Adjusting RO water for L333

[Tjd2006]

Hi Everyone! I have bad city tap water. PH is 9 (stays around 8.8 after aeration) KH is 5 and GH is 15.

Kills freshwater shrimp (neocardina can't molt in it and die)

I've been using RO water with SaltyShrim GH/KH with great success in my RO water.

I'd like to find something similar for my L333. Right now they have been doing ok with RO water with Seachem Neutral Regulator added. But PH is still around 7.2. KH is fine around 3. GH I haven't messed with much yet but am considering Seachem Replenish.

Any advice on some re mineralization and perhaps a buffer especially when I try to breed these guys?

[Jobro]

Hey there and welcome,

You will need to keep the KH lower, if you want to try lower PH. But I don't think you need to do anything in order to spawn Hypancistrus in your water. If your individuals are fully matured and ready to spawn, they will.

Cheers Johannes

[dw1305]

Hi all,

.....I'd like to find something similar for my L333. Right now they have been doing ok with RO water with Seachem Neutral Regulator added. But PH is still around 7.2. KH is fine around 3. GH I haven't messed with much yet but am considering Seachem Replenish.

Any advice on some re mineralization and perhaps a buffer especially when I try to breed these guys?

Have a look at @racoll's "Water Chemistry and the Catfish" article:
<https://www.planetcatfish.com/shaneswor ... cle_id=332>.

I'm not a great fan of phosphate buffers (like "Seachem Neutral), a carbonate based one would be better. As you approach pure (RO) water pH becomes less and less stable, have a look at <"Raising TDS using calcium ...: <viewtopic.php?f=5&t=33073>.

If you have a TDS (conductivity) meter? I'd be tempted to use a DIY salt mix and then just add enough to the water to get a datum TDS value. About 100 ppm TDS? (~150 microS)? Others will be able to comment. There are loads of mixes on Discus forums etc.

If it is a planted tank? I would use potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3) rather than sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) as a soluble source of dKH. You can use food grade calcium chloride (CaCl) and "Epsom salts" (MgSO4.7H2O) to give you some dGH.

cheers Darrel

[TwoTankAmin]

I have always been a fan more of mixing RO or RO/DI with tap to achieve the desired parameter range. For one thing it is cheaper the fewer things we need to add. I also think for those of us who are chemistry challenged, keeping things as simple as possible helps. Of course, if one has really nasty tap water, this may not be an option, But that can also mean one needs to do something to their tap to make it "fit" for humans to drink. (Or at least to taste better.)

Have you tried a mix of RO and tap? Is it possible the issue is ions and that adding a DI module might allow such a made and tap water mixture to work

[Tjd2006]

Thanks guys, this is not a planted tank right now. They are still in QT for the time being. TwoTanAmin, I will try to to mix some RO water and Tap but there is something nasty in the water around here that just kills fish. Even the pet stores have labels on their tanks that say "We use RO water and you should too". I think the water company is adding something to keep the PH so high.

The tap water was killing neocardina shrimp left in right before I switched over to RO water. They were getting stuck in their molts and dying. Luckily, SaltyShrimp is really easy to use and easy to measure out!

I know it seems like I am chasing after water parameters but to be honest the tap water is hell here.

[Bas Pels]

What might help if filterine your water - either tap water or tap water diluted with RO water, over active carbon.

Active carbon could adsorb whatever it is is killing your shrimp. Problem is, active carbon is expensive. It can be regenerated, but then you´ll have to know what it is you are absorbing.

Heavy metals bor instance can come loose in low pH (pH 2 or less) but organics will not - those require the use of an organic solvent.

if you want to regenerate corbon saturated with chlorated organic compounds, you could use dichloromethane, also a chlorated organic compound, which will replace the orioginals, but the dichloromethane will after replacing evaporate while drying.

Problem is, if the carbon is saturated with aromatics, the same tric could be done with toluene, but you will not want to have the toluene evaporating anywhere near an inhabited area. Cause it´s carcinogenic.

That is, unless you are certain what is the toxic, it is both hard to regenerate the carbon, and if you know this, it is possible you rather not regenerate in the first place.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I think the water company is adding something to keep the PH so high. ..........

The water company will add a base (http://articles.extension.org/pages/323 ... adjustment) to keep the pH elevated above pH7, it stops lead (Pb), zinc (Zn) and copper (Cu) coming into solution from old pipes.

In the UK they mainly use sodium hydroxide (NaOH) injection. When you add a strong base (like NaOH) to water it goes into solution fully (as Na+ and OH- ions), so it raises pH but it doesn't add any buffering. "Buffer" has a specific chemical definition, the is more discussion here (viewtopic.php?f=5&t=32350&start=20#p214103).

I know it seems like I am chasing after water parameters but to be honest the tap water is hell here.

If you were in Europe I would have suggested cutting your RO with tap and adjusting your TDS to 100ppm TDS (150 microS), but I think (in Europe) we underestimate just how nasty some of your tap water is (https://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/vie ... =2&t=45762), although I'm sure tap water quality will slide in the UK once we've left the EU.

Because of your water quality issues I'd definitely go with 100% RO and a DIY salt mix, if you use sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3), calcium chloride (CaCl) and "Epsom salts" (MgSO4.7H2O), they are all ingredients that you can buy "over the counter" pretty cheaply.

Have a look at (http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/RO.htm)

cheers Darrel

[Jobro]

I would get a stone that hardens up water inside the tank. And then I would go with 100% RO Water. Maybe add some minerals every once in a while.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I would get a stone that hardens up water inside the tank. And then I would go with 100% RO Water. Maybe add some minerals every once in a while.

Some "Cockle/Oyster shell Chick grit" would work as well, it is sold for chickens, and is an easily soluble (aragonite) form of calcium carbonate (CaCO3). "Coral sand" is a less environmentally friendly alternative.

The Cuttlefish "bone" (they sell for caged birds) is another option.

cheers Darrel

[TwoTankAmin]

My experience has taught me not all additives dissolve equally readily in water. For some time I worked dry and rainy seasons by increasing my TDS/GH/KH and then using my tap as the rainy season water. The one thing I wanted to avoid was a build up of sodium in the water. I also did not want to raise the pH by much.

I found that the most difficult thing to get into the water was Caclium carbonate, aka dissolving crushed coral or aragonite. I used to fill the carbon basket of a H.O.T. Magnum with crushed coral and run it on 20 gals of water for 15-20 hours as the first step. With luck this raised the TDS by about 20 ppm. What gave things the real boot was the magnesium in the form of Epsom salts. The final ingredient was a pinch of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate). A very small amount went a long way. My guess is I was adding maybe 1/2 teaspoon at most. When done, I had moved the water from its neutral pH and 80+ ppm TDS to something in the range of pH 7.4-7.6 and TDS to 180-250 ppm (depending on where in the dry season I was). These were all very cheap ingredients as Darrel noted. However, I was adding these things to my tap, not to 100% RO water. Today I use RO/DI for my altum angels, but I also mix it about 50/50 with my tap.

The reason this mixing is important as far as I am concerned is there are a lot more things in water which are essential for aquatic lifeforms. They are present in small amounts. A perfect example of this can be seen with Seachem products. They have a discus buffer and this is what they tell users of the product:

Discus Buffer® helps to replicate the ideal Discus environment (low pH & low GH (General Hardness)). Discus Buffer® will lower pH and keep it lowered. Discus Buffer® also softens water by precipitating calcium and magnesium. Use Discus Trace® to restore the proper level of trace elements

Italics added by me from http://www.seachem.com/discus-buffer.php

Here is a description of what Discus trace contains:
Guaranteed Analysis [u]Amounts per 1 gr ... 0.007 mg
from http://www.seachem.com/discus-trace.php

They also want one to feed their discus flakes, you can see the trace ingredients these contain here http://www.seachem.com/nutridiet-discus.php

Clearly the above are seen by Seachem as being necessary for healthy discus. It is not difficult for us as fish keepers to measure the more important parameters of our water, but when it comes to essential trace elements or how much of what is in the foods we feed, we have little or no idea about what is needed nor what is specifically there. Nor do most of us know how much of these things might be supplied by the diet we provide our fish. And when using 100% RO or RO/DI water, I worry about this sort of thing.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

My experience has taught me not all additives dissolve equally readily in water. .........I found that the most difficult thing to get into the water was Calcium carbonate, aka dissolving crushed coral or aragonite. I used to fill the carbon basket of a H.O.T. Magnum with crushed coral and run it on 20 gals of water for 15-20 hours as the first step. With luck this raised the TDS by about 20 ppm.

That is because of the very limited solubility of calcium carbonate, how much goes into solution (as Ca++ and 2HCO3-) depends upon the amount of dissolved CO2, you can get more into solution at lower temperatures (gases are more soluble at lower temperatures) or by raising CO2 levels. When the temperature rises, or CO2 levels fall, the calcium carbonate will precipitate back out.

What gave things the real boot was the magnesium in the form of Epsom salts. The final ingredient was a pinch of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate). A very small amount went a long way. My guess is I was adding maybe 1/2 teaspoon at most. When done, I had moved the water from its neutral pH and 80+ ppm TDS to something in the range of pH 7.4-7.6 and TDS to 180-250 ppm (depending on where in the dry season I was).

These compounds are both pretty soluble, and would raise TDS, dGH and dKH.

The reason this mixing is important as far as I am concerned is there are a lot more things in water which are essential for aquatic lifeforms. ......And when using 100% RO or RO/DI water, I worry about this sort of thing.

I would as well, but some structural leaf litter and a good diet should supply all these essential elements. I've not used Seachem Discus buffer, but I don't see why it wouldn't work as well.

cheers Darrel