Panaque sp L191 : let's go for a spawning tentative

[ElTofi]

the big one hasn't left the cave from Tuesday evening... even during WC... sounds good, no ?

a big activity around these two caves, one being closely defended agains any other intrusion, the other being "visited" by what I suppose to be a 2nd male... this second one begins to have very thick pectoral and interopercular odontodes growing...

don't even know if I have a female in that group... but considering the difference of behaviors and odontodes growing, I'm quite confident for the next months...

in any way, this rainy season moved deeply their behaviors and habits... and that's already a whole story...

[panaque]

Very interesting. I hope it develops further

[PseudaSmart]

Sounds like good progress. Does the larger one leave the cave at night? I have been fooled before where they cave all day but leave about an hour after the lights go out. You mentioned one trying to get into the cave. Is there enough room for two.

[rob rensen]

Nice..keep up the good work

[ElTofi]

to my knowledge (and with evening and early morning checks) the "big one" hasn't left the main cave from Tuesday evening... I guess he must get out sometime during the night cause he goes on producing feeces... but I don't see him out of his cave at all...

considering volume into the caves... these caves are the same I used back in 2009-2010 with Pseudacanthicus sp Scarlet L25... and those babies were much bigger than the Panaque... My L25 male was 45 cm TL and the female a little less than 40 cm... and they fitted well into the cave...

[ElTofi]

rainy season : day 30

the 2 caves are definitely clean... 2 males got busy cleaning and venting into them for a whole week...

I'm pretty sure there's nothing else to say, as I didn't see (at no time) 2 fish in the same cave...

but it's kind of hopeful behaviors...

I'll try to get a GoPro shooting of the males venting in the tubes these next days...

[PseudaSmart]

Good first controlled attempt. Hopefully your notes will help you think of something different to try next time.

To me the methodical process is far more rewarding then beginners luck
Of course I am still waiting to personally experience beginners luck
(Hope I chose the right smilies).

Jim

[ElTofi]

After 34 days of daily routine with +50% Water Changes, I took a break on frequency and volume... I change 30% on a 2-3 days basis...

What I know for sure :

1. the month of rainy season made a visible effect on odontodes grow rate
2. 3 individuals are now "equipped" with very thick, sharp, massive pectoral odontodes, and interopercular odontodes begin to get very long... even if not that thick and dense as the pectoral's
3. 2 other individuals are probably females (or immature fish). no sign of odontode's growing
4. the 2 caves are clean, and one of them (the right one, full-facing the flow) is occupied permanently by the big one from several weeks
5. I still have 2 individuals (a very small 25 cm TL one and another +30) into the big tank, and I'll manage these next weeks to take them into the "nursery" too

that's it for the moment...

new pictures to come as soon as I'll have a moment to organize a shooting session with the GoPro inside the tank

[Narwhal72]

Thanks for passing on the information. We are all rooting for you.

I wonder if the current blowing into the cave is causing an issue. From articles that I have read and my own experience I generally arrange the current so it is perpendicular to the direction of the cave.

I am not sure if that causes a significant issue or not.

Andy

[ElTofi]

with this position of the caves, I had good result with Pseudacanthicus and Hypancistrus spp

but in any case, they do have several roots, trunks or pieces of wood with other position in the same tank... the seem to prefer this one, in the terra-cotta caves...

I'm keeping an eye on it...

[ElTofi]

right before 4th L-numbers days in Hannover, I post an update of the Panaque with this short video :



summary :

May-June-July-MidAugust : dry season, no water change, no cleaning
mid-August-September-mid-October : rainy season with 50-60% daily water changes
from mid-October : "normal" water changes, once a week, with 50-60% of new cold tap water

except for the growing rate of the odontodes on my 3 males (I guess, the 2 other individuals being shorter and without noticeable odontodes growing), nothing particular to say… I sometimes miss a heartbeat when I suddenly discover two fishes in the same cave… but most of the time, it's a territory short fight between two males… and it last a few minutes…

I'm keeping on trying this… at least until spring 2016… let's see what happens…

btw, the Crossocheilus is 12 cm and just here to allow a size comparison

[rob rensen]

Nice shooting underwater.....just keep on trying, I'll cross my fingers

[David R]

Very interesting project, keep the updates coming, hopefully one day I'll be able to follow your footsteps with my L190! (thought I wish I'd started with more than four of them)

[ElTofi]

I had a few interesting and rich talks with other Pleco Lovers in Hannover and to quote Hans-Georg : I have to do my homework... considering my rainy season hadn't any results (except odontodes growing rate on males), I'm trying to find further meteorological informations on Colombia, Rio Caguàn

I'm not even sure if they do come from still warm waters with lots of sunken dead woods or from "open flowing" waters... and I'm not even talking about physicochemical parameters or temperature and seasonal variations... simply no idea...

I have to work it out. any help ?

[rob rensen]

It's hard to say what triggers a big panaque to breed. Most likely would be the rainy season......that the only thing I can think of.

[Jobro]

I'm not sure these guys use caves for spawning. They don't have caves in their natural habitats. Maybe they travel upstream to find caves. But maybe they spawn in hollows inside the driftwood. Most of the cavespawning plecomales will sit inside the caves all the time, even when no spawn is going on. I've been following this thread for some time and I always wondered why yours won't inhabit the caves? Maybe they are not used to caves at all, because there are no caves in their natural habitat? I have no experience with Panaques. But maybe they need more big woods (preferable with caves or hollows) or even big plants like big Anubias to spawn. I think something about their spawning must be fundamentally different from the other plecos. Why else are there no confirmed random spawnings being reported?

[CharlieM9]

Jobro,

There is one spawning report of large panaque. They used caves, not wood or plants. It's said that it is hard to find a compatible pair. As Hans said, find where your fish come from and the water parameters around there to get started. Larger plecos do not cave as much as the smaller ones in some cases because they do not have to hide to be safe from predation as much.

[Jools]

I suspect there are different approaches for different

Panaque

. I am not sure about the cave thing being based on size, but I have seen images of larger plecos who lay their eggs in holes in wood and sit on top.

Jools

[ElTofi]

Back from Hannover, I began to settle more branches and dead wood (mostly oak, alnus glutinosa and betula spp) into my L191 tank... I still have the 2 caves (which are occupied all day long each by a male)...

I'm going to add some more wood (trunks, branches, soft dead wood) and provide maximum of possibilities, in every possible way : roots, branches, caves...

I'm still fascinated by these Panaque... the two (considered by me as) males have very impressive odontodes... I'll get pictures with go pro these next days... I'm trying to find out some informations about seasonal changes and weather and precipitations around their supposed area...

anyway, feel free to comment, suggest, submit any idea...

[rob rensen]

Just keep on trying....In the panaque tanks of mine I don't have any caves....just a lot of wood on the bodem of the tank.

In my opinion big panaque's don't breed in caves....I think they are to big. I'ts just a thought óf mine......it's more likely they put their eggs in small holes in the wood.....I really don't know.

[ElTofi]

IMO, L191 are not that big Panaque... back in 2009, my Pseudacanthicus scarlet were bigger (45 cm TL for the male) and they did spawned in the caves...

If we consider Panaque schaeferi, I'd kind of agree with your feeling they don't need caves as they are indeed big enough not to bother about predators... They are definitely big Panaques... but L191 ??? not that big.

Anyway, I'm still searching for Rio Caguàn informations... I think L191 are more like "dead wood sleepers" and maybe not thrive in great-strong-clear waterflow... but it's only an idea... with no scientifical or background foundations... any help welcome.

[Jobro]

I still have the 2 caves (which are occupied all day long each by a male)...

Looks like I missed that in your prior posts, I was assuming they only went into the caves every once in a while but nothing happened and they left again. Sorry my fault.

Jobro,

There is one spawning report of large panaque. They used caves, not wood or plants.

Do you mind sharing that spawning report? I only know of Vires' Panaque Cochliodon spawning, but I'm not sure if that is a trustworthy source after all. And in his report he mentioned they spawned on wood.

[ElTofi]

Panaque cf armbrusteri has a breeding report documented in Amazonas Both in german and US editions. Unable to remember the number. I'll look for it tonight

[bekateen]

Jobro,

There is one spawning report of large panaque. They used caves, not wood or plants.

Do you mind sharing that spawning report? I only know of Vires' Panaque Cochliodon spawning, but I'm not sure if that is a trustworthy source after all. And in his report he mentioned they spawned on wood.

I believe CharlieM9 is referring to the report listed in the "Breeding" category on the CLOG page for

Panaque cf_armbrusteri`araguaia`

.

Cheers, Eric

[CharlieM9]

Jobro,

There is one spawning report of large panaque. They used caves, not wood or plants.

Do you mind sharing that spawning report? I only know of Vires' Panaque Cochliodon spawning, but I'm not sure if that is a trustworthy source after all. And in his report he mentioned they spawned on wood.

I believe CharlieM9 is referring to the report listed in the "Breeding" category on the CLOG page for

Panaque cf_armbrusteri`araguaia`

.

Cheers, Eric

Nope, actually Eltofi is the winner! It was in both issues of Amazonas. And there is even a thread somewhere on here leading up to and discussing the article a little bit. He did it in pairs and said the male would attack and bully females until he introduced the one that spawned. I believe the tank looked rather bare, a few pieces of wood and a cave or two. It's been a little while since I read the article so please take my comments on it with a grain of salt. I would expect these L191 to be roughly along the same lines as there is not a huge discrepancy in size difference, but as Hans and others have mentioned a lot of that more or less lies in environment they are found.....

Attached is a picture of what a little research can accomplish....not nearly as difficult of a species to spawn but only a few reports on them around also....

Edit....sorry the picture came out sideways, I do not know why it did...

[bekateen]

It was in both issues of Amazonas. And there is even a thread somewhere on here leading up to and discussing the article a little bit.

I was also referring to an Amazonas magazine article:

• BREEDING BREAKTHROUGH: First success with Royal Plecos, by Stephen Huang. Amazonas, volume 2, number 6 (November/December, 2013), pages 6-12.

It was the only article I was aware of. Are there others?

Cheers, Eric

[CharlieM9]

It was in both issues of Amazonas. And there is even a thread somewhere on here leading up to and discussing the article a little bit.

I was also referring to an Amazonas magazine article:

• BREEDING BREAKTHROUGH: First success with Royal Plecos, by Stephen Huang. Amazonas, volume 2, number 6 (November/December, 2013), pages 6-12.

It was the only article I was aware of. Are there others?

Cheers, Eric

Not that I know of. I did not realize the article was actually posted on PC anywhere?

[ElTofi]

mentionned, not published...

there are 2 articles on the same topic... I read the US edition one, which is very poor in informations

[bekateen]

I did not realize the article was actually posted on PC anywhere?

I did not mean that the actual article is posted on PlanetCatfish, but a citation (the info which I provided above) is listed in the "Breeding" section of the CLOG page for

Panaque cf_armbrusteri`araguaia`

.

Cheers, Eric

[CharlieM9]

mentionned, not published...

there are 2 articles on the same topic... I read the US edition one, which is very poor in informations

This is what I remember most about it also. The pictures almost told more information than the words in the US version, which probably made some people over look or feel like it falsified. All of the large plecos seem like they are a huge undertaking.

@Bekateen ah I see what you are saying. I went all the way down past that part at quick glance.