My Public Aquarium: exhibit blues - how to make them?

Post pictures of your beloved catfish aquaria here. Also good for pictures of your (cat)fish rooms or equipment discussions. If you are posting pictures of identified catfish, please do so in the appropriate husbandry and reproduction forum above.
Viktor Jarikov
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Re: My Public Aquarium: exhibit blues - how to make them?

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Shovelnose wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 6:03 am A rubbish pic of one of the T.malabaricus I currently keep (6-7" TL), notice any difference in the caudal fin?
Nice. Thank you. Are these black bands in the caudal, anal, and dorsal a reliable ID trait of Tor malabaricus? Our 2 footer alleged malabaricus has them, albeit they are rather faint but still discernible. The supposed 1 footer doesn't have them, its fins are even gray. None of the other mahseer we got here, big or small, have these black bands.

If this trait is reliable, I'd say we don't have any other malabaricus except the big guy.
Thebiggerthebetter
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Re: My Public Aquarium: exhibit blues - how to make them?

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

One of the champion overzealous feeding machines, on par with D. lusosso, has died. One of the cigar sharks. I believe from overfeeding. These fish have to be kept solo or in a setting where their feed intake can be controlled, which is impossible in the communities we ever kept them in.

It is the one of two that had a large black bulge (fat sack / blowout?) above its left eye for the last year. The other cigar shark is ok for now.

28 inches / 70 cm, 20 lbs / 9 kg, 8 years old:

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Re: My Public Aquarium: exhibit blues - how to make them?

Post by Shovelnose »

Viktor Jarikov wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 7:09 pm Are these black bands in the caudal, anal, and dorsal a reliable ID trait of Tor malabaricus? Our 2 footer alleged malabaricus has them, albeit they are rather faint but still discernible.
Yeah, T.malabaricus is one of the few Indian mahseer that can be reliably identified and the black on the fins along with fewer lateral line scales is key for the same.

I didn't know this species reached the 2 foot mark, sounds like a massive specimen!! It is otherwise known to max out at around a foot in length.
Balaji

Customer:Not much of a cheese shop really, is it?
Shopkeeper:Finest in the district, sir.
Customer:And what leads you to that conclusion?
Shopkeeper:Well, it's so clean.
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Viktor Jarikov
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Re: My Public Aquarium: exhibit blues - how to make them?

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Shovelnose wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:44 am
Yeah, T.malabaricus is one of the few Indian mahseer that can be reliably identified and the black on the fins along with fewer lateral line scales is key for the same.

I didn't know this species reached the 2 foot mark, sounds like a massive specimen!! It is otherwise known to max out at around a foot in length.
Thank you so much brother! Maybe it is not malabaricus after all, if it is unknown to exceed 1ft... Maybe it is khudree?

I don't expect you to look at everything below but I do wonder what you'd say...


*****


Here is the big supposed malabaricus 5 years ago Feb 2017, at 1.5ft. It came one-eyed from Wesley Wong of Rare Fish, California, USA. The right eye had been poked out.
BTW, a seemingly knowledgeable colleague posted in the comments on YouTube on my video:
まなし1 week ago
This fish isn't Tor malabaricus. I think it's Tor khudree. For Tor malabaricus, the first epaxial longitudinal series of scales is clearly too many the number.

I replied: Fish Story Aquarium & Rescue1 week ago
Thank you so much for the info. I think you may be quite right. When I look at it swimming by my large 2' Tor khudree, they are stunningly similar. I wonder though why in some sources Tor malabaricus is listed as Tor khudree malabaricus.


*******


Feb 2018: The supposed malabaricus is featured from the beginning and almost to the end when the bigger khudree comes in for several seconds:

*****


Jan 2019, going to the 25K gal:

******


Feb 2019:
Post from Jibran with photos of khudree and malabaricus: https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/foru ... st-8057413

thebiggerthebetter said:
AFAIK the location - the malabaricus is of course from southern India. But Jibran headbanger_jib headbanger_jib has written of some discernible differences before between an khudree and an khudree malabaricus.
Jibran: Khudree originally is from Maharashtra, which was hybridised by the govt and later introduced widely as source of food in the rivers, so now the hybrid khudree us found in Maharashtra, karnataka and Kerala.

Tor Malabaricus is from kerala

moe214 said:
What’s the differences from this one and the malabaricus
Jibran: Khudree has smaller scales, the headshape is pointy.
Malabaricus has visibly larger scales, hence the lateral line scale count is less, the fins get reddish during monsoon. Else they are dark coloured.

Here are a few pics that would help... (see the link above)


*****


Apr 2020, loss of our khudree: https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/foru ... st-8219103
Thebiggerthebetter
Viktor Jarikov
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Re: My Public Aquarium: exhibit blues - how to make them?

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

*****


Jun 2020: Jibran aka headbanger says Tor putitora and Tor tor are the same or indistinguishable if I got him right and also khudree and malabaricus are (hardly) different, which agrees with my observation. https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/foru ... st-8248175


*****


Jul 2020: photos of the smaller mahseer, two of which we bought as malabaricus https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/foru ... st-8251528

and a video

*****

Feb 2022 The 6 smaller mahseer two of which were bought as malabaricus:
Thebiggerthebetter
Viktor Jarikov
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Re: My Public Aquarium: exhibit blues - how to make them?

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

One of the 6 newcomer mahseer in the 1800 gal is proving to be courageous and hungry. I think this is the 10" douronensis we bought from Jeff Rapps just before he sold his business.

- Tor douronensis
- aka Semah mahseer,
- aka gold rose mahseer,
- aka thai gold mahseer

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Re: My Public Aquarium: exhibit blues - how to make them?

Post by Shovelnose »

Viktor Jarikov wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:55 pm Maybe it is khudree?

Yes, blue fins plus dorsal profile says T.khudree, the image of the dead fish also resembles this species. However, I wouldn't be able to comment on whether these are hybrids or not, its almost impossible IMHO.
I find the dorsal profile of T.malabricus and T.khudree to be quite different, I will mail you pics of what I see/think the difference is.

Some information on Indian Tor.

Species of Tor known from southern India.

Tor remadevii (Humpback Mahseer) - Upper Cauvery in Tamil Nadu, Kerala and Karnataka. Critically Endangered. Unlikely to be ever encountered in the trade.

Tor khudree (Blue-finned Mahseer) – Originally from the Krishna river in Maharashtra & Karnataka. It has since been introduced into dozens of rivers all over India and a few locations outside of the country as well (Papa New Guinea, Laos etc). This act, IMO, has only created more confusion.

Additionally, there are many claims (accusations?) that the introduced fish are khudree*putitora/tor hybrids which obviously makes it worse. I have seen a few of these alleged hybrids in fish markets here and they look nothing like Tor, almost discus shaped and terribly malformed fish. I also got a few pics of the broodstock used in the breeding program and they looked no better, I lean towards believing the hybrid accusations based on this. Bycatches are exported on and off.

Tor malabaricus (Malabar Mahseer) – Middle reaches of westflowing Rivers in Karnataka, Tamilnadu and Kerala. Collected very often and exported. There is a breeding program in place for this species as well.

There is also T. kulkarnii from the Godavari River Drainage (Maharashtra) which was described as a dwarf mahseer. Validity is unknown at the moment, I made a few attempts to collect the fish from the type locality but was told it hasn’t been seen in many years.

Tor from the northern regions.

Tor tor (Red-fin Mahseer) – Commonly collected from West Bengal (especially between the months of November and February) for the trade. It has a large distribution extending down to central India. I’ve encountered multiple 'types' (deep body, slender body, red fins, yellow fins etc) of this species including a golden one that I got from central India recently.

Tor putitora (Golden Mahseer) – Need I say more? :icon-wink:

Tor chelynoides – A dwarfish species, maxes out at around a foot. Found in the Ganges and Indus drainages (north-northwest India). Never been in the trade but a cool fish for the hobby IMO. Considered to belong to the genus Naziritor by some.

T.mosal - I have what I think could be T.mosal, one 'type' from Arunachal Pradesh and another from Assam (with minute differences). I believe this is a species with a slender body, an elongate snout and a very prominent mid lateral stripe.

There are three other nominal species, T.barake,T.mahanadicus and T.progeneius that I have no experience collecting or keeping.
Balaji

Customer:Not much of a cheese shop really, is it?
Shopkeeper:Finest in the district, sir.
Customer:And what leads you to that conclusion?
Shopkeeper:Well, it's so clean.
Customer:It's certainly uncontaminated by cheese.
Viktor Jarikov
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Re: My Public Aquarium: exhibit blues - how to make them?

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Shovelnose wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 2:16 pm ... I find the dorsal profile of T.malabricus and T.khudree to be quite different, I will mail you pics of what I see/think the difference is...
Can't thank you enough, Balaji. This is so much great knowledge in such an easy and condensed form.

So the nominal malabaricus I got from Wesley Wong in Aug 2015 is then khudree. Took 7 years. We'll leave it at that. Thank you!

The nominal khudree (which passed) we'll leave as khudree.

Why not post your photos here? Are they too big?

Thank you so very much for the info on the Indian Tor.

I got a nominal progeneious from Wesley as well. It doesn't look like any other Tor I have kept or seen. Its early photo from 2015-2016 is in the thumbnail for the video above "Feb 2022 The 6 smaller mahseer two of which were bought as malabaricus". ... Never seen anyone else keeping one. It is currently around 2.5ft / 75cm in the 25K gal, along with the malabaricus-turned-khudree who's found its true identity after 7 years of error / uncertainty.

So true malabaricus is a smaller mahseer, topping out at 1ft? Didn't know this. Also, I wonder why Jibran never told me / us about the obvious and helpful-for-ID black rays on true malabaricus... Is he of different opinion or is this trait not believed by some to reliably ID the malabaricus?
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Viktor Jarikov
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Re: My Public Aquarium: exhibit blues - how to make them?

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Thebiggerthebetter
Viktor Jarikov
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Re: My Public Aquarium: exhibit blues - how to make them?

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

I'm shocked our red devils fed on ants - I thought formic acid made ants not palatable or worse... So far, it's been about a week and we see no ill effects on the red devils from ant consumption. They are as perky, brazen, and hungry as ever.

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Re: My Public Aquarium: exhibit blues - how to make them?

Post by Shovelnose »

Viktor Jarikov wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 1:39 am
Why not post your photos here? Are they too big?
Oh no, I just didn't want to photobomb your thread. Besides, they're not good pics anyway. :icon-redface: :icon-lol:
Viktor Jarikov wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 1:39 am I got a nominal progeneious from Wesley as well. It doesn't look like any other Tor I have kept or seen. Its early photo from 2015-2016 is in the thumbnail for the video above "Feb 2022 The 6 smaller mahseer two of which were bought as malabaricus". ... Never seen anyone else keeping one. It is currently around 2.5ft / 75cm in the 25K gal, along with the malabaricus-turned-khudree who's found its true identity after 7 years of error / uncertainty.
Which video is this? I'm unable to locate it.

Image

Image

A T.khudree from the Krishna river (2017), I suspected this to be a hybrid as the collection spot was downstream of the hatchery. The ones I keep now are from Karnataka and I am hoping they are not hybrids. They are well settled and do show the blue finnage on and off, I'll take a few pics and post them here tomorrow.

Image

Image

A couple of weird specimens from 2015, I can't really say what they are but it looks like there's a bit of T.tor in there somewhere. These are from the region (southern Maharashtra) where I saw the misshapen fish.

Image

Image

I think this could be T.mosal. I have similar looking fish from Assam (pictured above) and Arunachal Pradesh (will add pics tomorrow), there are minute differences between the two.

Image

Image

Image

Tor chelynoides
Balaji

Customer:Not much of a cheese shop really, is it?
Shopkeeper:Finest in the district, sir.
Customer:And what leads you to that conclusion?
Shopkeeper:Well, it's so clean.
Customer:It's certainly uncontaminated by cheese.
Viktor Jarikov
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Re: My Public Aquarium: exhibit blues - how to make them?

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As soon as fake wood was introduced, red devil juvies started fighting like never before... Thank goodness, this fighting subsided over the course of the day.

Thebiggerthebetter
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Re: My Public Aquarium: exhibit blues - how to make them?

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Re: My Public Aquarium: exhibit blues - how to make them?

Post by Shovelnose »

Image

Image

Tor malabaricus


Image

Image

Tor khudree
Balaji

Customer:Not much of a cheese shop really, is it?
Shopkeeper:Finest in the district, sir.
Customer:And what leads you to that conclusion?
Shopkeeper:Well, it's so clean.
Customer:It's certainly uncontaminated by cheese.
Viktor Jarikov
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Re: My Public Aquarium: exhibit blues - how to make them?

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Thebiggerthebetter
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Re: My Public Aquarium: exhibit blues - how to make them?

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Thebiggerthebetter
Viktor Jarikov
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Re: My Public Aquarium: exhibit blues - how to make them?

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Thebiggerthebetter
Viktor Jarikov
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Re: My Public Aquarium: exhibit blues - how to make them?

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Thank you so greatly Balaji for this continuing teaching. Very much appreciated. It's so good to see the assured Tor malabaricus and Tor khudree and their differences.
Shovelnose wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:40 pm Which video is this? I'm unable to locate it.
Here are some visuals on the progeneious. If I recall right, you had said you don't know anything about this mahseer, so I am not sure if you can confirm or refute the nominal ID:

Aug 2015:
Mahseer Tor progenius.JPG

Dec 2016:
Mar 2017:
Jan 2019:
Feb 2021:
100_9610.JPG
Thebiggerthebetter
Viktor Jarikov
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Re: My Public Aquarium: exhibit blues - how to make them?

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Thebiggerthebetter
Viktor Jarikov
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Re: My Public Aquarium: exhibit blues - how to make them?

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