The hybrid Syno thread

[unblinded]

I stumbled across this video today and thought I would share it for those who might not have seen it. This seemed like a good place to put it. Some of these crosses make no sense to me. In some cases the offspring look awful. The short bodied Synos are just gross. I never could get the video to post so I just posted the URL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5ZhfJzB2DE




*mod edit: introduced youtube tags

[Richard B]

Great spot unblinded - some interesting detail as it would appear 2nd & 3rd generation hybrids are being produced. I'm not sure if this means that hybrids have been bred or that a certain crossbreed has been crossed with a different crossbreed etc

Certainly the right place to post so people can be educated

[racoll]

In light of the recent hybrid syno discussion here, we will now try to get some more info into the cat-elog.

The newest results are in, and we now have maternal species IDs on all the hybrids myself and Richard collected (assuming of course that the IDs of the fishes in GenBank are correct).

This one (RC0582) was

Synodontis nigrita

. Not sure if this hybrid is in the cat-elog.

This one (RC0698) was

Synodontis ocellifer

. Seems to match

Synodontis sp_hybrid(8)

, I think.

IMGP0509.JPG (47.14 KiB) Viewed 67942 times

[racoll]

These were

Synodontis decorus

. Matches

Synodontis sp_hybrid(5)

.

RC0428

RC0699

IMGP0547.JPG (54.52 KiB) Viewed 67942 times

[racoll]

Also

Synodontis decorus

, but this time matching

Synodontis sp_hybrid(9)

.

RC0616

RC0703

IMGP0540.JPG (52.77 KiB) Viewed 67942 times

[racoll]

If it's definitely a hybrid, it comes from

Synodontis petricola

(or quite possibly

Synodontis lucipinnis

):

RC0696.

IMGP0531.JPG (54.31 KiB) Viewed 67942 times

[racoll]

This was

Synodontis schall

. Matches

Synodontis sp_hybrid(2)

.

RC0701.

IMGP0513.JPG (58.02 KiB) Viewed 67941 times

[racoll]

Again,

Synodontis schall

. Also matches

Synodontis sp_hybrid(2)

, but with denser spots.

RC0702.

IMGP0501.JPG (54.18 KiB) Viewed 67941 times

[racoll]

These were

Synodontis eupterus

. Two possible matches here.

Synodontis sp_hybrid(1)

RC0569

RC0384

Synodontis sp_hybrid(4)

RC0700

IMGP0521.JPG (49.49 KiB) Viewed 67941 times

[racoll]

These two were also

Synodontis eupterus

.

RC0329

RC0583

[racoll]

Now it gets a bit more interesting here. This one came out as a possibly undescribed syno close to

Synodontis obesus

. Not what you would expect, as the common species tend to be the maternal lineage. Is it really a hybrid?

RC0697.

IMGP0556.JPG (53.83 KiB) Viewed 65235 times

[racoll]

Here's the full ID tree if anyone wishes to take a look.

[Marc van Arc]

Subject: -1
Effort, dedication & knowledge: + 10

But I'd rather say:
Rupert, despite the fact that I do not like the subject, I think you have made some terribly good and informative postings.

Imho everyone who loves fish should have a look at the short bodied Synos in the video at the top of this page. And if you indeed love fish, do not buy!
No demand = no more intentionally deformed Frankenfish.

[racoll]

Thanks Marc.

Now, once we have agreed that these hybrids match the ones in the cat-elog, I can add the data.

[Shane]

Great job on the research.
-Shane

[Jools]

Now, once we have agreed that these hybrids match the ones in the cat-elog, I can add the data.

Just caught up with this awesomeness. I agree with the exception of RC0696 and RC0697 that they should be added to the cat-elog. I wonder if the images (from Rupert) could be added with a caption of the RC number (or some suitable moniker) and then in the ID section for that "species" that a note to the result for that species.

Jools

[Jivamukta]

Also

Synodontis decorus

, but this time matching

Synodontis sp_hybrid(9)

.

RC0616

RC0616.JPG

RC0703

RC0703.JPG

IMGP0540.JPG

I saw this earlier post and I wonder can anyone tell me what this fish in the post/pics is a hybrid of? I just picked up 2 juveniles that look pretty much exactly like this from my LFS (having decided after advice I got on here from my first post to NOT get Columbian Sharks!). I knew they were hybrids, the LFS was open about that, but they couldn't tell me what they were a hybrid of. One assistant said he thought they were a decorus/angelicus hybrid, and his colleague said he was confident they are an ornatipinnis/brichardi hybrid. They had a bit of a discussion amongst themselves about it, and the guy who said angelicus/decorus was adamant that ornatipinnis is too rare to likely have been used for hybridisation as he's not come across any ornatipinnis or ornatipinnis hybrids in at least 10 years.

I'm a little concerned about how big they are going to get as an ornatipinnis would outgrow my tank, so I wonder if an ornatipinnis/brichardi hybrid would too, if that is indeed what they actually are.

I decided to go for them as I thought they were unusual, and a nice contrast to my petricolas, and my granulosus and angelicus, even if not a true species.

[Viktor Jarikov]

I thought I'd bump it, as a peer got a hybrid under the name of shoutedeni... plus maybe someone else got something to add as it's been 2 years...

https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/foru ... st-8006503

Or might it be genuine? I don't think so but have been wrong once or twice before:

[Jools]

That looks like a S. eupterus and S. grandiops cross or thereabouts...

Jools

[Viktor Jarikov]

Find 20 differences between this frankenstein and eupterus:

[kvnbyl]

interesting. i have had had a hip replacement, two knee replacements, a shoulder replacement, lots of titanium in the spine and a pacemaker, is this what you would call me?
everything has a right to life. if it is alive it is a part of nature and therefore natural whether you like or not

[kvnbyl]

i think a more appropriate question would be: where do you draw the line. how many of the fish we consider standards were created by inbreeding or breeding with other species? 10,000 years ago? it seems to me that there are a lot of african cichlids in darwin's dreampond that are awfully and some that have evolved just to fill a niche. as far as selling them? as long as you know what you are getting into then so what? better a healthy hybrid then some of the awful stuff i see in the "we want to sell dog and cat food but will bring in some half dead fish if it will get you in the door" stores

[Viktor Jarikov]

To me, the line is clear. If it is made by nature / God, without interference of man, it is valid and worth keeping and studying, even naturally occurring hybrids. You are a valid species, Homo sapiens, medically, not genetically, corrected for your ailments which is wonderful that our medicine can do this for us.

There is an ethical line everywhere, in every branch of human activity including medicine and "progress"... and including our hobby. To different people it differs, because it depends most of all on their view of life, its origin, and its purpose.

To me, the fact that people produce these hybrids is unethical. To you, may be not. And it's fine to disagree and be different. It's not the animal's fault and it deserves all the love and care as any other "valid" creature. However, our attitude towards their production and the consequences thereof can differ.

[kvnbyl]

but when you put two fish, male and female in to a tank to try to get them to spawn you are interfering in nature's process, to say that naturally ocurring hybrids are ok is really cutting it close. read Darwin's Dream Pond. it's about some of the stuff we are talking about. it says fish evolve to fill a niche. some people might argue that the "creation" of a small, peaceful, beautiful syno cat is filling a niche, granted we have a hand in it but still if it gets more people to keep fish and there is a natural supply of the original species for people who want the pure form what's the harm? better than some of the stupid things that have been done, i.e. introducing tilapia into one of the rift lakes to feed railroad workers, what a disaster that turned out to be

[racoll]

if it gets more people to keep fish and there is a natural supply of the original species for people who want the pure form what's the harm?

But there isn't really a supply any more. Hybrid Synodontis are in every pet store I go to, but the wild types are extremely hard to find these days. I remember in the early 90s every store sold some wild synos. I would rather my money went to a fisherman in the Congo than to a Czech breeder that produces fish that I don't find interesting.

I think the point is, why, if they are going to the effort of breeding these fish for the trade do they produce these hybrids and not just the real thing?

[kvnbyl]

i can think of some reasons, they are more attractive has to be at the top. they are cheaper to produce, they handle shipping better, they are more disease resistant. i'm not kidding myself. they have to be making more money because these are attractive fish but i think there's room for everyone. they are a major concern here but hardly the only examples, fancy goldfish, angel fish, most live bearers, and of course the (extremely attractive parrot cichlid heh heh)

[racoll]

i can think of some reasons, they are more attractive has to be at the top. they are cheaper to produce, they handle shipping better, they are more disease resistant.

Well the attractiveness is subjective of course. Being cheaper to produce I knew about (breeding with a female of high fecundity), but I did not know they are hardier and handle shipping better. Is this a fact, or just an assumption?

[kvnbyl]

i asked a local retailer who deals with mostly high end fish and he said it is his impression (not fact ) that the hybids are hardier which would lend to them being easier to ship and better at surviving the shipping however i know of no hard statistics

[kvnbyl]

plus the fact that they are so pretty has a lot to do with it to. don't know 'bout cross the pond but here there was this trend some years ago that if you decorated a tank with corals and put in really colorful african cichlids people would assume that you had the expertise to maintain a real salt water tank. to me this says a lot of why people want the hybdids - they are pretty and they are a "new look" designer catfish in a sense i guess. i mean that's the way i see it going. not sure about over there but glow-in-the-dark fish are pretty popular right now. now there is a real frankenstein

[Viktor Jarikov]

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