New tank/filtration

Shaun · Post by **Shaun** » 05 Oct 2006, 02:13

Setting up a new tank, 3'x2'x18". It will house 5 Panaque maccus and probably some whiptails...
What are my best options as far as filtration are concerned? It needs to provide a currnet and good mechanical filtration. Can someone recommend something?
Thanks
Shaun

Santa-clause · Post by **Santa-clause** » 05 Oct 2006, 03:08

Panaque's are poo machine so you will need superior filtration. I suggest one of the new models of fluval and if money isn't a problem id get 2 fluval 405. You will have a good amount of current, but you will need to keep up water changes.

Shaun · Post by **Shaun** » 05 Oct 2006, 06:47

Hmm...I'm a bit sceptical of canisters, they tend to have quite a high wattage, and produce a fairly large amount of nitrate unless cleaned relatively often. After some ver basic reasearch today I was thinking of using a couple of large Aquaclears with sponges over the intakes (cleaned daily) and a 1500l/hr powerhead to provide current.

In terms of power consumption compared to turnover, 2 fluval 405 will use 40 watts and create about 1700 l/hr of current depending on how clogged they are.
2 Aquaclear300's at 5 watts each will create about 2000 l/hr+ depending on how clogged they are, plus a 1500 l/hr powerhead using 15 watts. 3500 l/hr only using 25 watts.
There will also be one or two air-driven sponge filters depending on how much of a "display tank" I wish to make it.
Does anyone see any potential problems with this sort of setup? Don't really wanna look at a tank full of equipment...
Also does anyone use something like a built in compartmentalized filter on a similar size tank? If I can build and install something like this myself, it might be a good way to go.
Thanks - Shaun

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 05 Oct 2006, 14:14

Hi Shaun.
My standard advice is a wet/dry filtering at a rate of 10 x tank volume/hour and a large canister filter.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 05 Oct 2006, 15:28

Shaun, I'm pretty sure there's something one of us don't understand:

I'm a bit sceptical of canisters, they tend to have quite a high wattage, and produce a fairly large amount of nitrate unless cleaned relatively often.

.

High wattage - yes, if you want to lift water as well as pump it around, the external canister filter will need a bigger/more powerfull pump than the one that is internal to the tank for that reason. However, since the filter is external to the tank, some of the cooling of the pump will be to the air rather than all of it being dissipated into the tank - what percentage depends a lot on the water temp vs. the air-temp and of course the design of the pump itself.

As to the nitrate, it shouldn't matter what type of filter you have how much nitrate you end up with - unless your biological filtration isn't working right and you end up with ammonia/nitrite instead of nitrate, which I doubt you wish for... Nitrate comes from the breakdown of proteins (which makes ammonia and is then converted to nitrate) - most of which comes from the food you put in the tank unless something strange is going on in the tank.

Or have I missed something here?

--
Mats

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 05 Oct 2006, 17:23

I was struck by the same thing as Matt. In reef keeping , for example, wet/dry filters are sometimes called "nitrate factories" which indeed, they are, but reefers have the option of skimming organics before they are subjected to the nitrogen cycle. We do no have that luxury in freshwater tanks and therefore a well oiled filter should produce nitrates commensurate with the bioload or something is seriously out of whack regardless of the filtration method. That is why regular water changes of a minimum of 50% a week are necessary to keep nitrates from building up to unacceptable numbers. In pleco tanks where the fish happen to produce large amunts of waste often incompletely digested, even more frequent and larger water changes are neccessary to stay ahead of the curve of nitrate accumulation. There is no magic filter or method of denitrification that replaces water changes.
The canister filters are among the most cost efficient designs to operate, The cheap hang on the back outside filters don't even come close. Contrary to popular belief the miniature RBC(rotating bio contactor wheel) are too small to really delivery what the basic design is capable of due to scaled down size of the RBC to fit in the little box. They work great when their surface area can be measured in ft2 rather than in2. Therefore the two best filtration systems availble to aquarists are the canisters and the wet/dry drip/sump designs.

Shaun · Post by **Shaun** » 05 Oct 2006, 23:50

I have had a variety of different filters running on tanks with similar bioloads (and similar fish) water changes done same time/same amount etc, and those using canisters always end up with a higher nitrate reading...I can't exactly give any scientific proof, but the tests I've done were enough to convince me

I generally maintain all the tanks at the same time, change the same amount of water (say 40 Lts changed 4 times a week on 250Lt tanks), and I've gotten the same result on several occasions: Canisters producing large amounts of nitrate. If someone can explain it to me I would appreciate it.

Mat, I'm not worried about higher wattage pumps producing heat and heating the tank up. I'm worried about power consumption! Australia burns coal to generate electricity, so I like all my devices low-wattage. I'm lucky my current house is generally pretty warm in winter and cool in summer so aquarium heaters aren't usually on much. In other considerably colder houses I've lived in, I had to insulate the tanks to cut down on the amount electricity heating them uses. Not really worried about how much my power bill costs me dollar-wise, if I couldn't afford it I wouldn't keep fish, but considering how much air pollution generating electricty produces, I feel I should do something to help cut it back. After all, clean air=clean water for fish

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 06 Oct 2006, 00:43

I'm reaching here so bear with me. The wet/dry filters do off-gas some ammonia. Not as much as the makers' boast but some. That means slightly less ammonia may not be entering the nitification cycle. Also because wet/dry filters operate at very oxygenated levels the biota growing n them are possibly sequestering nitrates within the organisms which as long as they are alive, is enhancing the use of nirogenous wastes.
The canister filters have the bad design in the sense that aquarists may forego cleaning them as often as they should. Their manufactures make much of the "fact" that they can go 3 or 4 months between cleanings which is, IMO, too long. A canister running past it's optimum cleaning date is just recirculating the nitrates and is no longer as efficient.
The biota inside the canister is not as diverse or is made op of species more tolerant of higher nitrate levels. The tank will appear visibly clean yet may be loaded with nitrates. This is likely to occur especially if you are using activated carbon(AC). AC hides many ills. It removes the "yellowing" that would give you a more quickly observable indicator that your filter needs cleaning. For a variety of reasons I do not use AC unless it is for a specific need to remove traces of medications left after making water changes to reduce residual medication.
There is no flaw per se in the designs of the filters, both are good methods to use, canister or wet/dry. I actually use both in my planted Heckel discus tank. It is set up with the back third consisting of a 3 inch high planter box and the front 2/3 has only a single layer of fine gravel to barely conceal the bare bottom. The system contains 100 gallons and I change 75 gallons of water every third day.
In terms of energy consumption the wet/dry is powered by a MagDrive #9.5. 950gph at zero head, 93 watts. The wet/dry system has to pump a 40 inch head which means I am running an actual 850gph through the tank. The Eheim I use is the #2217 which uses about 30 watts to pump 265gph. By design the Eheim is pumping at zero head.
Regardless of how aquarists filter their aquarium water the key things to remember is to clean your filters as frequently as the bioload demands and that frequent large water changes are your best tool to keep the waste concentrations as low as possible. As the old adage says, " The solution to pollution is dilution."
In terms of watts per gph you can see that they use about the same amount of power

Shaun · Post by **Shaun** » 06 Oct 2006, 02:27

Thanks for that Larry

I always made sure to clean my canisters monthly and still saw elevated nitrate. Tanks running my home-made trickle filters or air-driven filtration always had a lower level. I made sure to setup the canisters with plenty of surface agitation though. Never used carbon or any other absorbers...
Cleaning canisters was such a hassle too. These days most of my tanks have large Aquaclear filters and I squeeze out the pre-filters almost daily and wash out the filter itself, scrub all the piping etc every month. Takes about 2 minutes! I back up these filters with large air-driven sponges, which are squeezed out bout every 2 weeks.
If I can get my tank drilled and have a weir installed I may set up a wet dry, seems like a good option for a display tank.
Shaun

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 06 Oct 2006, 03:04

Shaun,
You'll never regret going with the wet/dry. Don't hesitate to make or use one twice as big as manufactures'suggest. Your fish will thank you and except for water changes you can be more laid back about filter maintenance.