changing water

[Nik_Boyd]

appologies if this seems a really stuipid beginner question, but it is so...

I'm guessing with a tropical tank you can't change 20/30% of the water without getting the temperature of the incoming water the same as the tank so, how does everyone go about changing water?

thanks,

Nik

[fishmadbarry]

Hi Nik,
I'd usually stick some boiled water from the kettle in, to take the chill off. For my discus tank though I have a 100l water butt with a 150w New-watt (the unbreakable aluminium one) heater in it, so the temperature really is the same. Really depends on the size and purpose of your tank. Alot of species are not really fussed about a little drop/raise in temperature and it's known to induce spawning in some.

How big is your tank and what do you keep?

Barry

[buzz763]

i have a 220 gallon and a 72 gallon, i bought a 50ft hose with a gravel syphon at the end of it. all of the water that i remove from the tank i pull through the gravel. this serves 2 purposes, cleans out the gravel and takes some water out. now as far as adding water to the tank i use tap water. not the best, but it works. and i always add the water at the exact or real close temp, so i don't shock my fish. i always add dechlorinater to the tank just before i add water, don't want to hurt my bacteria. have done it this way for years and have never lost a fish after a water change. the hose i bought is called a python it's made for cleaning tanks. works awesome i can take water out and put it back in with the same hose. no lifting heavy buckets. hope this helps.

[fishmadbarry]

Sounds LIke you have it sorted to me, I used to hate doin my 9 foot, glad to see the back of it. For now at least, I can definitly see myself creeping back towrds bigger tanks.
barry

[MatsP]

There's (at least) three different methods here, and everyone has it's advantages and disadvantages.

Let's split things up first, and then combine again...

First you need to get water OUT of the tank. I use a regular gravel-syphon, the larger size to match the tank [if in doubt, pay the extra two pounds for the next size up and cut it with a hacksaw to fit, because you don't want to put your hands too deep in the tank], about 15-20 quid at your LFS. I use a long hose that I put into an outside drain, so that I don't have to carry buckets both directions.

The Python is a neat solution if you have a "screw on" tap with drain, so that you can attach it.

Once you got some water OUT of the tank, you need to fill it up again.
I use a simple builders bucket (clean one, not one with remnants of concrete and soil from your building/gardening projects!). 1 pound or so at any decent DIY shop or a local hardware store for a bit more.

Others use a hose connected directly to the tap. If you can do that, great, but you need hot & cold taps. I used this method to get the tank filled in the first place (400 liter in 12-14 liter buckets makes a lot of running even if it's a short distance), but I only have hose connection to cold-water tap (outside), so I added a few "hot" buckets from the kitchen.

And while you're filling, you need to match the temperature. The water going into the tank should be relatively close to the temperature of the tank contents, unless you are doing something special to for instance induce spawning.

To do this, you need a "thermometer". You can buy a nice thermometer at a chemical lab supplier, or get one at the fish shop for 2-4 quid.

I don't use a thermometer, just my hand to feel the temperature. I tend to aim for "slightly cooler", and let the heater take it back up. Works for me... Obviously, the smaller the tank, the closer match you need. If it's a big tank, and you're adding a bucket at a time, you won't change it that much with one bucket. On a small tank, adding one bucket of 10L to, say, 20 or 30L water will obviously change it by half the difference in temperature (so if your water is 10 degrees cooler than the tank, it will drop the whole tank's temperature by 5 degrees).

Finally, we need to find a source of heated water. Some people tend to use kettle-boiled water. If you have a large kettle or urn, that's great. But with a large tank, I find that it takes too much time, so I just use the hot-water tap and mix in the bucket.

Absolutely sure is that you should add dechlorinator to the water. Most of them also contain something to remove other harming materials (or so they claim), such as heavy metals etc. I uses Stress Coat, which comes in a nice "pump" bottle (like liquid soap) [only the biggest bottle, 1 us pint, has the pump, but you'll need it...], so you pump twice into a bucket, no messing about with measuring etc. Stress coat also uses less per liter of whater, so don't be fooled by the other brands which cost less, but actually doesn't last as long [stress coat says 1ml per 2 gallon, whilst a lot of others use 1ml per gallon or more].

These are my personal opinions, and there are others that do things different. They are probably right in any and all of the criticisms of what I do.

--
Mats

[bronzefry]

It would help to know how many tank(s) you have, the size of the tank(s) and if you use tap or filtered water. This would help in figuring out which options are best for you. You can always purchase a spare heater. Pour the clean water into a bucket or barrel specifically purchased for this purpose and used for nothing else. Place the heater in with a thermometer and the water to be warmed. Do the same tests on the water as you would with your tank before doing a water change, just to check the quality. I do this with reverse osmosis filtered water. But, it's a 44 gallon barrel on casters. If you only need a few gallons, this might be too much.

[MatsP]

From previous posts, Nik is probably (almost certainly) talking of a 350 liter Juwel Trigon, so about 80-90 US gallon or so, changing something like 20 gallon at a time.

Obviously, anyone that uses a RO unit to produce the water, it makes sense to put a heater in the RO collecting tank, and as long as the collecting tank is never empty, it should work fine.

I have a feeling Nik isn't going to use RO water, but just regular tap-water [I'm guessing here]...

--
Mats

[racoll]

i always add colder water into the tank. the fish don't seem to mind a drop of 2 or 3 degrees. it obviously depends on what your keeping. most catfish or riverine fish won't care, it's just like a heavy rain storm.

but i wouldn't do it with lake fish like tanganikans that are used to more stable water parameters.

[Nik_Boyd]

I am indeed talking about a Trigon 350, which should hopefully arrive in just over a month.

Mats, can I ask what an RO unit is? if its anything that improves water quality, I'm likely to buy one, as out water from the tap is terrible, usually contains nitrates and loads of phosphate.

*note above*
I now know what an RO unit is and what it does, I understand that you can get more or less perfect water and that they hook up to mains water, so I'm assuming water in the tank is being changed all the time? if so, do you need and overflow or some other system for taking waste water away?

thanks for all the replies people!

[racoll]

an RO isn't linked up to the tank in any way. you just fill your water change buckets up with with it.

i have one. i think they are worth every penny.

although it depends on what you want to keep. if you want a tank full of mollies and guppies, don't bother. if you're serious about catfish, get one.

look to spend about £120 for a decent one.

i got mine of ebay.

http://search.ebay.co.uk/osmosis_W0QQfromZR40QQsojsZ1

get as high a gpd (gallon per day) rating you can. they do produce a woeful amount of water.

ask me if you have any queries. RO is pretty daunting and confusing.

[coelacanth]

i always add colder water into the tank. the fish don't seem to mind a drop of 2 or 3 degrees. it obviously depends on what your keeping. most catfish or riverine fish won't care, it's just like a heavy rain storm

I do the same. With most fish I really don't worry about a drop of a few degrees, with a correctly-rated heater the water is back up to temperature very quickly. When using a Python there is always the option of trickling the water back in as slowly as you like (but don't forget it!). Judging by the L. pectorale nest in the tank behind me and the baby Teleogramma and Thoracochromis downstairs it seems to work OK.

but i wouldn't do it with lake fish like tanganikans that are used to more stable water parameters.

I would agree here also. Although Malawis don't seem to mind that much, it would certainly be advisable with these and most definitely with "Tangys".

[racoll]

or with discus!

[coelacanth]

or with discus!

Actually had no problems doing this with healthy Discus, even while breeding. However I wouldn't do it with any of the various neurotic cultivars (but then again I wouldn't give them tank room anyway...).

[bronzefry]

Sorry for the confusion, Nik! Now, may I ask you a question. What's a Trigon 350?

[Nik_Boyd]

the Trigon 350 is a 350lt corner tank produced by Juwel. you can find their website here:

http://www.juwel-aquarium.de/uk/index.html

Seems a nice large tank for quite a confined space, and will take up much less room than a standard shape 350lt tank.

[bronzefry]

What a lovely tank kit. I've never seen anything close to that in the US. Have fun!

[MatsP]

get as high a gpd (gallon per day) rating you can. they do produce a woeful amount of water.

ask me if you have any queries. RO is pretty daunting and confusing.

Any chance you could write up a little list of things to think about, what the realistic performance is, etc, and your collected knowledge on the subject. I know what RO is [roughly how it works and why you would want it], but it seems like there are several pitfalls and many things to consider. I think a new subject would be a good start...

--
Mats

[bronzefry]

Mats, if this doesn't help you:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... hp?t=10925
please pm me.

[Elspeth]

I guess I'm the odd one out. We use pumps to drain and fill the tanks on water-change day. Have a big plastic storage tub that we put in the bathtub, mix the fill-water (from the tap) to the destination temperature. That's hubby's job, he can get it to within 2 degrees or less. Add dechlor and other water treatments as appropriate for whichever tank we're filling, let the pump stir it around. We use hoses on the drain and fill pumps, so just hook the hose back up and bingo, treated water goes to the tank at 500 GPH. At the moment. We're switching to 1200 GPH pumps hopefully next week (pumps on order, we'll see how soon they get here).

[bronzefry]

If it works and the fish are healthy, then there's nothing odd about it.

[racoll]

Any chance you could write up a little list of things to think about, what the realistic performance is, etc, and your collected knowledge on the subject. I know what RO is [roughly how it works and why you would want it], but it seems like there are several pitfalls and many things to consider. I think a new subject would be a good start...

sorry about the delay, i would love to explain all i know about setting up an RO unit. perhaps this should go in a new thread? the moderators can decide.

normally, an RO is permenantly installed as part of your plumbing, and hidden away under the kitchen sink for example. it is always on, and a stopcock fills a large vat where you store water, so you always have some when you need it.

now this method isn't practical for some people (like me) who

a) rent their house, and can't mess with the plumbing, and
b) don't have room for the equipment, or
c) can't be bothered to go to this effort.


i have got round this by installing a temporary system. i don't have water whenever i want, so i have to run the RO in time for a water change.

an RO comes with a self-tapping valve that pierces a copper water pipe (COLD) to feed it. i have cut a 6 inch section of this pipe and blocked one end with a valve, and installed a screw thread to the other. the RO's valve goes into the copper pipe to provide pressure.

the screw thread cunningly attaches to my shower hose (with the head removed)

the beauty of this system is that RO units are notoriously leaky, and with this method, it just sits in the bath and leaks as much as it likes.

it's a 60 gallon per day (24 hour i think) model. the production varies according to water temp/pressure/hardness.

all of these things are very poor in my case, resulting in a pitiful 35 litres (about 8 ukg) a day.

this is ok for me, but it does get a bit irritating having to keep disconnecting every time someone needs a shower.

you can buy pumps to speed this up, but that would only work in a permenantly plumbed in system.

the rest of the time it sits in the cupboard. it's important to make sure it doesn't drain and destroy the membrane. do this by storing it with all the tubing above the unit. this won't be a problem though if you use the unit weekly (as you should)

i am on predicted water rates, so i can "waste" as much as i like. people on meters may have to pay quite a lot more for the water they use, as the RO pours tens of litres away for every litre that it produces.

i also had problems with really high pH water from the unit when i first got it. i think it will took several days of flushing for it to go down. i reckon it was the preservative solution the membrane was stored in when it arrived vacuum packed.

here are some pics to help you visualise the set up.

any questions, just ask.

[MatsP]

Thanks racoll.

Why didn't you just use an "end-cap" instead of a valve to terminate your piece of pipe?

Also, don't you have better pressure for instance in the kitchen? That's usually your primary water-supply, so it would normally have the best pressure, unless you live in a high place. Of course, finding a way to plumb it in without having to loose a big chunk of your deposit on the rent is a different story... But a T-piece and a short piece (3-4") of pipe with a end-cap would probably work without being too noticable.

I _do_ own my own house, and don't mind doing simple plumbing stuff...

Of course, my main concern was the "what stuff do you need to look for" when chosing one of these units, rather than the plumbing bits. You do mention one important factor, the mismatch between specified Gallons per day and actual GPD. [And I did think that "day" in this case would mean 24 hr, rather than 8 or 12 hours].

--
Mats

[racoll]

Why didn't you just use an "end-cap" instead of a valve to terminate your piece of pipe?

ah yes, i forgot to mention that. i was worried that air could get into the system, so i open and shut that valve to get rid of the air before opening the twist valve to the RO.

you are probably right about pressure being higher in the kitchen, but i have no space to put it.

as for units, i think they're much of a muchness. get one with decent carbon and sediment pre-filters (the 3 stage ones), and the membrane will last much longer. i don't know if deionisation is really necessary unless you're a reef-keeper. i removed mine as it slowed water production down even further!

i bought mine from "the kitchen shop" on ebay (very good service).

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/The-Kitchen-Shop

i think mine was a 100gdp unit actually (£119.50 + £15.50 p&p). it's made by a canadian company called "aqua-safe systems". i've had no problems with it. i suggest getting the biggest one you can afford. i dread to think how much a 20 gpd "bare-bones" unit produces.

i imagine if you set them up properly with a booster pump, they will produce a lot more water though. i live above a shop, so i think the water pressure will also be lower. the water in my area is also really hard.

are you thinking about getting one?

[MatsP]

I haven't decided to get one, but it's definitely something I'm considering. It would be good to lower the hardness of the water, and RO is really one of the few ways to do that effectively without much messing about.

--
Mats

[bronzefry]

Here's my little set-up:

The prefilters are only a few weeks old. The Spring road work is starting up again. Yick! All the outdoor pipes get disturbed and you see the results. The TDS is still acceptable at 35. I just filled the barrel:

It's disconnected now and ready to roll into the fish room. I can fill up separate containers with drinking water or completely disconnect the filter and use the sink.

There are so many ways to do this. It's limited by your imagination.