L104-what to do to suit them (details in thread)

[DJ-don]

just found out i can get the tunze from my lfs so it should be in a few days or so!!

[racoll]

DJ-don,

Your Panaque tank looks much better now.

so far i plan to:
let the male settle in for 2 weeks or so with normal weekly water changes with vacuum
after he has settled in,chosen his cave etc., i will stop feeding my fish and let them be but removing water by vacuuming, this will take about 2 weeks
then after the 2 weeks im going to fill up the tank slowly every day with cooler water than the main tank with normal dechlorinater (dont have access to RO water) but if it does rain i will use the rain water to fill up the tank OR when it rains just fill the whole tank up slowly with colder water
then see what happens there
how does that sound?

Unfortunately, these fish will not follow your timetable. I think you will be rushing them!

Conditioning and familiarity with captivity are more important than changing water parameters in many cases.

Replace weeks with years, and we're being more realistic here! I am being flippant, but you'll be more likely to have success just leaving them be. I would let them settle in and get used to each other, and maybe this time next year, think about triggering a spawn. Most likely, if they are in good health, they will spawn without intervention.

You notice many of the successful breeders have multiple breeding tanks. This increases potential for success, as you can work on many species at the same time. Waiting for just one tank, you may be waiting a very long time! Don't let this put you off though, as everyone has to start somewhere!

You should also trawl the forum posts and make a note of all the dates when P. maccus or other Llanos spp. have been spawned. Many wild-caught fish appear to be strongly seasonal and will only breed at certain times of year, corresponding to changing seasons back in their native range; they seem to have an internal clock.

[DJ-don]

wow
i never knew these fish were so hard to breed-i guess it varies with other people!

the tank right now actually has more wood than that picture-i took the picture before i added more wood

right now im lookd for caves maade out of driftwood or something like that for the male

and he is one heck of a hairy male!!

is there a certain vege that these fish would really love?
i was thinking maybe sweet potatoe

so should i do what mats does? just let them be and something will happen?

right now im also looking for more females too

[MatsP]

wow
i never knew these fish were so hard to breed-i guess it varies with other people!

It does vary - fish are individuals for one thin, and second, the conditions for the fish does vary.

<...>
and he is one heck of a hairy male!!

That's why I say "if you have a well established and conditioned male, you know it". They are NOT hard to tell apart if they are in good condition.

is there a certain vege that these fish would really love?
i was thinking maybe sweet potatoe

I have two experiences here:
1. They do seem to prefer wood when in a tank with lots of wood - I have put all sorts of veg in my tank, and it just rots.
2. If they do not find enough wood, they seem to like the skin of Courgette/Zucchini.
By all means, try a few different things. Your fish are not my fish...

so should i do what mats does? just let them be and something will happen?

right now im also looking for more females too

I'm a "lazy" breeder - I try to do my best to keep the fish in good conditions [not always successfully], and if they breed that's a bonus. If they don't, then as long as they are happy, I'm not too worried.

--
Mats

[DJ-don]

i was wondering do L104 actually live in fast current areas?

i looked orinoco drainage in google and it came up with upper orinoco.

from wikipedia
Upper Orinoco—242 kilometres (150 mi) long, from its headwaters to the rapids Raudales de Guaharibos, flows through mountainous landscape in a northwesterly direction

is that where they live?

[MatsP]

i was wondering do L104 actually live in fast current areas?

I don't think they live in VERY fast current, but it won't be still water either.

--
Mats

[DJ-don]

if they do manage to breed, and the eggs get kicked out, would the eggs get killed because of the high flow rate?
in that case should iput the caves pointing up a bit so the eggs dont kicked out. and would it be safe to leave the fry after they leave the caves in the tank too??
what do you do geoff?

[MatsP]

Janne says that it's better to harvest the fry and put it in a breeding basket or similar - to make sure they get enough food if nothing else.

Eggs kicked out is never a good thing, so making sure the cave is leaning towards the "head end", it would be good.

--
Mats

[racoll]

Have you installed the Tunze yet DJ-don?

You'll probably find it is not as powerful as you think. It moves a lot of water, but the jet is quite broad.

You should position it about an inch or two below the surface. I would be very surprised if it sucked up eggs.

[DJ-don]

Have you installed the Tunze yet DJ-don?

You'll probably find it is not as powerful as you think. It moves a lot of water, but the jet is quite broad.

. I would be very surprised if it sucked up eggs.

im installing the tunze tomrrow to pick it up from the lfs

You should position it about an inch or two below the surface

should the pump be facing a certain direction or just any way i would like it to?

Janne says that it's better to harvest the fry and put it in a breeding basket or similar - to make sure they get enough food if nothing else.

okay thanks but i generally dont like disturbing my male or something like that but i was planning to do that with my next male bn spawning to practice on my artificial hatching

and the plus is that the slate caves in the Pac. Macs. tank do have lids so i can remove the eggs with ease (that is if they do breed in the slate caves)and in my breeding bn tank too!

[MatsP]

I wasn't suggesting you rob the male of the eggs/early stage fry - the male is much better at looking after the fry than you or I. But if you can get the fry just before they are released into the tank [or just after, if all else fails], then that's a good thing.

--
Mats

[DJ-don]

I wasn't suggesting you rob the male of the eggs/early stage fry - the male is much better at looking after the fry than you or I. But if you can get the fry just before they are released into the tank [or just after, if all else fails], then that's a good thing.

--
Mats

thanks mats

is best to remove them into a separate 30 litre plastic box for fry rearing or would a a fry saver do?
like this one? its a fry saver i made for my bn fry to moniter their growth


the only dodgy thing about this is that the sucton cups are falling off i made the centre pipe area to pu a spong on it to make a mini filteration system but i found it tedious in the end and use it to hold in veges that floated

[Liquid_Pyro]

Looking good Dj don...I think i might attempt this as well this weekend (setting up a separate tank for my L-104's...either that or set the tank up for my my cory cats I haven't made up my mind...

keep me updated on your progress.

[DJ-don]

hey guys

actually getting the tunze on friday or sunday after the misunderstanding with me and the lfs keeper

but i have 3 LG6 whiptails in my blue rams breeding tank
and i dont think there is that much space for them. i was wondering if i can put them in this tank?
all 3 of them i think are adult

would they mind the current?

the other inhabitants atm is:
2xL397 still young
2xPeppermint ancistrus 1 juvenile 1 nearly adult
2xL104 both fully grown
2x3cm albino bn which will be moved out later on


would that be an overload of bottom dwellers? because so far there isnt much fight happening between them as i see. only fighting i see is when my male L104 drives others off which isnt often.

[DJ-don]

anyone who can asnwer the above question?


thanks

[MatsP]

I think the current will be fine. The amount of bottom feeders may be a problem.

--
Mats

[Shane]

i was wondering do L104 actually live in fast current areas?

i looked orinoco drainage in google and it came up with upper orinoco.

from wikipedia
Upper Orinoco—242 kilometres (150 mi) long, from its headwaters to the rapids Raudales de Guaharibos, flows through mountainous landscape in a northwesterly direction

is that where they live?

This is the confusion with the "Distribution" function (despite all of Mats' hard work on it). P. maccus is not found in the Rio Orinoco, it is found in the Orinoco drainage. The drainage is fed by everything from black water rivers with no measurable hardness originating in the Guyana shield and jungle lowlands to whitewater rivers that are born in the Andes. The Cat-eLog entry does seem contradictory
"P. maccus is found throughout the Orinoco drainage in the Venezuelan and Colombian great plains known as the Llanos."
It is not found "throughout the Orinoco" its distribution is limited to a handful of whitewater rivers that originate in the Andes, cross the llanos, and eventually feed in to the Orinoco. You need to be looking for information on the Rios Arauca, Apure and Portuguesa to see where these fish come from. A quick Google Images search will turn up 1,000s of photos of these rivers. There are also collecting articles and photos on the site as well as several threads discussing the spawning of this sp.
The amount of flow is radically different depending on the season. Many of the small rivers where I collected them could literally be jumped over in the dry season. In the wet season the same river might be 200 feet across. A good amount of flow to keep O2 levels high and help keep the tank clean is good. However, P. maccus does not need anywhere the flow levels that say Chaetostoma prefer.
As to caves for spawning, look at the sp profile in the Cat-eLog. I used the same PVC type set up I use with most loricariids. PVC is not as pretty as natural materials but does the same job.
-Shane

[DJ-don]

wow thanks for all that info shane!!

i was wondering then would the tunze then be over the top for them? like it would be more of chaetostoma tank?

[Shane]

i was wondering then would the tunze then be over the top for them?

I have no idea what a Tunze is. Can you post a link or something?
-Shane

[DJ-don]

The pump you want is the Tunze Turbelle nanostream 6025, available here and here.

When combined with the filter, you will have ample circulation at around 17.6x per hour.

rupert mentioned it before on the first page of the thread
just click the url and you can see the picture of the powerhead

[Shane]

Ok, went back through the entire thread. Racoll and Geoff's advice on the very first page is right on the mark. Their two postings really say all that needs to be said. If you want to set up a specific breeding tank you will need to dismantle what you already have. There is no place for the deep substrate or plants and you will need a lot more wood and water movement.
If you want to keep the tank as a general community tank, I would not add the Tunze as it will create too much flow for a deep substrate planted aquarium. Personally, I would never keep woodeaters in a planted type tank as they create too much waste to stay on top of. Heck even in a nearly substrate-less tank with great filtration and water movement they are still pain to clean up after.
If your real goal is to breed these fish, I would carefully heed the advice offered above. If not, keep your tank like it is and just enjoy the Panaque, but do not count on them spawning.
-Shane

[MatsP]

Note to self: Add Shane's more detailed description as to "distribution".

--
Mats

[DJ-don]

Ok, went back through the entire thread. Racoll and Geoff's advice on the very first page is right on the mark. Their two postings really say all that needs to be said. If you want to set up a specific breeding tank you will need to dismantle what you already have. There is no place for the deep substrate or plants and you will need a lot more wood and water movement.
If you want to keep the tank as a general community tank, I would not add the Tunze as it will create too much flow for a deep substrate planted aquarium. Personally, I would never keep woodeaters in a planted type tank as they create too much waste to stay on top of. Heck even in a nearly substrate-less tank with great filtration and water movement they are still pain to clean up after.
If your real goal is to breed these fish, I would carefully heed the advice offered above. If not, keep your tank like it is and just enjoy the Panaque, but do not count on them spawning.
-Shane

thanks shane
if you read before i said that i wasnt even thinking about breeding these until my friend offered the fish

but i have gotten rid most of the plants except the anubias and java fern and one ambulia plant which i totally forgot about!!

and i still plan to add the tunze and more wood to the tank

[DJ-don]

the tunze is taking forever to come to australia so its going to take another 2 weeks to get here!

but i have a freind who has a heap of collection of pumps and i have asked him for one

but do you think a movement of 1400 litres per hour or 2000 litres or below good enough?

[krazyGeoff]

do you think a movement of 1400 litres per hour or 2000 litres or below good enough?

Well it is 1400 or 2000 litres an hour more than you have now, so I think they will like it