Cold/Cool Water Tanks

[AndiH]

My mom fell in love with pics of S barbatus so I've been trying to arrange it so I can get some for her (maybe she wont protest my tanks so much! lol). I believe C paleatus would work with them temperature wise, but does anyone know of some mid or top ranging fish that would work at those cooler temps and maybe some plants?

[Richard B]

white cloud mountain minnow would be one option

[wrasse]

Hi AndiH,

Tell your Mum she has good taste...
and check out the Gymnogeophagus family. Some of them like the temperate conditions same as S. Barbatus.

[AndiH]

Haha I will check them out, right after I find a reliable source of info

The minnows aren't a bad idea at all, but I would really like something with more color.

[Mike_Noren]

I've been wondering...
S. barbatus is found in southern Brazil, in the coastal streams of Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo, where it is found with e.g. Corydoras nattereri and Hypostomus punctatus. This means that it is a tropical species which does not encounter nearly as cold conditions as subtropical/temperate species like Corydoras paleatus or Corydoras hastatus, so howcome the recommended temperature in the cat-elog is lower for S. barbatus than for the species it lives with, or even those cold-adapted argentinians?

To me it would seem from the published temperature accounts of its home waters that any temperature between 18 and 30 celsius would be acceptable to S. barbatus, meaning it can be kept with any tetra.

[Jools]

howcome the recommended temperature in the cat-elog is lower for S. barbatus than for the species it lives with, or even those cold-adapted argentinians?

The cat-elog temperature figures reflects a range they will live in captivity, it's a range, not a recommended absolute nor a view of temperature in their natural habitat unless of course they've not been kept in captivity or we have no other data.

It's a commonly kept species and the data in the cat-elog reflects that we know more about it and how low it will take temperatures. I agree about the cold adapted Argentinians, however I don't have data on them and wouldn't like to guess. That said, from experience, I know at least one pleco species that will take it really cold.

On the Corydoras paleatus front, there's the fact that very very close to 100% of all C. paleatus are tropically farm raised fish, I don't know how cool water tolerant they still are. On the same front, I am keeping wc Ancistrus cirrhosus at 70F but I daren't change the common bristlenose entry.

Suggest changes based on husbandry and we'll review and make them.

Jools

[Mike_Noren]

The cat-elog temperature figures reflects a range they will live in captivity, it's a range, not a recommended absolute nor a view of temperature in their natural habitat unless of course they've not been kept in captivity or we have no other data.

There are published studies on the abiotic factors of streams in that region (e.g. fig. 3 on page 35 here), suggesting that S. barbatus in nature encounter water temperatures between 15 and 30 celsius. It coexists with species such as Parotocinclus maculicauda. I do not know where the notion that S. barbatus is a cold water species comes from.

I know at least one pleco species that will take it really cold.

I can from personal experience say that aquarium-strain C. paleatus can survive for months at 4 celsius, and I would expect that S. barbatus handles temperatures at least down to 10 celsius, but critical low temperature survival isn't really the issue here, suitable long-term keeping temperature is.
C. paleatus thrives at any temperature between 20 and 30 celsius, I would expect the same to be true of S. barbatus.

I would conservatively suggest raising the upper temperature bound for S. barbatus to 26 celsius - that's no doubt still an underestimate of its true temperature tolerance, but there is observational evidence supporting it (the link above).

[Bas Pels]

From what I've read about S barbatus, it lives high up, in cold streams of recently thawed water - therefore much colder than one would have expected, looking at the map

Obviously, during the day, the water will warm up, but at night, this external heating is gone, andthemps will drop again.

Therefore, they might very well encounter 30 C - but not all day. I really wonder wheter 26 C would be a good advise for S barbatus - as this would be the all day temperature, not a max for 1 hour at the time

On a sidenote, I would assukme they would enjoy a fluctuating temparature much, just as for instance Xiphophorus do

[Mike_Noren]

From what I've read about S barbatus, it lives high up, in cold streams of recently thawed water - therefore much colder than one would have expected, looking at the map

FishBase occurrence data suggests that it is strictly a lowland/foothills species, I find no published data which suggest that it ever encounter water temperatures under 15 celsius, data on rivers it is known to occur in shows temperatures from a low of 16 to a high of 29.6 celsius, with a yearly average of 22 - 24 celsius. As far as I can tell it's a perfectly normal tropical species.

[racoll]

but does anyone know of some mid or top ranging fish that would work at those cooler temps and maybe some plants?

Hi.

Many Danio will work really well in a small room-temp tank with your S. barbatus.

My personal recommendations are Danio tinwini, D. erythromicron, D. choprae, D. kyathit, D. roseus, D. aesculapii, D. margaritatus or D. sp. "Hikari".

Buy wild caught or F1s from local breeder, and be sure to avoid the mass produced zebra, leopard, longfin and pearl Danio. They are really poor quality these days.

Some small Puntius from India or Myanmar will also work well, and these could include Puntius padamya, P. erythromycter or P. gelius, for example. There are many others.

Another excellent alternative is Sawbwa resplendens, which is a really attractive and interesting fish - full of character.

[AndiH]

Hrmm, I opened a can of worms didn't I? In any case, I of course want whats best for the fish, any fish, that I put in there. The C paleatus was chosen based on Cat-eLog data so that isn't a huge factor. Warmer temps would give more variety of other fish to choose from, but again only if I'm sure all will do well in the same general range of temps. If it helps, my pH is really high (can't remember off the top of my head exactly what it is, but I always end up using the high-range pH test).

[racoll]

If it helps, my pH is really high

All of the fish I mentioned will do fine in alkaline water, but the Sawbwa in particular will work really well as these come from a naturally alkaline habitat - Lake Inle in Myanmar.

[AndiH]

Ive given myself too long to think on this LOL. I keep seeing pics of fish and think "Ohhh I want that!". Latest is paradise fish. I've read so much on the web that contradicts each other. The only thing the sites seem to agree on is that they're labyrinth fish and general size. Some say they're species aggressive, some that it depends on tank, others that they aren't. Same goes for other species of fish. I don't think they'd harm corys in any case, but it is confusing. Anyone know anything about them from experience? (I seem to have a love affair with labyrinth fish lol, bettas, gouramis, and now paradise fish?!)

Oh well. I just ordered the stand for the tank and it still has to cycle so I have time to figure out what I want.

[Bas Pels]

From a Dutch gentleman who is very much into cold water fishes I once heard thet paridise fish are very agressive when kept warm, and very docile when kept cool.

So perhaps all sources you referred to are correct - if read properly. Put differently, keep them cool (18-21 C), and they will be peacefull

[AndiH]

Hrmm interesting Bas, but I suppose it makes sense. It adds another layer to my indecision Haha

[racoll]

AndiH, have you read here? Macropodus opercularis. Tons of info for you, and reliable too!

Basically, several males in a small tank is a bad idea.

The bigger the tank you have, the more chance of a group getting along, once they reach maturity.

[AndiH]

Hrm yes I actually had read that one I never was considering more than a pair since I don't think my tank would be big enough. They were more for the flash of color higher in the tank with my cats. I don't think keeping ELBs with it would be good though!

[Bas Pels]

Today on a Dutch cich-lid forum Notropis Chrosomus was mentioned - a.k.a. Alabama minnow

I think they would go nicely with my Gymnogeophagus, including the winter, but I know they can last a few years @ 15 - 25 C. Still a nice combination for me

Inquiries at the LFS after prize have been made

[AndiH]

Hehe if they can survive that then they shouldn't be called Alabama minnows since Alabama is a warm state

I'll check into them.

[Jools]

Suggest changes based on husbandry and we'll review and make them.

I meant to say suggest them in the bugs forum where the team (rather than just me), can review and make the changes.

Sorry, for both lack of clarity and going a little off topic.

Jools