L333 possible spawn attempt!

Owch · Post by **Owch** » 30 Dec 2005, 19:03

My group of L333's (3 males + 3 females) have been getting frisky recently, with the males all scrapping at every given opportunity, and the females having a good look see.

This morning when I got up for work (04:30) a male had a female firmly pinned in a cave barely big enough for him let alone his new lady friend. They have now been in there all day (18:45) and not even ventured out for a bite to eat. So I'm figuring they are making the beast with two backs

.

Is it usual for a spawning to take this long (my BN's are usually done in 10-15min)?

I'll keep you all posted on their progress and hopefully the full account of spawn -> hatch -> growing on.

Fingers crossed

Tom

(If they do spawn, it will be a great end to a totally poop day - a sheet of ice from the back of an articulated truck came through my windscreen on the M62 on my way to work

I was doing 85mph, he was going about 60mph in the opposite direction

Brown Trouser Moment)

drpleco · Post by **drpleco** » 30 Dec 2005, 19:08

wow

are you OK? and did the truck stop?

laurab5 · Post by **laurab5** » 30 Dec 2005, 19:28

Are you fine. Good luck on the L333's. Can i get a pic of the tank setup. How big are they. Is there anything else in the tank

Owch · Post by **Owch** » 30 Dec 2005, 19:52

I was very lucky, a truck that was one my left saw what happened and slowed down to let me pull into the hard shoulder. The truck with the ice was oblivious to what was happening so just carried on.

I on the other hand had to spend 45min on the hard shoulder, in a drainage ditch, wrapped in my car ice cover - Ray Meers style, unfortunatly I didnt have any kindling so a fire was out of the question

.

Just got to wait for a replacement windscreen which is coming on Sunday, of all days.

Owch · Post by **Owch** » 30 Dec 2005, 20:01

laurab5 wrote:Are you fine. Good luck on the L333's. Can i get a pic of the tank setup. How big are they. Is there anything else in the tank

Tank is a Juwel Rio 180. Tankmates are 100 or so baby bristles and 5 blue tetras (there were 10 but 5 pegged it for reasons unknown).

Water is:

pH = 7.0
kH = ~2dKH (buffered with NaHCO3)
gH = <1
Temp = 28*C
NH3 = 0mg/l
NO2- = 0mg/l
NO3- = 10mg/l (this high due to the BN's and their ability to eat - constantly)
Water change is 20 litres (~12.5%)a day direct from a HMA filter (this only drops the tank temp by 1*C or so, so no big temp shocks - although this may explain the dead tetras)

Filtration by the standard Juwel filter (compact H) and a Fluval 304 external on a spray bar, submerged to give flow over the caves. Soon to be added after a tank rethink are 2 x 1000lph power filters on a similar setup to Whitepines but not through an under gravel, instead on 3 - 4 sponge returns hidden in slate caves at the opposite end of the tank.

Owch · Post by **Owch** » 30 Dec 2005, 20:03

Pics here - http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... light=l333

Owch · Post by **Owch** » 31 Dec 2005, 05:18

Up for work and there were eggs.!

Kana3 · Post by **Kana3** » 31 Dec 2005, 07:14

Congratulations!

Will you leave them in place to watch their development? I assume that's why the little flintstone house's all face forward.

Nice tank too.

laurab5 · Post by **laurab5** » 31 Dec 2005, 12:08

Congrats. Can you estimate how many. Leave them in the tank, even after they hatch, and then if youwant take them out after 3-4 weeks. That is my opinion. How big are the fish. And, what is the cave dimensions, cause i noticed in the picture you have more than one size of cave opening

Owch · Post by **Owch** » 31 Dec 2005, 12:57

Iâ??ve not had chance to get a good look, only that there are some orange blobs in the cave with Pops. He seems intent on stopping me looking at them and seems to cover the eggs where the torch was shining. He also warned me off with his cheek bristles, so thatâ??s a good sign that he's going to be a competent father. I think Iâ??m going to lay off getting a look in the cave and let nature take its course (but I may well get to nosey and sneak a peek).

As for cave dimensions, the two cave sizes in the tank are 6.0"x2.0"x1.5" (l x w x h) and 6.0"x1.5"x1.0".

The spawn was in the 6.0"x1.5"x1.0". Both fish are roughly 5.0" long, nose to tail. The male in question was in his favourite cave which he has trouble getting out of, its that tight. In fact, you could barely see the female when she was in there, its that small.

The Male was from the 4 original fish I purchased from a Discus dealer/breeder of all people, the female is from the other 2 I purchased from a local shop, Pier Aquatics (Plec Heaven, I could spend a fortune in there), where the owner actually caught them himself on a collecting trip.

Tom

laurab5 · Post by **laurab5** » 31 Dec 2005, 14:35

Then those dimensions are good, because that is what mine have. My L066 have 5.5x1.5.1.5 and 5.5x1.5x1.0 same as the arabesque. I am seeing tons of action between my male and female arabesque, the male is sitting with his tail out the cave, which he has never done on a consistent basis and he is finally doing so. The female hangs around the cave to. She is really fat, and eats most of the food when i drop it in the tank, so i wonder what this means, maybe she just wants to be fat, lol. Anyways, congrats on the spawn, and i hope i get one here soon. Another question, how long have you had them together, mine have been together since this past April or early May, so a good 8 months

Owch · Post by **Owch** » 31 Dec 2005, 14:59

Laurab5

I've had the complete set/colony/hareem.. together since October-ish

Tom

laurab5 · Post by **laurab5** » 31 Dec 2005, 15:18

Oh, well, congrats. I think that is very early for a spawn. Anyways, mine big male L260 is 3.25 inches and female is 3, so, they are big enough, but they each have another .5inches to go at least. My new L066 are big enough. The big male is around 5-5.5 and what i think are 2 females and eevryone else thinks are 2 females are 4.5 and 3.5.

powerfulpumpkins · Post by **powerfulpumpkins** » 31 Dec 2005, 23:28

Congrats on the spawning of L333 it always pleases me when people breed such fish which cannot be mass produced in the Far East.
Just wish a few more people managed L046'S

pp

kev · Post by **kev** » 03 Jan 2006, 10:23

Hi Tom,
Congrat's on the spawn

. I thnik mine had a go at spawning the other week, one of the male's was in a cave doing the fin waving thing, but i could'nt see deep enough into the cave as it's facing the wrong way round. I have been feeding them load's recently and the female's are proper fat

.

Kev

Owch · Post by **Owch** » 03 Jan 2006, 18:35

I was feeding mine loads as well, mainly because I have nearly 200 baby BN's in there! But the L333's are getting more than their fair share of brineshrimp, prima, algae wafers, chopped prawns - even cucumbers.

One thing I have noticed is that Dad isn't doing much fanning of the eggs, but they look OK (all orange, no white furry ones).

The spawn was only very small @ around 15-20 eggs, minus a few he's kicked out. The eggs are quite a bit larger than my Ancistrus sp.3's eggs and much more orange.

Mum is looking a little shell shocked, and deffinately slimmer, but Ive seen her having a nibble or two of some algae wafers.

Ill keep you posted.

Tom

Jon · Post by **Jon** » 04 Jan 2006, 04:54

Did you notice any issues with the width of the cave? I'm working with L333 of similar size recently obtained several tapered caves with almost identical dimensions, as I heard this specific seller and his pottery were of particularly high quality. I've used larger rectangular slate caves for king tigers for spawning (they too have been switched out into the tapered caves), but fry always seemed to find themselves out of the cave as the male (I assume) was unable to completely secure the entrance of the cave. However, now, it seems as if the female would not be able to enter the hole should she desire to breed (which has not occured, as of yet). I've talked around and heard that I'd be surprised at how flexible loricariids are, and well, I was just wondering if you noticed the female having any difficulty entering the cave during the spawn.

Owch · Post by **Owch** » 04 Jan 2006, 18:32

The male has difficulty in entering and leaving the cave, its only 1.5" wide. I didn't see the female entering or leaving the cave, and, at first, the only indication she was in there was that I couldn't find her.

After a good look round, and a double check of all the caves, I could just make out her pectoral and pelvic fins when the male moved a little, and only then as she is more brown/yellow and black compared to his white/blue and black.

All my caves are straight, and the eggs seem to be OK. Although they are not fixed to the slate and move around as the male wriggles about.

3-4 eggs were discovered on the tank floor the other day, but 1 was white anyway.

Tom

kev · Post by **kev** » 05 Jan 2006, 10:05

I sat watching mine for a while last nite when i got back from work, and the male's are scrapping quite a bit now so mabey it wont be long now.

Kev

Owch · Post by **Owch** » 05 Jan 2006, 15:23

That's what led to mine spawning. I was chatting to Neil @ Pier about what he suggested to prevent scrapping, nearly got another female aswell.

He said put in more caves and increase flow. Well, the caves are still under construction but on hold until/if these eggs hatch.

He also said scrapping was a good sign, and the female does seem to have gone for the 'bruiser' of the bunch.

Any ideas how long the eggs take to develop/hatch? Its just that they seem completely orange with no signs of eye dots or spinal formation, which is apparent very early on in the bristlenose spawns I've seen.

I think the other female has picked herself a suiter too, they were in a cave together yesterday looking frisky

Owch · Post by **Owch** » 06 Jan 2006, 12:48

Wrigglers!!!

I've just checked the cave and there are a few extra tails waving about in there. I still can't see too much, as Dad covers most of the cave and does a good job of keeping them covered.

Things are looking good

Tom

laurab5 · Post by **laurab5** » 06 Jan 2006, 13:27

Good job. I can't wait till my QA's spawn. They have been together for 8 months now. I need to get one more female that is over 3 inches.

Owch · Post by **Owch** » 06 Jan 2006, 14:27

I dont know if you are in to Discus, but most people who keep them feed them on beefheart mix. I sometimes sneek some of this in to the L333 tank and they go mad for it, it's very high in protein so may help bring them into condition.

They only get it 1 - 2 times a month, and only a little bit. Any leftovers still there after 5 minutes get sucked out. This will quickly degrade and shock your filter with NH3.

But any high protein foods will get them in to condition quicker, prawns are a good idea. I use this recipe for the L333 prawn mix.

Prawns
Spirulina powder or flake
Good quality flake food (tetra min)
Bananas
Grated carrots
Egg whites
Garlic
Huey Hung vitamins.

All this is fed through a meat grinder 2-3 times (a blender makes it too fine) then placed in sealable bags and rolled out to 0.25cm thick. This is then frozen.

Again, I only feed the as a treat, twice a week maybe. And remove any leftovers (there usually arn't any

)

Tom

Owch · Post by **Owch** » 14 Jan 2006, 15:06

8 days since they began wriggling, and they still have loads of yolk to go at.

From what I've seen, they are black with white dots at the moment, but when they initially hatched they were all translucent.

There are another pair in one of the bigger caves, been there for 3 days. No eggs yet, but he seems to be keeping her in there, and hes fanning all the time. Fingers crossed.

Ill post some pics of the babys when they adventure from the cave.

Tom

Owch · Post by **Owch** » 14 Jan 2006, 15:33

Just had a look in the tank and mum 1 is looking a little on the fat side, possibly gravid even

Post by **Barbie** » 14 Jan 2006, 17:47

That's so awesome! Congratulations

We'll look forward to pictures! My L333 females are so rotund they look like little weebles as they stare at me from under their log and refuse to enter the males cave

.

Barbie

laurab5 · Post by **laurab5** » 14 Jan 2006, 19:08

Barbie, it is the same with my female. She is fat, way fatter than the others. What should i do, should i sit on my hands like you told everyone else. I went to the LFS and the 2 QA's they had were 1.5-2 inches, so i am waiting. Instead i traded my L104's for a male and female BN. Barbie, do you think Julie and frybabies could get me 2 females.

Owch · Post by **Owch** » 14 Jan 2006, 20:33

Barbie wrote:they look like little weebles

Barbie

A perfect description.

Owch · Post by **Owch** » 18 Jan 2006, 19:37

Some pics (sorry, they're off my mobile)

Dad in the cave

A wee baby!

The L333 fry are so much bigger than the baby BN's, for their age (ref. pic 1 of the fry, the baby BN on the left is 11 days older than the L333 fry)

Enjoy

Tom

kkorotev · Post by **kkorotev** » 19 Jan 2006, 23:12

Tom,
Yes, you're right. The L333 fry grow faster than any Hypancistrus...any SUCKERMOUTH I've ever had the fortune to raise. I have eight from last October that are already 2".
I had to get a little plastic ruler out and triple check the length.

Just a side note to those trying to spawn the fish: My female played musical caves between multiple males (for days) the first couple times she spawned. She settled on the same male both times but he was NOT the largest one in the tank. So...if you can give her a chance to shop, it might be better than if she only has one choice.

My 2 cents.

Kevin