. Obviously, if the heater is working, the water temp should rise rather quickly because the small volume of water in the container won't require much heat to warm up; if the heater is broken, the water won't warm up much, or at all.
   
   This second technique can be deceptive if either (A) the tap water you started with was so cold that it didn't have enough time to warm up/equilibrate to room temperature before you added the heater and measured your starting temp, or (B) your house gets warmer over the course of your test, and so the pitcher water "appears" to heat up, but the temperature change is not being caused by the aquarium heater.

Cheers, Eric

[pleconut]

Hi RachaelN, I agree with what's already been said, I think what you might have there is a gravid female, I have a pair of these, they bred for the first time a few weeks ago. Now my female is full of eggs again fatter than the first time, and looks pretty much like your one does, except my one's albino. Also since breeding for the first time, that's all their minds have been on, they've not been eating much, but now very close to spawning, they are now eating non stop, especially the male. As he wont eat for a few days while he's guarding eggs. This is essentially what is happening with your female BN, i think regarding eating. Without a male the eggs will be absorbed as already said above. In terms of your heater i also live in the UK, its been a fairly mild winter while the heaters in my tanks work a bit harder, there been no significant drops because of the room temp, I'd probably advise you replace the heater, a heater that is not functioning as it should do, can have a very negative impact.

[RachaelN]

Thanks for your very detailed replies, Eric.

Sorry the comment where I said 'That's the only one I've ever had, I could buy another one just in case' was referring to the thermometer not a plec. I wouldn't consider buying a male pleco, I didn't even realise that'd be a solution lol.

I know you said you're not advocating for or against a diagnosis that she's full of eggs but from the picture does it look like a typical egg-filled female? I think her anus looks slightly raised, in the picture you can see a bit of round whiteness that looks like it's slightly swollen so I thought maybe that was due to constipation or a disease? Would that happen if they were filled with eggs and would they be really lethargic like she has been?

With regards to the heater I think it must be working because before Christmas I accidentally forgot (please don't judge me lol) to put it back on for a few hours and the temperature dropped to about 22 I think it was or maybe even lower I can't remember now and normally the temperature is at about 25 but if I turn it up then the temperature goes to about 26. It's pretty cold in my house, we have a weird thermostat system and in the morning the temperature can be only about 18 degrees but the tank is still at 25 degrees. I will try what you said to test it though when I get a chance. I don't mind getting a new one.

Is it worth quarantining her? I have a spare tank that my sister gave me a few years ago before I even got these fish (these are the first fish I've ever had) and I never used it but it's in the garage and is quite dusty so would it still be OK to use? But then I don't have a cycled filter so how long would that take to cycle if I put an extra one in my existing tank? If I had to buy another tank as well I wouldn't mind.

[RachaelN]

Oh sorry pleconut I was writing my reply when you replied. Oh good I hope it is just that then. I know I keep asking this, sorry to be a pain, but were yours really inactive when they were full of eggs? And I assume because they're not eating they didn't go to the toilet much?

I think I will get a new heater then. Any advice for a good one? I'll see if there's any on Amazon so I can get Prime delivery.

Thanks again for replying everyone

[pleconut]

I think the swollen pale white area is most likely to be the genital papillae. This leads me to believe: 1. Definitely a female, and 2. Because of the swelling it's more evidence to suggest its very likely to be a gravid female you have there. (Can anyone else agree, or confirm? @bekateen) I wouldn't sugest moving her the tank she is in has a mature filter, obviously to move her to one without one would not be good for her if someone else can confirm the above two points it may not be that she is sick, but possibly full of eggs.

[pleconut]

My female has been fairly inactive except when the male chases her, the last couple of days, I think getting ready to spawn again, they've both been very active.

[RachaelN]

Ok thank you very much do you know how long she would be like this without a male present? Like when should I start to think it's maybe something else if the swelling doesn't go down?

[pleconut]

Last time my ABNs spawned, it was about a week, after i first noticed my female was gravid, she didn't increase in size any further during this time. Because this was the first spawning the eggs dissolved over time, i dont think they were fertile. This could have been on her part or the males, also he kicked out the eggs from his cave so I had to, for the first time ever attempt to artificially raise them, so maybe on my part. The fertility ammount of eggs produced, increases with age, this time my female is even bigger than the last time but I've noticed her being gravid for about two weeks now. Can you also confirm the size of her as well, in total length, this will also help to rule out or establish if she is gravid. During the time mine weren't eating they wasnt pooping either, but they're eating non stop in the last two days. If it is constipation, vegetables may help and peas with the shells removed are good. What is the normal feeding regime. If you can also give us an idea what you normally feed her with.

[RachaelN]

I was all hopeful on the way home and I came home and my partner came to the door and told me she had died she has weird bristley things coming from out of her gills. I'll attach a picture. When I look at her now it looks a bit like her scales have that pine cone appearance so do you think it's dropsy? Are my other fish at risk?

[bekateen]

First, let me say I'm sorry for your loss. It's never fun to lose a fish, especially when you don't know what's going on.

The weird pine-cone spikes by the gills are odontodes. They are normal and were always present; they were just tucked away before.

If you still have the fish and want to learn more about what happened, I would suggest you wet it and lay it in a bed of wet paper towels, them use scissors to cut a straight line through the skin and muscle wall (but not too deep) into the abdomen, starting from the anus and going forward all the way to in between the two pectoral fins, just behind the gills. Then at each end of this cut, make perpendicular sideways cuts to the left and right of the midline, so that you can open its body like you were opening a pair of French doors. You will be able to see if there are large, probably yellowish ovaries filled with eggs to confirm gender (I expect it's female), and you can examine its stomach and intestines (long coiled tube) to see if it looks expanded in a weird way.

Take lots of pictures and maybe we can help you look for abnormalities. I'm not sure they will be obvious, but maybe we can find something.

Regards, Eric

[pleconut]

Im really sorry to hear this, if it was dropsy, then you will most probably need to treat the tank with an antibacterial treatment that will treat internal infections. Another way dropsy sometimes shows itself is through secondary pop eye disease. I had this happen in a fish before. Plecos do have very firm armoured skin, and it could just be the plates protruding, I personally would run an antibacterial treatment, how are the other fish in the tank. In terms of the gills bristlenose plecos do have hook like structures within the gills, I have seen male ABNs use them to fight.

[RachaelN]

Thank you both. I actually feel a bit teary, I feel a bit silly lol. Bless her. Thank you for that advice, Eric but I'm a bit squeamish and I don't think I could do that. The other fish seem completely fine, should I treat it anyway? Is the treatment I bought (Aquacare anti-internal bacteria) any good?

Edit: Oh no I feel bad because you took the time to draw that diagram!

[RachaelN]

Or is it more likely to be constipation in the end do you think?

[pleconut]

It is upsetting to lose a fish, i fully understand how it feels. I'm not certain of the Aquacare anti- internal bacteria treatment, I'm not saying that you shouldn't use it, just I'm not very experienced when it comes to medications and fish. I shouldn't think there's a problem with using it though, what other fish are in the tank.

[RachaelN]

I read somewhere that dropsy isn't contagious and it's just that other fish just might be more susceptible to getting if there a fish in the tank with them that has it, iis that right? The other fish are five rosy tetras and five glass bloodfin tetras.

I don't mind buying a different medication if anyone thinks it's better.

[pleconut]

It could have been constipation, but another health problem plecos can get is a condition called bloat, this happens when very levels of high protein based foods are fed, this was why, I asked about the feeding regime, I wanted this ruled out as a possible cause of the swelling.

[pleconut]

Usually the protocol for dropsy, as far as I know is to isolate the sick fish.

[RachaelN]

I think I put the feeding regime in my original post but I used to feed her courgette and then a Hikari algae wafer on alternating days.

So do you mean I should just wait to see if any of them seem to develop it and if they do, isolate any of them? I'd have to sort out getting a hospital tank if that's the case. Or do you mean I should just treat it just in case? Sorry I'm being a pain asking loads of questions, I know you said you don't know much about treating them so don't worry, I just didn't know what you meant for me to do when you said about isolating them.

[pleconut]

Hi I looked a bit more into dropsy, usually it's caused by bacteria already present in all systems and just that a weaker or a stressed fish can become more susceptible to it. If you have a fish with dropsy the course of action is to isolate the affected fish. But to keep a close eye on the rest of them. If you look up dropsy in fish online you can get more info. It doesn't seem to me the diet would have caused high protein related bloat. You wasn't excessively feeding high protein foods to the bristlenose.

[RachaelN]

Thank you for looking that up. I'll have another proper look now, sorry I was going to it's just I had to make food when I got home and pancakes and I don't get home 'til late so when I sit down now I'll look into it more.

Yeah that's what I thought. I don't know why it's happened unless she did get an infection because I hadn't changed the water for longer than normal and the nitrate was too high maybe. I hope I didn't cause it

[bekateen]

Edit: Oh no I feel bad because you took the time to draw that diagram!

Please don't feel bad. That drawing took me all of 30 seconds to make, maybe not even that.

If the only foods your fish was getting for food were algae wafers and courgette, then bloat shouldn't have been a problem. However, if the other fish in the tank were being fed a more protein-rich diet, and the catfish was sucking up the leftovers of that food from the tank floor, you may still have had a dietary problem with bloat.

Like Teresa, I'm not well versed with knowing the right from wrong medications, so I too will leave that up to others to comment, should any be inclined to do so. But as Teresa said, supposedly the main treatment to prevent dropsy is addressing water quality, so that infections don't take over in the fish after being stressed by the unhealthy water. In my experience, I've had mixed success with antibiotics to treat dropsy. I think that once the fish is so far gone, the odds that a medication can solve this internal systemic problem are slim.

Regards, Eric

[RachaelN]

Haha ok then

Well the other fish mainly get fed flakes and only occasionally they have frozen tropical mix which I think has bloodworms, daphnia and brine shrimp in it. But that is only about once a month.

I'll just make sure my water is fine then and get a new heater. Like I said, they all seem fine at the moment so hopefully they'll be ok.

Thank you all very much again, if I ever have a problem again I'll definitely come back for help, you've all been very helpful