3 foot "Log Jam" tank (40 gallon breeder)

Seedy · Post by **Seedy** » 15 Sep 2007, 23:15

Thanks to the help I have been receiving here, my wife and I have almost completed our 3ft 40 gallon (~90cm wide x 46 deep x 43cm tall) "log jam" tank.

Stock List:
1 ~6cm Panaque sp. 191 (Dull eyed Royal Pleco)
1 ~5cm P. maccus (Clown Pleco)
9 Corydoras trilineatus
1 C. delphax
1 large Pterophyllum sp. (Angel Fish)
1 large (~12cm) Epalzeorhynchos bicolor (Red Tailed Shark)

Plants:
Java Moss (Vesicularia dubyana)
Java Fern (Microsorium pteropus)
Amazon sword (Echinodorus bleheri)

Filtration:
Eheim Pro2 2026
AquaClear AC-70 (formerly AC-300)
Powersweep powerhead (Model 226) with sponge pre-filter.

Substrate:
Playsand and gravel mix.

Aquascaping is all natural consisting of:
Chola cactus
Coconut shell
Molpani/Swahala driftwood
Malaysian driftwood
Unknown "bog-wood"
Maple (branches, twigs, trunk bark)
Oak (twigs and branches)
Willow (branches and trunk bark)
Pecan (branches and twigs)

Feedback and comments are appreciated!

Here's the Pics:

Full Tank:

Left side:
[IMG:650:867]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y5/see ... C00763.jpg[/img]

Middle:
[IMG:650:635]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y5/see ... C00784.jpg[/img]

Right side:
[IMG:650:867]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y5/see ... C00767.jpg[/img]

Things that swim:
[IMG:650:333]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y5/see ... oyadfs.jpg[/img]

[IMG:650:445]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y5/see ... C00718.jpg[/img]

[IMG:650:431]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y5/see ... C06169.jpg[/img]

Haavard Stoere · Post by **Haavard Stoere** » 15 Sep 2007, 23:58

Very nice

You have been very true to the "log jam" theme. Very natural!

Seedy · Post by **Seedy** » 16 Sep 2007, 08:49

Haavard Stoere wrote:Very nice You have been very true to the "log jam" theme. Very natural!

Thank you. Considering how much thought you have put into your tank, I take that as a real compliment.

I need a little bit more wood to completely cover the filter spraybar... but I want to see what I can find in the local rivers and lakes around here.

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 16 Sep 2007, 11:09

Great tank for your Panaques,well done

And when they eat the cut sides of the woods,it will become even better and very natural looking

And to anwser your question better now,you can keep your L191 in this tank for at least 4-6 years before he needs a bigger one...Enjoy him!!!

grokefish · Post by **grokefish** » 16 Sep 2007, 11:28

Looks cool but I would have stashed the coconut shell away out of site myself.
It's good to see someone using stuff they find around about the place rather than buying it all from a shop. Bogwood is a ripoff.

Matt

Seedy · Post by **Seedy** » 16 Sep 2007, 11:48

grokefish wrote:Looks cool but I would have stashed the coconut shell away out of site myself.

My wife suggested that...I think that would make it look more realistic. Thank you for the feedback. I may do just that when we add the next batch of wood.

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 16 Sep 2007, 12:47

I would get the cactus out of there asap

most cacti have alcaloids in their sapstream. if there's a residu of that in the cactuswood and your plecs eat it or it starts leaking out; you get into serious trouble (read: pile of dead fish)

what are the chances of Amazonian fish encountering cactus wood?

Seedy · Post by **Seedy** » 16 Sep 2007, 12:56

Sidguppy, I mean, what are the chances of a Pleco running into some glass or silicone?

Do you really think chola cactus might be toxic? I have heard of people selling chola cactus for "pleco chewes" (I think member "Jackster" told me about them). I see them used for both reptile and bird perch/chews so I would think they are non toxic. Can you show some sources for toxicity with the dried "skeleton" of this cactus?

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 16 Sep 2007, 14:51

look, it's simple: glass and hardened silocone are inert at normal waterparameters, hence harmless for fish.
and tested by a zillion fishkeepers

next; the fact that birds and/or reptiles can deal with it doesn't mean nothing.
there are many known bird- and reptilespecies that feed on insects that feed on pinetrees. no harm done. but pinewood also contains terpentine wich IS harmful (a lot!) to all aquatic organisms.
hence nobody should toss paint- or terpentine-residu in the sewer, cause it'll screw up aquatic life.

the fact that some people advise it also doesn't mean a thing to me. there are a fair number of quite smart people in our hobby. unfortunately there are also a whole whoppin' lot of stupid dumb people to balance that out, and to spare.

most cacti are slightly (some strongly) poisonous.
a common name doesn't say anything. this cactus has a trade name.
supply me with a proper scientific name and I'll be able to show you why cactus skeletons are completely unsuitable for use in a fishtank.

Seedy · Post by **Seedy** » 16 Sep 2007, 20:49

Sidguppy, I apologize, I did not mean to sound insulting when I typed that. I certainly respect your opinion and you have helped me out in the past. I think that my midwest American attitude and "online accent" don't translate well (sorry, I've grown up "redneck".) I am not so much trying to argue or disagree with you as question you to learn more.

Your advice is absolutely wanted! I trust and respect you!

the fact that some people advise it also doesn't mean a thing to me. there are a fair number of quite smart people in our hobby. unfortunately there are also a whole whoppin' lot of stupid dumb people to balance that out, and to spare.

I completely understand that. Hence your avatar.

There is someone on line who is selling this cactus "pleco chews"...Here is where I got the idea:

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/ ... 1190172302 While I realize an auctioneer is trying to get my money, I have to admit that the pleco's (Panaques in this case) seem to like it (scroll down through the add to see the pics)

I don't know what specific species it is. Your help would be appreciated there.

Also, If "Jackster" could chime in, he may know what species of cacti it is.

Seedy · Post by **Seedy** » 16 Sep 2007, 21:06

PS. All materials added where boiled 3 times and the water poured off on each boil to help eliminate any possible toxins....

Seedy · Post by **Seedy** » 17 Sep 2007, 05:01

This was also a pretty good indication for me that it was safe for plecos:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/ ... cochew.jpg

Seedy · Post by **Seedy** » 17 Sep 2007, 06:11

sidguppy wrote: supply me with a proper scientific name and I'll be able to show you why cactus skeletons are completely unsuitable for use in a fishtank.

Opuntia bigelovii

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 17 Sep 2007, 06:32

I'll check the plant

but do aware that I already know now that this is a cactus that has minute spines. submicroscopic spines. the ones that can get in your follicles if you're a mammal and give you hell.

Opuntia's are notorious for that. I reckon a fishgill would be affected as well

now a skeleton doesn't have spines, but if it's found near the remains of the rest of it, there are chances that those minute spines are also embedded or gotten lost in the cracks and crevices of that skeleton.

I'll check the plant, but to be safe....best replace it with another piece of wood

and i can't see it on the pix, so it's not going to be missed?

Seedy · Post by **Seedy** » 19 Sep 2007, 10:37

Here's a new shot. There has been some settling of the wood and I have moved some things around.

I think next will be to fill in the back right side of the tank with small twigs and perhaps leaf litter. The Cory's really seem to like swimming in the twigs. Due to a CO[sub]2[/sub] SNAFU on another tank, there is also a Fp. gardneri killi fish pair.

I am slowly building up the plants with clippings from other tanks as they become available.

[IMG:650:848]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y5/see ... C00817.jpg[/img]

Haavard Stoere · Post by **Haavard Stoere** » 20 Sep 2007, 00:32

I dont´ know anything about cactus sceletons, but according to the seller at aquabid it is actually used as a food item for plecos. That is all very interesting, but I don´t really have an opinion on that matter.

Your tank is really beautiful, and I would like to use it as an example of a biotope tank in my next lecture on aquascaping in a couple of weeks. This is a nonprofit thing, so I can´t offer you anything else then glory, mention of name and all that stuff.

Seedy · Post by **Seedy** » 20 Sep 2007, 01:10

Haavard,

Send me an email at[email addy removed to prevent spam]and I will send you photo's in the resolution you request. I ask for nothing but credit for my work.

...Oh and give me another few days to get some more wood in it. I was just given some more Willow branches...

Haavard Stoere · Post by **Haavard Stoere** » 20 Sep 2007, 13:20

Thank you Seedy

N2Biomes · Post by **N2Biomes** » 21 Sep 2007, 23:10

Seedy wrote:This was also a pretty good indication for me that it was safe for pl*cos:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/ ... cochew.jpg

Seedy, that is a photo of my Royal on the pleco chew. I had just put the chew into the tank, and it was floating when the Royal found it and investigated. Once it sunk (the next morning), I can honestly say that I haven't seen the fish show any more interest in it, but then I have several other types of wood in the tank that are bigger and more intersting

Perhaps I didn't do enough investigation before I purchased these chews - should have put the dots together. I've seen these chola tubes for sale at various LFSs and *assumed* they were safe. My Royal is fine so perhaps that little piece was not exposed to much. Better safe than sorry, I think I'll remove it from the tank.

Seedy · Post by **Seedy** » 22 Sep 2007, 23:11

Hello N2Biomes,

Thank you for your reply and your concern. If your picture was used in that ad without your permission please let me know and I will remove the link to the picture. (Nice Pleco by the way!)

I think Sidguppy has jumped the gun on calling this "Cholla" material toxic. I have seen nothing to indicate toxicity at this point, and Sid didn't even bother to spell alkaloid correctly, so I'm not sure he knows what he's talking about in regards to this plant.

This material was recommended to me as a Panaque food by a Planet Catfish Supporter and a well experienced hobbyist who's opinions and experience regarding keeping Panaques I trust.

I have had this "wood" in my Panaque's tank now and I see no distress from either Panaque or the other non wood eating fish in the tank. The tank has MANY choices of woods for my Panaques to graze on, however I have found both my P. maccus and my L191 grazing on the Cholla wood several times when I have turned on the light. Considering how many different kinds of wood are available in my tank, I think it says something that the Panaques have chosen to chew on the Cholla material...

Cholla wood is quite commonly sold for parrot chews and perches (as well as for small mammals, and reptiles). Parrots can be quite sensitive animals to toxic substances and if this plant contained significant amounts of toxic substances I am reasonably sure that they would no longer sell this as a parrot product.

In life and fish keeping one must take some risks. I understand if you are not willing to take than chance and remove the "Cholla" from your tank. I'm going to go ahead and "roll the dice" and take the chance on this material. Consider it an informal "experiment" if you will...

...and Sid, I appreciate and understand your concern!

I will be sure to keep the Peyote out of my tank!

Jackster · Post by **Jackster** » 23 Sep 2007, 01:12

The plant you mentioned is rightfully called Cylindropuntia bigelovii (teddybear cholla). I can't find any references to toxicity at all but I have found some mention of the buds, berries, and stems being cooked and eaten by Cahuilla Indians. I'm sure the spines floating around an aquarium would certainly be undesirable, but we can't assume that any contamination of spines is present in the cactus skeleton and, in fact, I just talked directly with the very well loved Uncle Rick and he assured me that no spine contamination exists. Since the spines of this type of cactus have been compared to fiberglass insulation under your skin, anyone who has handled these pleco chews (cactus skeletons) would quickly be aware of any contamination due to the obvious discomfort which would occur. I also know that over 500 of these pleco chews are currently being used in aquariums (all over the USA) for mostly Ancistrus species as well as a few Panaque species with no reports of any deaths or disease that I'm personally aware of.

And as for sidguppy's avatar, I hope he's not seeing a reflection in the mirror?

UNCLERICK666 · Post by **UNCLERICK666** » 23 Sep 2007, 07:00

OK HI!
THIS IS MY FIRST POST HERE, I DON'T KNOW 99% OF YOU SO I'M TRYING TO MAKE A GOOD FIRST IMPRESSION BUT.....

OMG I DON'T BELIEVE THIS.......

OK, APPARENTLY YOU FOLKS WILL DO ANYTHING TO GET ME TO JOIN THIS FORUM!!

I'VE HAD ENOUGH FOLKS RATTLE MY CAGE ABOUT THIS
"MISINFORMATION" THAT I JUST HAD TO SEE WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT, AND I JUST HAD A NICE CHUCKLE.

I REALIZE YOU DON'T KNOW ME FROM ADAM SO......
LET'S TALK ABOUT ME FIRST OK?

I GOT MY FIRST FISH IN 1952 (GUPPYS) AND HAVE BEEN "HOOKED" ON FISH EVER SINCE.

IN 1964 I SAVED ALL MY CANDY MONEY AND IMPORTED BLUE COBRA GUPPYS FROM GERMANY, I BELIEVE I WAS THE FIRST IN THE USA TO RECEIVE THEM.
WHEN I WENT TO COLLAGE IN 1965, I HAD OVER 1500 INCLUDING 300 BREEDERS! ( I NOW HAVE A GREAT LINE OF THAI BLUES)

I WAS A MEMBER OF THE BOSTON AQUARIUM SOCIETY FOR ALMOST 2 DECADES. AND HAVE WORKED AT BOTH THE STONE ZOO AND THE NEW ENGLAND AQUARIUM, CARING FOR EVERYTHING FROM, SEA LIONS TO POLAR BEARS, AND OF COURSE ALL TYPES OF FRESH AND SALT WATER FISH AND OTHER AQUATIC CREATURES.

ABOUT 6 YEARS AGO I HOOKED UP WITH A FAMOUS GUPPY BREEDER AND A MARINE BIOLOGIST/VET/NUTRITIONIST WHO FORMULATED THE VARIOUS "CHOWS" USED BY MANY OF THE MAJOR U.S. AQUARIUMS. TOGETHER THEY FORMULATED ALL MY FOODS.....AND STILL DO!
THE LATEST BEING PRO~TEC "GEL".

ALL MY FOODS ARE GUARANTEED TO NOT ONLY BE SAFE, BUT TO GROW HEALTHY, HAPPY, AND MORE COLORFUL FISH!

I CAN UNDERSTAND FOLKS BEING RELUCTANT TO TRY SOMETHING "DIFFERENT". FOR GENERATIONS FOLKS THOUGHT EATING TOMATOES AND EGGPLANT WOULD KILL YOU JUST BECAUSE THEIR DISTANT COUSINS (DEADLY NIGHT SHADE, DATURA, ETC. CAUSED SOME DEATHS.

OK SOMEHOW I FIND IT HARD TO BELIEVE THAT MOST CACTUS ARE POISONOUS, IF THEY WERE THEY WOULDN'T NEED SPINES TO KEEP CRITTERS FROM EATING THEM. IN FACT I DRINK ALOE JUICE (FROM CACTUS) DAILY. AND PRICKLY PEAR CACTUS FRUIT ARE RELISHED BY FOLKS WORLD WIDE.

I KNOW THIS IS AN INTERNATIONAL SITE SO YOU FOLKS IN MEXICO, AND CALIFORNIA THAT HAVE EATEN ALL KINDS OF CACTUS FOR GENERATIONS PLEASE CHIME IN. GRANTED MANY JUST DON'T TASTE THAT GOOD, OR ARE TOO MUCH TROUBLE TO DEAL WITH,BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY WILL KILL YOU!

SOME FOLKS SAY IF YOU WRITE PLACO INSTEAD OF PL*CO ALL YOUR FISH ARE GONNA DIE,
(I KNOW THIS MIGHT BE A TOUCHY SUBJECT FOR SOME FOLKS, AND IF SO, I APOLOGIES, BUT THERE IS A RELEVANCY HERE)OR THAT MUSHROOMS ARE POISONOUS! AND IN A FEW INSTANCES THAT'S TRUE, BUT WHEN THEY WROTE THE MUSHROOM TEXT BOOKS THEY DIDN'T KNOW THAT FOLKS EAT OR USED THOSE SAME MUSHROOMS FOR 4,000 YEARS!
SOME THINGS YOU HAVE TO PROVE FOR YOURSELF SO IT HAS VALIDITY. SO ALL I DID WAS TRY A NEW WOOD, FOR A VERY LONG TIME, SO YOU WOULDN'T HAVE TO.

NOW THE FIRST GUY TO EAT A RAW LOBSTER, OR SEA CLAMS.......THAT GUY WAS BRAVE!

NOW SOME FACTS (AS I KNOW THEM)

IT TOOK ME OVER 2 YEARS OF SELLING "BETTER THAN BRINE" TO CONVINCE FOLKS THAT IT REALLY WAS BETTER!

I GOT LOTS OF EMAILS SAYING "20 TIMES MORE NUTRITIOUS THAN BRINE SHRIMP? NO WAY!"

WELL GUESS WHAT IT'S TRUE......BRINE SHRIMP IS NOTHING MORE THAN WATER IN A SHELL AND ISN'T VERY NUTRITIOUS AT ALL, AND IS A PITA TO DEAL WITH.
OF COURSE SOME WILL SAY I'M TALKING OUT MY BUTT, BUT IT'S A VERY CUT BUTT, ASK MY GF.

I'VE BEEN USING MY CHEWS FOR 5-6 YEARS MOSTLY AS PLANTERS AND DECORATIONS, AND JUST THOUGHT THEY BROKE DOWN AND DISINTEGRATED OVER TIME UNTIL ABOUT 2 YEARS AGO WHEN I PULED A PIECE FROM A PLECO TANK AND COULDN'T GET THE FISH TO LET GO....EVEN WHEN IT WAS OUT OF THE TANK!

SOON I REALIZED THE PLECS HAD BEEN EATING IT ALL ALONG, AND I HAD THOUGHT IT WAS JUST NICE USING IT TO PLANT IN, AND AS A COOL DECORATION.

IN OVER 5 YEARS, I'VE HAD THEM IN EVERY TANK WITH EVERY TYPE OF FISH.

SEVERAL TYPES OF CORIES, PLECOS, ANGELS, RAMS, APISTOS, GUPS, CRAYS, WOOD EATING SHRIMP, MBUNA AND MOST RECENTLY 6 PIECES IN A TANK OF 30 CARDINAL TETRAS, FOR OVER 8 MONTHS!
(IF YOU'VE KEPT CARDINALS YOU KNOW HOW SENSITIVE THEY ARE!)

IN 5 YEARS I HAVE NOT LOST 1 FISH BECAUSE OF THE CHEWS, HECK THE ONLY TIME I LOOSE FISH IS FROM BREEDERS FIGHTING, OR A BIG WATER CHANGE WITH THE CITY WATER, WHEN THEY REPLACE BROKEN LEAD PIPES.

I HAVE SOLD OVER 500 PIECES JUST ON AQUABID, AND ANOTHER 100 LOCALLY, AND NOT ONE FISH WAS LOST BECAUSE OF MY CHEWS ! I KNOW HOW FISH FOLKS ARE, IF JUST ONE PERSON LOST FISH FISH AND KNEW THAT MY CHEWS CAUSED A PROBLEM, IT WOULD BE ALL OVER THE FORUMS, AND I'D BE OUT OF BUSINESS .......ALREADY!

BELIEVE ME I WOULDN'T SELL ANYTHING THAT I HADN'T USED MYSELF FOR AT LEAST .....WELL IT WAS 3 YEARS
ON THE "BTB" AND 1 YEAR THE LEAST FOR THE "GEL"
AND 5 YEARS FOR THE CHEWS!

I HAVE FOLKS BUYING 25-50 AT A TIME THAT HAVE HUNDREDS OF TANKS AND ARE HUGE PLECO BREEDERS.
DO YOU THINK THEY WOULD PUT THEIR FISH AT RISK?

HECK MY BIG PLECS (COMMONS) AT 18" 20" MUST HAVE EATEN 8 POUNDS OF THEM SINCE THEY WERE BOUGHT AT 3/4"

YES THAT'S RIGHT COMMON PLECS CAN AND DO GROW OVER 12" DESPITE WHAT IS BEING SAID....
(COULD IT BE THE FOOD?)
AND I HAD SIX, ONLY 1 LEFT A MALE BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD THE BUYER THAT MALE PLECOS WILL KILL EVERY OTHER MALE IN THE TANK!
THEY GREW UP TOGETHER IN A 55 GAL WITH ANGELS.
AND NO FIGHTING AT ALL.
I HAVE NEVER SEEN THAT HAPPEN SO..... BRINE SHRIMP?
AND THE BIT ABOUT MICROSCOPIC SPINES ON THE MY CHEWS...... UNLESS THEY WANT TO PUT ONE OF "MY" PLECO CHEWS UNDER AN ELECTRON MICROSCOPE AND POST THE PIC. NO WAY JOSE!

OH AND I DON'T BOIL MY WOOD BEFORE USING AS "MY" FISH LIKE THE SMALL AMOUNT OF TANNINS RELEASED.

BESIDES THESE CHEWS HAVE BEEN OUT IN THE DESSERT FOR MANY, MANY, YEARS AND THE INSECTS, SAND, WIND, RAIN SNOW AND 112 DEGREE SUN HAS BLEACHED THEM CLEAN!
AIN'T MOTHER NATURE GRAND!
(ALTHOUGH THEY ARE PRESHUREWASHED WITH WELL WATER)

SO YOU CAN LISTEN TO ONE PERSONS OPINION,
(WHO HAS NEVER TRIED MY PRODUCTS, BY THE WAY), OR CHECK MY FEEDBACK ON AQUABID FOR WHAT THE HUNDREDS OF FOLKS THAT HAVE USED MY PRODUCTS ARE SAYING!

AS AN ASIDE I DID GET PERMISSION FROM L.D. TO USE HIS EXCELLENT PIC, EVEN GAVE HIM CREDIT!
AND ALSO FROM BLUERAM06 FOR THE USE OF HIS.

IF YOU PULL THE CHEWS FROM YOUR TANK BECAUSE OF ONE GUYS POSTED OPINION, THEN YOU AND YOUR FISH ARE LOOSING OUT ON A GREAT NATURAL PRODUCT!

SORRY THAT MY FIRST POST HAS TO BE DEFENSIVE BUT, HEY
"IT AIN'T EASY BEING ME!"

OK SO.....HOW DO I GET MY AVATAR UP?

p.s.
OH AND NO I'M NOT YELLING I'M JUST SICILIAN AND WE ALL TALK LIKE THIS, SORRY,........KINDA MA THING, PLUS I'M BLIND AS A CAVE FISH.

p.p.s. IF THIS SOUNDS LIKE AN INFOMERCIAL IT'S JUST THAT I'M VERY PASSIONATE ABOUT MY FOODS, MY FISH, AND MY WOMEN. NOT NECESSARILY IN THAT ORDER!

IS THERE SUCH A THING AS A p.p.p.S?
ABOUT SILICON, I BET A SHINNY NEW QUARTER 75% OF THEM WILL KILL FISH. YOU NEED THE RIGHT ONE, THE ONE THAT OTHERS HAVE USED SUCCESFULLY FOR YEARS....AS I'M SURE YOU ALREADY KNOW.........

MAN I GOTTA STOP DRINKING COFFEE AT 1:00 IN THE A.M.

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 23 Sep 2007, 07:33

After reading this

I think Sidguppy has jumped the gun on calling this "Cholla" material toxic. I have seen nothing to indicate toxicity at this point, and Sid didn't even bother to spell alkaloid correctly, so I'm not sure he knows what he's talking about in regards to this plant.

and this lil comment

And as for sidguppy's avatar, I hope he's not seeing a reflection in the mirror?

I know I'm not going to waste any more time on advice for you two even if the fishcorpses pile up higher than a compostheap

you just put a tank full of non decomposed plant material that's going to rot; see what happens to your waterquality in a couple of months

so my avatar runs through after all; spotted 2 more.
count is now about 5 billion and 2

Seedy · Post by **Seedy** » 23 Sep 2007, 08:01

So, uh Hi UncleRick! Nice to "meet" you...although you do speak a little loudly...Thank you for assuring me that your product is safe...although I have to admit I bought mine locally and not through you

Having read some of the articles about the nature of these cacti, and having eaten prickly pear cactus myself. I am now quite certain that "Teddy Bear Cholla" is safe. Mine will stay in my tank along with all the other woods.

Um...so anyway...what do people think of the idea of trying to recreate a natural "snag" in a river similar to where I was reading many Panaque sp. are found? Any other suggestions to help improve this tank? (Hiding the coconut shell helped a lot)

My Wife has added some new wood (willow sticks/small branches) and we have been using the "Cholla" as a place to stick clippings from my planted tank. I will take some new pics and have them posted before the weekend is over...

A couple other thoughts...I have another AC70, should I go ahead and add it too? I mean, wow these Panaques make a lot of "sawdust"...On that same note, considering I have a L191 growing out, and a P. maccus in the tank, can I get away with adding another Panaque or three(now I'm getting greedy). Housing the adult Panaques will not be an issue as I have never failed to upgrade a tank size when required by the fish. Thoughts?

Seedy · Post by **Seedy** » 23 Sep 2007, 08:07

Edited by Seedy-There was no need for me to be rude...

UNCLERICK666 · Post by **UNCLERICK666** » 23 Sep 2007, 08:24

HI SEEDY NICE TO MEET YOU AS WELL. I'M SURE THERE IS A GREAT FAMILY OF FISH FOLK HERE, AND I'M SURE I CAN ADJUST TO THE NEW FACES, AND THOUGHTS.

THE CHEWS WILL BE EATEN LONG BEFORE THEY ROT!
AS FOR THE WOOD DAM LOTS OF JAVA MOSS OR SIMILAR AND AN EMPTY COKE BOTTLE

SERIOUSLY VERY NICE TANK....I'M ENVIOUS.

ALL THE BEST.........UNCLE

OH....YOU MIGHT WANT TO TAKE THE BARK OFF OF THE WILLOW.....THAT'S WHERE ASPIRIN COMES FROM SO IF YOU LEAVE IT IN THE FEMALES WON'T HAVE AN EXCUSE NOT TO BREED........

BlkMagik79 · Post by **BlkMagik79** » 23 Sep 2007, 08:35

sidguppy wrote: you just put a tank full of non decomposed plant material that's going to rot; see what happens to your waterquality in a couple of months

sidguppy,

We were not born yesterday so yes we are well aware that wood decomposes. Hence the massive filtration on that tank that gets cleaned weekly. However, there is wood sitting on the bottom of lakes and oceans everywhere that has been sitting in water for hundreds or even thousands of years and still in tact so I'm not too worried about all the wood decaying anytime soon. I'm pretty sure the panaque will have eaten all of well before it completely decomposes.

Bas Pels · Post by **Bas Pels** » 23 Sep 2007, 09:13

Seedy wrote:Sidguppy, It is a real shame that you're one of the most negative and petty people I've met on the web...

A than you should look further
B In real life he is quite a nice guy - and that is more important

BlkMagik79 · Post by **BlkMagik79** » 23 Sep 2007, 09:26

Bas Pels wrote:
Seedy wrote: A than you should look further
B In real life he is quite a nice guy - and that is more important

and? Considering we are on the internet and not in person...this doesn't apply.

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 23 Sep 2007, 09:45

I think Sid deserved something better than your replys...Whatever your opinion may is about the toxicity and general safety of this cactus and whatever you decide to do,he just warned you about something he knew or the very least he believed its true,caring for your fish...He wasnt rude or something and didnt attaked any of you...Why should you?

Just a thought...I think he deserves an apology by all...

3 foot "Log Jam" tank (40 gallon breeder)

3 foot "Log Jam" tank (40 gallon breeder)

CHICKEN LITTLE SAYS" THE SKY IS FALLING" SO EVERYB