Big plecs for big tankmates?

[Flyfisher]

Are there any plecs you know of that could compete and be ok with my dollars? I'm kind of hoping they'll slow down at feeding time when they get larger. One guy told me his noticeably slowed down at about 5 inches. Which is probably in about a months time lol
I am still new to this and always open to suggestions, especially when it comes to tankmates. But they have to be a fish that has some appeal, be that in looks or in behaviour. I thought about mixing angels with dollars, but they don't really do it for me and I was feeling pressure from the missus to have something more "colourful" I think geo redheads are a better option but I'm still considering a large school of good sized serpae tetras for colour. I have a month or three to decide on all this but gaining knowledge and opinions here is so valuable and very much appreciated!
Cheers

[wrasse]

IMO serpaes are not community fish.
Why don't you spend some time reading through the threads on this site. You'll find all you need to know, can't say more than that.....

[MatsP]

I wouldn't mix pictus cats into that sort of tank. It may be fine, but you don't need any MORE food competition in there - it's going to be hard enough to get the food past the silver dollars to the geos and plecos, without having some other fish fighting over it as well. If they were eating completely different things perhaps, but I think you'd want to get the same food to the geophagus as the pictus will eat.

As to plecos that compete well, there is not much in that way. It's more a case of making sure that the right type of food gets to the right fish. Silver dollars will not be able to eat large chunky sinking food (e.g. Novo Pleco XL - which as the name hints is a large algae wafer variety) - they are not bottom feeders. Likewise, of you get food that is fairly fine and sinks quickly - carnivore catfish granules and such, it will suit the geophagus well.

Plecos can also be fed either vegetable or meaty things on a skewer or similar.

I too think that Serpae tetra aren't good community fish. There are other fish that will do well in that sort of setting - lemon tetras, colombian tetras and several others.

--
Mats

[wrasse]

Mats is spot-on. And the skewered food is a great idea. I have to say, my myleus also ate off the bottom - greedy gits!
I was thinking myleus + pims only. If you had the plecs in there with them as well, they wouldn't get a look-in.

[apistomaster]

Your Black Bar Myleus are cool looking fish and it's true that they will be happiest in as large a group as you can afford to keep in your tank. I do think having at least 6 would be better than less. More are sure to look and act more naturally but you do have to make trade offs if you are to keep minimum sized groups of multiple species.

It isn't always a good idea to keep small plecos species like L134 with larger species but L134 like Peckoltia sabaji are more outgoing than Hypancistrus species and will be able to hold their own with medium sized species(IMO) like L128 or L200 and the Geophagus but it wouldn't hurt to keep a group of 5 or 6 L134 if you can.

Sounds like you are going to have a really nice SA fish display community tank.
I would probably cut back or add enough to have about 6 each of most of the species you listed.
Your plecos will exhibit more of their natural social behavior when kept in half dozen groups and come out more than if you merely had 2 of each.

[Flyfisher]

Wrasse, you wouldn't believe how much Reading I've done in the last 6 months or so, but as I said, I'm still a newbie so will continue to read and read some more. The Internet is a wonderful thing but where it falls down is q person can write something in a knowledgeable fashion on a professional looking website and then the whole world starts believing it. I'm swayed by what I read but not immediately convinced every time. That's why this is a free forum, not a chargeable advice website. I value everything guys like yourself offer here, and already I know that this forum has many knowledgeable minds. Not all do by the way. But taking serpaes as an example, I was put off by the things I read 'fin nipping' but recently spoke with a guy who has a large school in a 4ft tank with his 6 geo redheads and a few others. Said he's never seen or experienced what everyone warned him of. I reserve judgement as yet but would love to hear from someone who has negative experience. As sure you know, there's a reason fin nipping happens in one tank and not another, it isn't black and White. One thing is for sure though, serpaes are a good looking fish and have a profile which would make them harder to eat when tanked with dollars of a decent size.

Matsp,
tomorrow I'm off to try buy some of that food for plecs. Wish me luck, I asked in MA locally about food for plecs that dollars couldn't pick up and they offered me regular wafers!
My dollars feed more off the bottom than midwater, but they know that pellets and wafers and mussel and prawn and sunflower seeds all sink and flakes float around but they ain't enough for them.
I wouldn't add pictus with plecs, it was a suggestion if plecs wouldn't work, but I really don't want this to be the case as I really have grown to like plecs and will do all I can to make sure they get enough food, but would hate to fail at that, you understand? They exist in the wild, so there must ne choices and actions I can take to make keeping them togethr in my living room possible.
I need to keep trying different foods both meaty and veg on my little feeding posts, but so far the only food plec tucks into that dollars don't devour is cucumber.
I do like columbian red/blue tetras, beautiful fish! I have lemons in with them now
cheers.

[apistomaster]

Like most fish, Serpae Tetras maybe a very poor fish to keep with some fish but fine with others.
When it comes right down too it they are like miniature Piranhas.
However, I have seen 10"+ Pygocentrus nattereri, Red Breasted Piranhas, living together with large Plecos and Cichlids in very large tank without any particular problems since the Piranhas were always kept well fed and there was plenty of space for all the fish. These Piranhas would spawn regularly and they would damage any fish unwise enough to intrude into their nesting area.
The owner raised only a fraction of the total of fry these 10 breeders produced and often had 100's of 1" Piranhas for sale at $2.98 each until the state laws changed. His breeders spawned for over a decade and he kept a few dozen from one of their last spawns and is growing them out. They are about 6" now.

It is a relative thing. Serpaes are a very poor choice if you planned to keep them with Angelfish but they are fine with active short fin fish and most plecos.

[MatsP]

You are right, individual fish will behave differently. And yes, you find all sorts of advice on different websites - some good, some bad, some more correct than other sites.

As you say, having a non-payment forum encourages people to contribute for the right reasons, and you get all sorts of members, from all walks of life.

--
Mats

[apistomaster]

One of the nice thing about catfish information compared to say, Discus, is that there are so many species that it is nearly impossible for much mythology to develop and we mostly share what we actually know or have discovered. Not so much recycling of "urban myths" about how one should keep and breed them. Some aspects of fish keeping are plagued with dogma.

[Flyfisher]

Hi Apistomaster,
thanks for your comments. I'm really keen to add more myleus when I have this bigger tank, and if I add a group of say 8 geo redheads, what numbers of what plecs do you suggest I go with? The 1 L134 I have could stay in the tank it's in, or as you suggest, it could go in the larger tank and join some other little leopard frogs. This sounds great to me, but would you say that should be it for plecs? Could I add others or could I opt out of l134s and choose a group of other plecs? Any suggestions please? I have mentioned a few I like but if others are worth considering shout up.
Cheers.

P.s. I'll ask you in another thread about your flyfishing for trout I flyfish for many species. Love it!

Just read your next post, it's great to hear things like that, thanks. Like I said earlier, the serpaes were an idea, as I really like them, but if I went ahead and things didn't work out, there's always an answer to a problem. Another tank lol

[apistomaster]

I think you would be best off choosing a group of L128 or L200 and save the L134 for another tank containing smaller species.
The L134 could be squeezed out by the presence of the larger plecos and other fish which may cause them to hide more.
OTOH, I have seen tanks with large and small pleco species where they all came out and were very active at feeding time.
Impossible to predict how a given collection of fish will behave without resorting to a lot of generalities and qualifiers.

[Flyfisher]

If you guys have managed to convince me that 1 group is better than 2 pairs, then L128 and/or L200s would be a nice group. I think in a larger tank I'd prefer this over a group of L134.
I do however, really like the L124. But according to stats this fish grows quite large and I think a group in this tank would be too much along with the other stock I'm hoping for. What do you think?
But I can imagine 5 or 6 fish ranging from blue to yellow depending on what I find at the time.
Are you in agreement with what was said earlier, that redhead geos are the best choice over satanoperca or larger geos for an addition to my group of myleus schomburgki? I guess I'd be thinking 8 redheads or 5 larger eartheaters. But how do you think the latter would work?
Cheers

[wrasse]

I have to say, I keep coming back to this thread bcs you are considering some of the fish I really like and have some experience of.
You already know how the myleus behave as you already have 6 and you might add more.
I've not kept red-head geos but they are beauties and peaceful and you often see them in shops bcs they're colourful. As you say, the red-heads will keep your missus happy...
I have kept some Satanoperca - of this family I'd recommend 6 Jurupari or Leucosticta. The others such as Daemon (temp required= 86deg) are best kept in less 'busy' tanks bcs they need the highest quality water and lots of small food to thrive long-term.
My myleus lived happily at 80-82deg, which also suited my Geo Proximus. I also provided good aeration for these active fish. This I believe would also suit your plecos.
I've not kept the plecos you are considering, but as you know - getting enough food down to them is the issue. The skewer idea sound good (while the myleus and geos are busy going after other food).

[Flyfisher]

I can't help loving the rehead choice but also keep wondering about other geos and satans.
I've worked out from lots I've read that the 2 Satanoperca you mentioned are probably the best bets, so yes, that would be the fish I'd choose from these, should I ever take that route, although I feel it's much more likely that the redheads will win here.
Have you seen the Daemon in it's breeding colours though??? Wow! Cool looking fish but not for me I think. Too much decdication to one fish and lots of hard work I reckon.
Apistomaster, the suggestion of a group of 1 kind of plec is something I'm strongly considering, but I do love those L124s! Would a number of these in this tank be too much?
The one thing about the L200/L128 group idea is that I could hold 5 or 6 fish ranging from dark blue to green to yellow, and hopefully they should all feel comfortable as a group. Nice!
Serpaes keep swimming in and out of my mind, but I've plenty time to speak to others who have hopefully good or bad experience to help me decide.
The other question I will probably face, is when adding more Myleus, if I cannot find larger fish, would adding another 6 smaller guys to my group work ok? They do grow fast so in about 2 months the school would look rather normal and within an inch or 2 of eachother in size. Would the big guys accept the wee ones ok?
Matsp,
Do your L128s all come out together? You have 3 yes? What esle lives in that tank?

Cheers fellas

[MatsP]

My L128 are pretty much invisible most of the time I'm in the fishroom. I'm sure they do come out, but not if I'm there... I'd also actually expect a larger group may work better.

I've just picked up a 4ft x 2ft base, 18" tall tank (from Martin S) that I'm sort of playing with the idea of getting another two-three fish from Neil when I visit Pier on the 28th. But I've certainly not decided.

--
Mats

[apistomaster]

I think if you keep six L128 or L200 they will come out more, especially at feeding times. Many reclusive plecos are seen more when they have to compete with a larger group of their own and/or other species.
I would go with only one or the other rather than keeping them both together.
I know they have different scientific names but I am not convinced they are definitely different species.
The way they have a gradation of color from quite blue to very yellow green and intermediates as you go from the extremes of their range is suspiciously like color variations of the same species.

I think one combination that would be nice would be to get 6 of either L128/L200 and 6

Peckoltia sabaji

.

Another species that is enjoyable to keep in a group of 6 is

Sturisoma aureum

.
The Sturisoma are diurnal species so they will be active during the day when you can enjoy them. They may be kept with any of the above mentioned plecos. Despite the fact that Sturisoma like mostly a diet high in animal protein they are also excellent algae eaters and do a good job of cleaning leaves if your tank is planted as well as the glass and other surfaces.

I noticed my F1 Sturisoma aureum spawned yesterday and I am thinking about saving their spawn this time and begin the laborious task of rearing the fry. I sold most of mine down to where I only have a couple trios which breed regularly and then I have several spare males I have used in my Hypancistrus spp breeding tanks as algae eaters. They never go inside breeding caves and they don't harm small fry. I have found that keeping them this way helps to keep the Hypancistrus breeding tanks cleaner. In addition to the algae they eat, they also are helpful at cleaning up scraps of earth worm sticks.

[Flyfisher]

I do like the idea of keeping a group of either L200 or L124 but both together!? It's hard for me to picture and reckon what is a good stocking and what is too overstocked for a 6x2x2ft tank.
The list the way I'm heading at the moment is:-
9-12 myleus schomburgki, black bar silver dollars
8 geophagus sp tapajos redheads
and plecs?????

Would you really add groups of L200 & L124 ???? 6 of each!?

Thanks for the sturisoma suggestion, I could do with a decent algae eater in there, but not too sure about those prehistoric looking fellas. I did see some stripey bristlenose that I'd quite like a group of to do this job, but where does it end and how far should I go here!?
Just to throw another one in, I'd quite like a single oddball and I'm very open to suggestions for this but a black ghost knife fish is a cool looking addition I think
cheers.

[MatsP]

"stripey bristlenose" - I've never heard of any bristlenose that has stripes - there are some with squiggles on their head, but otherwise spotted.

Stocking level is so complicated that it's hard to figure exactly. A rough guide is 1" per gal or 1cm per 2 liter (it's not exactly the same thing, but it's a rough guide, so it's not that far off).

A 6 x 2 x 2 tank is approximately 150 gal, so you can keep about 150 inches (300 cm) of fish in there. However, your Myleus grow to 42 cm according to fishbase, which is a bit too large for a 6 x 2 x 2 tank. You should have a 6 x 2.5 base or so - maybe even a bit larger, considering that they are quite active fish. And 10 fish at that size is more than a 150 gallon tank would hold.

6 of P. sabajii will take up about 50 inches of "length", and similar amount for either of L200 or L128.

The red head takes up about 5" each.

Personal note: Would you mind filling out your location with a bit more detail - I don't remember from our discussions on PFK forum where you are from (if you said...)

--
Mats

[apistomaster]

If aquarium specimens of Peckoltia sabaji grew as large as their maximum size as listed in the aCt-elog I would agree but I doubt many actually grow any larger than L128/L200 for most people. I was thinking these Peckoltia would be a good species because it looks distinctly different than the "Phantom" Plecos and could be expected to reach about the same sizes. Peckoltia spp are often a little more outgoing than many other species so that factored in to my suggestion as did the Sturisoma. It can be frustrating to have a tank full of catfish that hide so much they are rarely seen.

The Myleus also rarely reach more than half their wild maximum sizes in captivity so that should be considered as well. I wouldn't add more, personally. 6 is enough for their social well being and would be more in line with the idea of avoiding extreme overstocking.

That the proposed stocking levels of large fish for this tank is becoming excessive I agree whole heartily. The numbers should be refined and some fish may have to be left out.
You want a Black ghost now, too. The Ghost is going to get a foot long within about 2 years if fed well so that is a large fish.
Use the crude length per unit measurement based on the probable maximum aquarium sizes and you should be OK. If you have to have all the fish you want then you need another tank or one that is much larger. We all have to come to terms with this perennial problem of wanting more fish but only have so much aquarium space to work with.

[MatsP]

Indeed. And we all find ourselves in the situation where we "need another tank to keep X". And most of us have probably at least once or twice though "Ah, it'll be all right with a few extra large water changes", and paid the price (never mind the price the fish paid for that).

Keeping it lightly stocked is the key to keeping fish happy.

--
Mats

[Flyfisher]

Guys,

Go easy on me please. I'm on here to talk to like minded folk with more experience, to gain knowledge and stop me making mistakes.
The tank I have set up now was researched and planned to detail and being my first, I think I did a fairly good job, knowing that down the line I'd be transferring the dollars into a larger tank. At this time the tank is working well and I've minimal reading of nitrate just prior to my weekly water changes.

The Myleus I researeched so much and never found evidence that the black bar silver dollars I liked so much (narrrow band variety) would grow much past 6 inches. They do exist in at least 2 other forms, that I've heard of and I've seen examples of another fish, the wide band Myleus schomburgki that were 12 inch plus. I'd prefer if mine did not grow this big, but if they did, I'll handle it. Rather this than not keeping such a beautiful fish that seems to have a touch of mystery surrounding it's maximum size. Point taken on the 'reaching approx half their max size when kept in aquaria' Cheers Apistomaster.

Early in this thread, during discussion I had a bit of a dig at the whole learning from the internet thing. talking of what has been described as urban myths being created so easily. I'm smiling here now guys as I re read this thread, and if I was a total newcomer who googled 1 of the fish mentioned here and read the whole thread, well, I'd be totally confused! lol

Early in my postings, I suggested as a tank stock - 6 Myleus schomburgki with a group of eartheaters, and 2 pairs of medium sized plecs.
Come on guys, I wasn't too far away from keeping stock level sensible there was I? I just needed help choosing which plecs and making sure they would be ok with these tankmates, and I was offered various help with choosing species and numbers of eartheaters, to which soon after I went toward a group of redheads.

I'm here because I care about the fish i keep and also because unlike the majority of fishkeepers; when I have an interest and want to acheive something, I want to do it well and become knowledgeable from my research and from my time building this project to completion. As well as gaining pleasure from watching the fish I house.

Let's face it, most people, (and this is still the publics perception of this hobby) start with good intentions but walk into a store and buy what looks pretty and take it all home and in a few months the tanks a stinking eyesore with regular casualties. I'm here for more than this, and would hope to be categorised with you guys as opposed to the masses.

6x2x2 is the absolute max size for my living room, and I don't have a fish house so there'll be (if I'm lucky) 1 other tank, the one I have now.

I'm aware that the inches and gallons way of working out fish stocking is a very vague formula, so going from where I am now to thinking about more larger fish in such a large tank is not as simple as it seems.

Go easy on me guys, no suggestions of me being the kind of guy to treat fish badly and make the wrong choices please. I'm here because I'm absolutely NOT that kind of person.

Cheers to you all and I hope to continue our discussions both here and in other threads wherever on this great forum.

[MatsP]

Sorry, the size I found was for Myleus schomburgki, if yours are not that species, then the size obviously will be different.

I agree that fish don't always grow to their wild size in captivity - some grow larger, some smaller.

--
Mats

[Flyfisher]

Hey matsp
my fish are myleus schomburgki. But there's so much confusion and multiple fish under the same name everywhere you look on the net! With eartheaters it is quite confusing too. Try finding or even viewing a correct geo surinamensis. And there's at least 4 different altifrons! With myleus schomburgki, there's about 3 I think. But when you search and read about 'black bar silver dollars' the common name, then so many sites quote them at maximum size of 6 inches.
I'd be very happy with 6 inches. So would my wife lol
merry Christmas. Ho ho ho!

[MatsP]

Don't know much about any of the silver dollar species to be honest, so I can only go by the info I find on web-sites.

Anything sold as G. surinamensis is almost certain to NOT be that species, but it may well be something that doesn't have a scientific name at all.

The book by Thomas Weidner called "South american Eartheaters" is a good reference for hobbyist purposes.

--
Mats

[wrasse]

[quote="MatsP"]Don't know much about any of the silver dollar species to be honest, so I can only go by the info I find on web-sites.

Well that's revealing. Earlier on you gave a fare bit of detailed knowledge re- behaviour of these fish.

Flyfisher. You are dealing with fish that I didn't have experience of, until several years into the hobby - most people start with guppies!
When you get your 6' tank I'm certain you already know to build up the population gradually, so that the filtration adapts to the number of fish. The inch per gallon is one way to judge fish numbers, but I reckon you will reach the point when you will 'see' that your tank has reached its fish capacity - it just looks 'in balance'. You will have plenty of activity at all levels with the myleus and geos, the Lno-cats are the 'icing on the cake.' IMO - 6 to 8 of each species (8 myleus) would work well in this tank, plus room for 1 or 2 extra fish ( you never know what you might come across...).
Go 4 it!

[Flyfisher]

Cheers Wrasse, with the tank I have now, my first ever, the guy who gave it to me, a very good friend and experienced fishkeeper gave exactly that advice. He said that I'd know when it's stocked full and to do it slowly until I feel it is right. I was planning the stock for this tank for ages. If I get only 3 corys, I could get a pair of rams, if I use lemons instead of columbians I could add 1 or 2 more dollars, etc etc etc. Trying to keep within the inches and gallons formula. Then I find there's more than 1 formula around! Great! And a formula for a tank with better than necessary filtration or a formula for a tank with suitable filtration. Jesus! It could drive anyone nuts couldn't it!?
But yes, slow stocking and time spent viewing and evaluating the next additions is the key. It took me 8 weeks to get my tank fully stocked, and that was with all young small fish.
I think you're right with numbers, 6to8 myleus and 6to8 redheads. Then I need to decide what plecs and numbers. I'm feeling the need to house an algae crew though, so it may be some bristlenose and just 1 pair of one L number. Plenty time to make that decision though, as well as others.
Go for it I will.
Cheers:-)