a new tank: rheophile catfish species of Rio Tocantins

[sidguppy]

rheophile catfish species of Rio Tocantins

since this river isn't in the catelog search function, thought I'd ask it here

anyone know which species are found in the Rio Tocantins?
especially the species found in the rapids of that river, the rheophiles

i tried fishbase, but fishbase too didn't budge with the tocantins; and a general search on all fishy things Brazilian definitely won't do

can anyone experienced or with knowledge about South american biotopes shine a light on this?

[MatsP]

Like all other (South American) rivers, it is listed as Tocantins, rather than "Rio Tocantins" (because literally half the list would be under the letter R if we did that).

--
Mats

[Martin S]

Like all other (South American) rivers, it is listed as Tocantins, rather than "Rio Tocantins" (because literally half the list would be under the letter R if we did that).

--
Mats

As an aside, could you not then append ' (Rio)' to the end, i.e. Tocatins (Rio) so that users know it's the right one?

[sidguppy]

nice one; that link's a fair start

now I'd like the experienced South America browsers to chime in and separate the rheophiles from the non rheophiles

some deduction I can do; it's probably safe to assdume certain Loricariids on the list are rheophiles, Imparfinis and maybe the big Pims like Aguarunichthys too

but which one of the others?

[MatsP]

Like all other (South American) rivers, it is listed as Tocantins, rather than "Rio Tocantins" (because literally half the list would be under the letter R if we did that).

--
Mats

As an aside, could you not then append ' (Rio)' to the end, i.e. Tocatins (Rio) so that users know it's the right one?

Aside from the fact that it would take a few days to enter it, I don't see any technical reason we couldn't do that.

It does have some side-effects, eg. my BOFW link above would need to be [ bofw ]Tocantins (Rio)[ /bofw ], for example. And it would still be inconsistant, since not all rivers are called "Rio". The Thames for example would either nothing or "River", and what do we do with "Mekong" - do we use the Thai/Vietnam/Laotian word for river (transliterated to English?) or call it River? What about the Seine in France (not that it's currently in the database, but just as an example)?

I orginally had "Rio" or "Río" at the beginning - and one of the problems is rivers that flow through both Spanish-speaking countries and Brazil is that they are called "Rio" on one side of the border, and "Río" on the other. Very confusing.

--
Mats

[Martin S]

Aside from the fact that it would take a few days to enter it, I don't see any technical reason we couldn't do that.

It does have some side-effects, eg. my BOFW link above would need to be [ bofw ]Tocantins (Rio)[ /bofw ], for example. And it would still be inconsistant, since not all rivers are called "Rio". The Thames for example would either nothing or "River", and what do we do with "Mekong" - do we use the Thai/Vietnam/Laotian word for river (transliterated to English?) or call it River? What about the Seine in France (not that it's currently in the database, but just as an example)?

I orginally had "Rio" or "Río" at the beginning - and one of the problems is rivers that flow through both Spanish-speaking countries and Brazil is that they are called "Rio" on one side of the border, and "Río" on the other. Very confusing.

--
Mats

No problem, and I did think it was probably more work than benefit, but just thought I'd throw it out there.

[sidguppy]

I just found a very nice link
Rio Tocantins fish species list pdf
can anyone put his eyeball on it and check it as well?

there's a LOT of species on there that aren't listed as 'Tocantins' in the catelog
so the Catelog might be lacking
or
this list isn't without mistakes

but in the first case, we might be able to update a fair number of species profiles with "Tocantins" added to the description!

[MatsP]

This comes up from time to time. There is a problem with requesting "Tocantins" in the way that we've done the listing. For example, a species is listed as "Lower Amazon basin". Now, this fish MAY OR MAY NOT exist in the Tocantins, because it flows into the lower Amazon. Certainly, not ALL species of the Lower Amazon basin will occur in the Tocantins, so we can't simply say "this species occurs in a basin connected to the Tocantins" - that would give far too many "false positives" (where we find the fish doesn't ACTUALLY live in the Tocantins). So, the list only shows fish that are listed as "Tocantins", or rivers whose "downstream" connection in Tocantins. But not those who are "upstream" connected to Tocantins.

If there was an easy way to determine which fish occurs in which river, we could add them...

--
Mats

[sidguppy]

For example, a species is listed as "Lower Amazon basin". Now, this fish MAY OR MAY NOT exist in the Tocantins, because it flows into the lower Amazon

that's not the case!
the rio Tocantinms does NOT flow in the lower Amazon, that's why it might be possible to list them

see the map:


the amazon delta is visible above the mouth of the tocantinsa, but any fish leaving the tocantins would have to be seasalt-proof to enter the Amazon.

[MatsP]

Sorry, got my rivers confused, I was thinking of Tapajos - although we do actually list Rio Tocantins as a "Lower Amazon" tributary - it does flow into the delta of the Amazon. Wikipedia also says that it's commonly considered so: "It is not really a branch of the Amazon River, although usually so considered, since its waters flow into the Atlantic Ocean alongside those of the Amazon."

I will have a look at the list when I get home. However, the conceptual problem of "something is listed as occurring in X, does that mean it's in Y". Whether we consider it part of lower amazon or not, another example would be if it's listed as "Widespread in Brazil and Venezuela", we may list it as a Amazon, Orinoco and Parana fish. Does that mean it's not in Rio Xingu? No, not really. Does it mean it IS in Rio Xingu? No, not really that either - it means that it's been found in many places in Brazil & Venezuela. It comes down to "work effort vs. precision". I could sit down and go through (for example) Fishbase's list of occurrences [and make some sort of judgement on what is correct or not], or I can take the overall "Distribution" from books, fishbase, catalog of fishes, or whatever and add the named distributions to the Cat-eLog.


Here's an example from the list in the PDF:
Brachyplatystoma filamentosum
Distribution according to Cat-eLog: Widespread in Amazon basin
According to fishbase:
South America: Amazon and Orinoco River basins and major rivers of the Guianas and northeastern Brazil. Reported from Argentina
Occurrences in fishbase: http://www.fishbase.us/museum/Occurrenc ... lamentosum
(I won't list all the localities listed on that page - but none actually mention Rio Tocantins).

Another one:
Otocinclus hoppei
Distribution according to Cat-eLog: South America: Amazon River basin.
Fishbase has no occurrence records [or fishbase is broken!]

So, in summary, it's hard, unless you find lists like the one above [or just "happen to know"], to establish which fish lives in what river. I have entered the vast majority of the 3899+ occurrence records that we have in the Cat-eLog.

--
Mats

[sidguppy]

OK

so it's tricky

anyway; anyone familiar with species of the Tocantins that are rheophiles?

[sidguppy]

thought I'd kick in my own topic, since the next weekend I go to OF and get a group of Retroculus lapidifer; I also hope to find some Pimelodus tetramerus

apart from these 2 species the other fish in the tank will be a shoal of Triportheus spp, a species of Doras or Hassar and a pair or trio of Ancistrus ranunculus.

the tank is my new 1,70m tank, 612 liters/161.7 US gallons

its already up and running for almost 2 weeks and the waterparameters seem to have settled just fine.

[sidguppy]

looks like I have to postpone my cunning plans a wee bit; Oliver's crashing the CSG concention!
;)

[grokefish]

I believe there are parancistrus species from there, also lemon tetras.

Also I believe there are fish similar if not the same as red eyed tetras and everyones favorite Megladoras.

On a side note, seeing as the fresh water can be found miles out from the mouth of the delta of the amazon, I'm note sure they would have to seawater proof themselves.

[sidguppy]

I'm not really into Lemon Tetra's, the Characin of choice will be Triportheus, since they're not only good looking, but powerful enough to cope with the current.

if the tank was a bit longer I'd go for Chalceus epakros, which is native to the Tocantins and Araguaya rivers.

this is a real beauty, but IME Chalceus really shouldn't be kept in anything shorter than 2 meter and even that is quite cramped

unlike Triportheus, they usually hang around, they're no cruisers.
however....IF they start, it's more like firing a bullet than regular swimming

I've seen Chalceus getting spooked in a 2,5m tank and zipping from 1 end to the other at Mach 1, crashing into the other end
we had a few dead Chalceus that we couldn't explain, until I found out that someone in the house with a too short fuse didn't bother to close doors the normal way.
slamming doors in a house with these fish is lethal.

I really love chalceus, but i'll stick to the less supersonic Triportheus
;)

other New World Characins I love include Parodon, Characidium, Metynnis, Acestorhynchus, Ctenolucius and there's one species of spotted Leporinus that's bright red.....


Out of sheer curiosity:
would there be gymnotids that live in rheophile conditions?

most live in densely planted area's, a few in sandy area's and even odd ones in really deep parts of the river, like those blind Tamandua Knife's.

but a species in the rapids? is there such a fish?

like those spiny eels from the Congo that cope with current by living between the wedges and under pebbles.
do some Gymnotids have a burrowing life style?

[Bas Pels]

You do know Charasidium loves current - and thickly planted areas, don't you?

The problem is, however, finding them

[sidguppy]

getting Characidium isn't that hard; especially in the right season they're usually for sale

Characidium fasciatum turns up on a regular base. it's probably not exactly the right species, but these are quite hard to determinate.

I'll skip on them, however; because in 1 pf my smaller african tanks i want to (re)try Nannocharax fasciatus.
they make a fine companion for the Gobiocichla

Nannocharax is not so easy to keep, so I wait till the tanks are all in order before i get these.

since that tank is right next to the Tocantins set up I will not be adding characidium as these 2 look very similar.

so far the list of fish in this Tocantins set up will be these:
Retroculus lapidifer
Pimelodus tetramerus
Ancistrus sp Tocantins
Hassar spp
Triportheus angulatus

I think this is a nice list for a 600 something litre tank
;)

[kruseman]

Out of sheer curiosity:
would there be gymnotids that live in rheophile conditions?

most live in densely planted area's, a few in sandy area's and even odd ones in really deep parts of the river, like those blind Tamandua Knife's.

?

Found this: http://www.mendeley.com/research/new-rh ... ronotidae/
Probably not available though...

[sidguppy]

update:

the first fishes for this tank have arrived:
8 very young and small Triportheus angulatus

yeah, I know, Triportheus angulatus isn't a native of the Tocantins.
T albus, T auritus and T trifurcatus are.

unfortunately none of these is in the trade. I only ever saw a few T albus once at OF Aquaristik.
however, Triportheus angulatus and T trifurcatus look a lot alike, so for me it's the "next best thing".

;)

this weekend I can collect Ancistrus sp Tocantins (tnx to Daniel and Stephan!) and some other fish.

the Characins are in the quarantaine tank for now, since they're very small and i'm still mucking about with rocks and things in the Tocantins tank.

SG out

[Acanthicus]

this weekend I can collect Ancistrus sp Tocantins (tnx to Daniel and Stephan!) and some other fish.

Glad to hear that you can get them.

[sidguppy]

Fishy Crazyness!


Today I was Mr Fish Taxi Cab Man

I went to Germany for a roundtrip and came home with my old Toyota filled to the brim with new livestock

first stop:
Stephan Schaaf's fish cellar just west of Koblenz to get

Ancistrus sp`rio_tocantins`

he's a dedicated L number enthousiast with quite a few breeding tanks in a true catacomb under his house
I got 9 juvenile Ancistrus for an absolute bargain price; all arrived home in good health and now they're slowly acclimatizing by drop-method

second stop: Oliver Frankk, OF Aquaristik.
there I got extremely lucky, cause there was more than I had foreseen
this was the "Fish Taxi" part of my trip, cause I bought and brought fish from OF for:

Bas, who now has a pair of

Rhamdia quelen

Arjan who got 3

Tatia strigata

and 4 Parodon affinis to add to his 3 P affinis

Marc who added 2 (hopefully a pair) Ageneiosus sp "green" to his tank.
this is a new species, not in the Catelog and it's not the species I've seen at Neil's place in 2010; these are shorter and different build, much more robust.

I went for a group of 8 Retroculus lapidifer, but I also got
4!!

Pimelodus tetramerus

. I expected only 2 or so left, but Oliver still had 4. they're nicely sized and already very stripey

and totally unexpected, BUT also suitable for this set up were the last 3 Hassar!
Oliver had a shipment of these, but they turned out quite fragile. he told me 3 survived and stayed there already for quite some time. they're now here, acclimatizing and so far they look healthy and not stressed at all

amazing fish and I never kept any hassar yet. Doras/Ossancora and other more common Doradidae, but not Hassar.


because of the Hassar I did my third stop at:
Zoo Zajac: where I bought 2 extra powerheads, 1 for the tank and the other as a back up.


the fourth stop was Eindhoven at Marc's place, where Bas and Arjan also picked up their fish

Marc made a gift of 6 gianormous Triportheus angulatus which are in the tank now, slowly cruising around
they made it without any issues at all.

but they're so huge, if anyone not into fish thinks I'm breeding salmon at home, I can forgive them

[Bas Pels]

Bas, who now has a pair of

Rhamdia quelen

Bas, who's very happy with them

They are now in a 130 * 50 cm tank, acclimatizing. In a month they wil lgo into my newly decorated (guess what am doing the next month) 4 meter Central America tank

First catfish which inhabits CA I ever had

Sid, thanks a million

[sidguppy]

I thought you had a Rhamdia before?
I've seen it a few years ago.....

was in 1 of the shorter garage tanks
;)

on the topic: I've seen try-outs for Pimelodus spawning
last night I couldn't sleep (too much excitement), so I spend my time watching the fish until 2 AM (when I could sleep)
the tetramerus went completely berserk!

3 of them got into this racing chasing behavior and often went 'tail head' making waves to each other and hitting each others' heads

that's just fighting for dominance I think

but the fourth, the big one, got a different treatment; they kept chasing that 1 too, but they constantly swam on top of that ones' head, tickling it with the chin whiskers and trying to get "T style" in front of it

it looked like a speeeded up version of Corydoras mating, except they didn't try to clamp the snout, so maybe more like Synodontis mating.

the big one wouldn't have any of it, so time and again after she was followed all over the tank she would turn around and chase away 1 of the smaller ones

it's pretty obvious I got 3 males and 1 larger female, though

[Marc van Arc]

You are up early
So I take it all new stock is doing well?

[sidguppy]

I don't see any catfish at the moment, except for 1 Hassar that i can spot under the wood, I think that's a good sign, since sunlight is blasting into the room

the triportheus are just cruising, but they do freak out when I get close, they got plenty room to do so ;)

the Retroculus are busy levelling the sand, so everything looks OK to me
;)

[MatsP]

Which Retroculus are they?

--
Mats

[Bas Pels]

I thought you had a Rhamdia before?
I've seen it a few years ago.....

was in 1 of the shorter garage tanks

I still got it, but that one came from Uruguay - not CA therefore. It measures some 20 cm now

[sidguppy]

Which Retroculus are they?

Retroculus lapidifer, juveniles about 6-7 cm or so.

[sidguppy]

update on the tank:

so far it looks like all fish are settling in just nicely

the Retroculus behave like I'm used to; quite active and they''re not so much into dry food, they prefer to pound down loads of unfrozen stuff, mysis, mosquito larvae, artemia etc.

I only recently found out that I was wrong about these: Retroculus is NOT a Geophagine cichlid, but it belomngs in a group all by itself.
no wonder all the meaty stuff doesn't bloat em up at all.
consider myself lucky.

the

Pimelodus tetramerus

are worth all their money and more. such a lively funny and visible catfish, even when the lights are on and sun is shining in the room.
just a wee bit of food and up pop the 4 weasels
not agressive at all; they love to chase each other and tickle the other fish, but not a scratch anywhere. playful fish.

the Triportheus are still skittish, but their majestic cruising sure works; a great fish.

my Doradids are the ones I'm most concerned about; the Hassar like species are not the easiest to keep fish and they're shy and a bit overly impressed, especially by the Pims.
however; they eat well!
they were skinny, but unlike the Retro's, these guys love flake, especially the OSI. i see nicely filled tummies.
however, they're not Hassar.....I think I got myself 3

Hemidoras stenopeltis

not a Tocantins fish, but they'll stay alright. real beauty and as odd as oddballs can be.


the Quarantaine tank with its shoal of baby Triportheus and

Ancistrus sp`rio_tocantins`

looks fine; i was quite worried, since the Tocantins were kept in RO water and my water is as hard as bricks.....
I took well over 2 hours to acclimatize them and so far they're a very lively bunch.
gotta go after some extra greens, though; their tank is totally void of any algae and the few pieces of wood I got with algae on em are too big for it.

;)

[sidguppy]

a few attempts at taking pictures


the big shinies are Triportheus.


retroculus lapidifer juveniles


pimelodus tetramerus