A couple Synos...

DeepFriedIctalurus · Post by **DeepFriedIctalurus** » 08 Mar 2004, 09:06

Well I've poked around here long enough and I finally got the digicam borrowed.

So I thought I'd emplore the help of the best resouce out there, in my opinion...

Syno #1 I've had for a little under a year, bought at 4cm SL and now is about 13-14cm. The little guy #2 I've had for almost 3 years and has been locked down for 2 of those at 10cm.
The 1st is pretty distinctive but I can get more pics of the 2nd if needed.

Here's a link to the gallery since I haven't gotten around to getting them onto a forum-viewable site yet.
http://public.fotki.com/Tylerja/synos/

TIA,
Tyler

magnum4 · Post by **magnum4** » 08 Mar 2004, 11:16

Yellow = synodontis gambiensis

No clue = synodontis omias

Post by **Silurus** » 08 Mar 2004, 11:28

I do not think the fish are either S. gambiensis or S. omias. The first fish is too deep-bodied for S. gambiensis, and I am fairly certain that it's S. resupinatus.
The second fish reminds me of an S. gobroni, although I know it isn't one. Got more pics?

DeepFriedIctalurus · Post by **DeepFriedIctalurus** » 09 Mar 2004, 11:32

Ok sorry about the slow reply, the dinosaur (computer) ate something it didn't like yesterday... I was wondering if S. gambiensis is the fish Armke's likes to call "Whami R. golden". I read a short description of it in an article online that said this fish had dark bars in it's tail.
Anyway my yellow Syno has a clear yellow tail so the only identifying mark I can make out is the darker spot on the shoulder. It was also peppered w/ very fine black specks on it's back when it was small. I couldn't get more pics of it since this 1 really hates coming to the front of the tank.

On the other hand I did get more shots of the little guy and 2 w/ flash. But excuse the poor thing's condition, my angelicus really gives it a hard time. Would anyone like a nice polkadot? hehe

Thanks for the quick responses tho.. I at least got to read it somewhere else.

Post by **Silurus** » 09 Mar 2004, 16:21

I was wondering if S. gambiensis is the fish Armke's likes to call "Whami R. golden"

No, Armke's fish is S. rufigiensis (which is not your fish).

DeepFriedIctalurus · Post by **DeepFriedIctalurus** » 09 Mar 2004, 20:54

Ahhhh, funny to see both of their "undescribed" fish are the same species. That's just the only yellow fish I've ever seen other than S. frontosus, which doesn't really match in any way but body shape. Anyway I've be glad to offer some better pics of this fish later for Cat E-log if Jools is interested...

So the pics of the smaller fish weren't much help? I didn't really have big aspirations of it being IDed since it's so nondescript anyway.

But hey, thanks again!

Post by **Silurus** » 09 Mar 2004, 21:03

I didn't see the new pics before. Think it's S. nigromaculatus.

DeepFriedIctalurus · Post by **DeepFriedIctalurus** » 12 Mar 2004, 06:44

Not to discount your experience, but are you sure?
My fish's ill-defined spotting, humeral process & body shape don't seem to match up quite right w/ S. nigromaculatus.

Erwin · Post by **Erwin** » 12 Mar 2004, 09:10

I remember that I took once a picture of a Syno from Nigeria, which looks close to the yellow one. I believe it is the same species which we just had in discussion in the subject "Synos from Nigeria". I think the yellow onces are only a variety of the S. schall without dots. If it's really is the same species, than it would answer my last question in the other subject, if they can grow bigger than 10 cm, because your fish looks like he has passed this size.

Okey, here comes the picture of the specimen without dots. You will notice some bumps sticken out of its skin, this seems to be some kind of desease. Most specimens of that import had this kind of bumps. Some Nigerian waters are heavily polluted. The bumps could be a reaction to the water conditions.

Erwin

Erwin · Post by **Erwin** » 12 Mar 2004, 09:18

By the way, the other fish can't be S. nigromaculatus. They look much different, more elongated and with a flat adipose fin. How about S. obesus?

Erwin

Post by **Silurus** » 12 Mar 2004, 12:34

I wasn't very confident that the second syno was S. nigromaculatus to begin with. This is a species I have seen that ends up as a contaminant in shipments of S. nigrita and for which the identity still completely eludes me. It's definitely not S. obesus, though (what I think is S. obesus can be seen in this post).
I think it's the same fish labeled as adult S. robbianus In the Cat-eLog (given my last reply to Erwin's post, I don't think the one in the Cat-eLog is S. robbianus either).

DeepFriedIctalurus · Post by **DeepFriedIctalurus** » 14 Mar 2004, 03:01

Erwin-
That pics you posted looks like a dead-on match for my yellow fish, could it be possible that it's S.resupinatus too? Seems they also come from Nigeria. It has me that much more interested in these bumps though, what size was that fish collected at? Mine's just had the 1 since I brought it home at just under 5cm SL, and hasn't gotten much bigger or multiplied. Makes me think you might be right about pollution as a possible cause, especially if that fish was caught at a larger size.
About the fish in your Nigeria post, mine had no dark bars in the caudal lobe and the specks resembled your 6cm fish. Specks were lighter and disappeared after passing 5cm, but it's obvious all these fish are closely related. On the other hand there was one exactly like your 5cm fish in the same batch, unfortunately it was killed by a Pseudopimelodus bufonis trying to eat it. Or else I'd have a sub-adult of that to see here too.

Heok Hee-
I bought quite a few Synos back when the unknown joined my tank so I can't say for certain what it was shipped with, but S.nigrita was certainly common then too. There was also a very similar fish that shared it's olive color & smaller max size, but had a higher head profile and didn't have the slight depression between the eyes. I had 3 for about a year and they had more irregularly shaped spots w/ better defined edges, similar to pics 1-3 of S.schoutedeni in the E-log.
I still see these mixed in "lace cats" shipments.
Can't see the adult "robbianus" in the E-log very well due to a junk monitor here, but I can see the fins match perfectly...right down to the bitten tips, hehe

Found this while looking up S.robbianus, it resembles mine but doesn't show up real well for me either..
http://www.scotcat.com/images/robianus.jpg

I assume these must be the real robbianus..
http://www.catfish.cz/popisy/mochok/per ... n_rob2.jpg
http://www.akwafoto.pl/fotoreport/rychn ... ianus1.jpg

Post by **Silurus** » 14 Mar 2004, 04:43

I assume these must be the real robbianus..
http://www.catfish.cz/popisy/mochok/per ... n_rob2.jpg
http://www.akwafoto.pl/fotoreport/rychn ... ianus1.jpg

These are actually S. nigrita. Will post pics of S. robbianus when I get the chance.

DeepFriedIctalurus · Post by **DeepFriedIctalurus** » 14 Mar 2004, 07:21

Ahhhhh funny, I knew I should've been a bit more skeptical when I noticed how similar to S.nigrita they looked. Thanks for the heads-up.

Erwin · Post by **Erwin** » 14 Mar 2004, 15:06

Hi DeepFriedIctalurus,

The problem with the Nigerian Synos is, that they are in the trade mostly in a size less than 10 cm, but in Poll's book (which is the only one trustable for Nigerian Synos) are mostly large sized specimens illustrated (> 25 cm). And we all know that Synos change their pattern and bodyheight during growth. Also characters like the shape of the humeral process, which is very characteristic in adult specimens, is changing from juvenile to adult stage. The next problem is, that we don't know much about the variation of each species from river to river, and hardly nothing is known about morphs. For instance it could be, that the yellow fish is a morph or a geographical variant of the fish in the "Synos from Nigeria" post, but it also could be that it is a different species. The bars in the caudal are in some fish visible, in others not. I don't think that means they are different species, but it also could be. The best would be, if somebody could take photographs of different grow-stages of one and the same individual. But this would mean to keep them in an aquarium for quite a while.

Even I did not measure the fish with the bumps, I remember that it was not very big, I would say not longer than 6 or 7 cm SL.

About S. robbianus: I believe, that the fish in the cat-eLog under S.victoriae is S. robbianus. I know for sure that it is not S. victoriae, because I have seen this species in Uganda, and the only correct image of one is given in Seehausen's book "Lake Victoria rock c ichlids". On the opposite, I don't think that the fish in the cat-eLog which is called an adult S. robbianus is that species.

Erwin

Post by **Silurus** » 15 Mar 2004, 01:41

Here is S. robbianus from the original description:

And S. schall from Boulenger:

If you compare the two drawings carefully and consider the spotted juvenile coloration of S. schall, perhaps Willoughby was on to something after all (i/e/ they may be conspecific).

I agree that the pics of S. victoriae on the Cat-eLog are not correctly identified, but I strongly disagree that they are S. robbianus (here are some pics of the real S. victoriae for comparison:

juvenile

adult)

I think that the pics of S. victoriae and in Aqualog are actually that of S. nigrita. The adipose fin may seem too long, but Poll illustrates two forms, one with a longer adipose fin than the other. Bearing in mind that there is a lot of purported variability in S. nigrita, it is likely that what is now recognized as S. nigrita is probably at least two distinct species.

DeepFriedIctalurus · Post by **DeepFriedIctalurus** » 15 Mar 2004, 05:20

Interesting stuff, I guess the true scope of the amount of work to be done in classifying fish will never truely be realized. Especially since hardly anyone ever records exactly where individual aquarium fish came from. Now I'm plenty happy with the ID of S.resupinatus since this at the very least seperates it from the typical brown S.schall, even if it really could be one. But I was curious if a picture of these fish exist anywhere?

Also I don't mind that the other fish is unidentified at the time, poor thing will find a name sooner or later. At the very least I can recommend this fish to most people since it doesn't get very large or aggressive, unlike the resupinatus. If I see more, I'll pick up a couple more olive Synos and we can see what those grow into. None seem to grow very slowly!
Mainly because after having the ever-popular angelicus for a while, I long for more from the other end of the attitude scale...to say the least.

Just glad there's a place to have a conversation like this..thanks guys

Erwin · Post by **Erwin** » 15 Mar 2004, 09:17

Interesting pictures Heok Hee, do you know where from the adult specimen of S.victoriae is? Here for comparison the holotype and a living specimen from Lake Victoria:

Erwin

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 15 Mar 2004, 09:57

DeepFriedIctalurus wrote:Anyway I've be glad to offer some better pics of this fish later for Cat E-log if Jools is interested...

I've come to this one late and would welcome the pictures especially once the IDs have been ascertained (been meaning to change S. victoriae for ages and a few others).

Anyway, if you could email them as identified to [email protected] along with the details for the photo credit, I'd appreciate it.

Cheers,

Jools

Post by **Silurus** » 15 Mar 2004, 10:58

do you know where from the adult specimen of S. victoriae is?

Presumably from Lake Victoria. The picture was taken from FishBase and contributed by Luc de Vos, so I am fairly certain that the identification is correct (unfortunately, Luc is no longer with us, so we may never know exactly where the fish came from).
It should not surprise me that there may be more than one species of "S. victoriae" in the lake. Presumably, the same thing may be happening with the synos in Lake Victoria as in Lake Tanganyika.

Erwin · Post by **Erwin** » 15 Mar 2004, 11:20

About the pictures in cat-eLog of S.victoriae, which I believe is S.robbianus.

I am also not 100 % sure, that this fish is S. robbianus, but this is the closest match. I think, this picture:

shows the same species as it is displayed in cat-eLog. I just can't see to many similarities with the drawings of S. nigrita (e.g. in Poll's book). In the closeup:

you can notice pretty good matches of S. robbianus with the fish on my picture, concerning the shape of the humeral process and serrations of the pectoral spine. The nuchal plate is not to much different, but the posttemporal plate is. But also in the drawings of the two different color forms of S. nigrita in Poll (1971) you can notice two different shaped posttemporal plates. A better match of all these characters could be find in S. velifer, even the shape of the body is more close, but the extension of the dorsal fin is not. Also is S. velifer recorded from Ghana and Ivory Coast. Okey, there are sometimes commercial imports from Ghana, but still, I don't believe it is this species. On the other hand, sometimes this species can be seen with less and a bit larger sized spots on the sides, like in this picture:

But still these spots are not as large as I would expect them in S. velifer.

Erwin

Post by **Silurus** » 15 Mar 2004, 11:34

I would not rate the shape of the posttemporals as being very important diagnostic characters, simply because the lateroventral edge (where it comes in contact with the humeral process) has a tendency to be buried under the skin and be obscured.
I still think the closest match is S. nigrita. Synodontis robbianus, like S. schall has fairly long and thin branches of the mandibular barbels, which I don't see in this fish. The short, thick branches are more characteristic of S. nigrita.

Erwin · Post by **Erwin** » 15 Mar 2004, 11:51

Hmh, the next problem is, that S.nigrita should reach about 22 cm, while this species stays pretty small. There is a breeding report on it from Herbert Winkelmann:

Winkelmann, H. (2002): Ein Zwerg unter den Fiederbartwelsen (DATZ 55 (6): 8-11)

in which he reports, that his male reached only 9 cm, the female 12 cm! But you are right about the latoventral edge of the temporal plate, in Winkelman's pictures they look even more close to S. robbianus, while it is buried under skin in the fish on my picture.

Erwin

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 15 Mar 2004, 11:56

@erwin what is the pictured Synodontis victoriae in Mergus Bd.5 then? I remember it being very grey colored compared to these pics.

Post by **Silurus** » 15 Mar 2004, 14:02

If we consider what is now S. nigrita to belong to more than one species, then size is not an issue here (different sizes, different species). But truthfully, I have not encountered any specimens of S. nigrita larger than 15 cm in aquaria (although I have seen preserved specimens of that size).

stallion81 · Post by **stallion81** » 15 Mar 2004, 17:51

Kinda jumpin in late , but anyhow DFI I have 2 synos exactly like your "unknown" little fella. They were sold as "lace" synos. Mine are bout 2.5 and 2.75 inches now. I had bought 1 and went back 3-4 weeks later and got the other. Had 1 3 months and the other 2. Havent grown much. I was callin them FFs , due to a picless post , But seen a juvie FF the other day and looked totally diff. I do have them in seperate tanks , cause they kinda scrapped when together. But the 1 does get along with my lace and multi. Ill post pics if they ever get to 4". The Mods and experts on this site are great , maybe at 4" itll be easier to determine. I thought they might be a little "rare".

Erwin · Post by **Erwin** » 16 Mar 2004, 08:18

About the picture in the Aquarium Atlas Vol.5 (p.433): I think the closest match is that of a young S. acanthomias. For S. courteti its barbels are to long(?), also S. courteti is comming from an area with no commercial imports, so I believe most fish displayed as S. courteti in other aquarium books/journals are just also S. acanthomias. This species can't be identified just by the size and number of its dots, the variation of this character is to big. S. courteti owns shorter barbels, and is a fish known only up to a size of about 10 cm!

I'm also sure that the picture labeled S.victoriae in Kobayagawa (1991, German version) or (which is the same) in "Das GroÃ?e Buch der Welse" (p.190), is not this species. I'm almost certain that its also S. njassae like the one on top of it, and only displays a specimen with more dots.

For the "little fellow" the identification with pictures had come to end end. It's just not possible. We need specimens to make more detailed examinations, and they had to be compard with type material. When I see them next at the wholesaler I try to find out from were they was shiped from, and I try to get a few specimens. But that takes time.

Erwin