How to solve ichthyophthirius multifiliis in L-numbers

[miryam]

Hi! i´m new in this webpage, firstly sorry for my english, i´m from spain.
I´ve got a tank 120L more or les, 27 galons. and I´ve got some Hypancistrus false cebra, una peckoltia L134, and fralowelas, with fry! and 2 days ago I have seen this disease in the cardenals and other several fish.

I have understood that any traditional treatment is not good for catfish.... so I´m a little lost in this way.
Anyone could help me!

once I have used protazol... but the result was not very good because 2 hypancistrus and one baryancistrus died.

please help me

[MatsP]

The active ingredient in Protazol is Malachite Green, which isn't a "bad" medication for catfish. Unfortunately, Ich is quite harmful in itself, and especially in plecos which often don't show that they are ill until they are quite heavily infected (the infection often attack the gills, which means you can't see it). Bear in mind also that ALL Ich medications only work on the freeswimming phase of the parasite.

There are also some peoeple who claim that plecos rarely get proper Ich, but that it is another parasite. It makes little difference, the cure is the same.

--
Mats

[Marc van Arc]

Buenos dias,

When you don't want to use medication, just raise the temperature to 30C and add sea salt (1,5 grammes per liter) to your tank.
Dissolve the salt first in a bucket and then slowly add it to the tank.
You should see the fishes getting better after some days.

Good luck.

[Mike_Noren]

The active ingredient in Protazol is Malachite Green, which isn't a "bad" medication for catfish.

Are you sure about this? I was under the impression that malachite green is highly toxic to catfish.

[MatsP]

I have used Malachite Green based medication with catfish.
According to this:
http://www.sera.de/fileadmin/gbi/02182_ ... 06_INT.pdf
you use 1ml per 20 liter, and there is 100mg active ingredient per 100ml of the medication. That means 1mg/ml medication in 20 liter = 0.05mg/liter in the tank. The link you provided seems to indicate that this is (within reason) safe, at about 1/6th of the LC50 (24h) dose on the channel catfish.

But you are right, at higher levels, it is indeed toxic to catfish, and more so than other fish indeed.

--
Mats

[miryam]

Thank you very much!!!!!

I also have understood that malachite green is highly toxic to catfish.... once I´ve use a SERA Protazol 25 ml, with malachite and 3 L-numbers died.... because you must change the 80% of water after treatment.

I think that is impossible that the water conditions are in bad situation because I have 2 farlowelas vittata spawning continuosly... and the fry are all of them alive, (20 small farlowelas).

Ok I´m gonna raise the water temperature to 30 °, with good aeration and I hope all be ok.
if someone have more sugestions please, tell me

Thanks!!!

[miryam]

umhhhhh sorry i forgot to say that I think that is Ichthyophthirius because of the white spots in other species like cardenal and guppys... in plecos I can´t see nothing, they only appear nervous and restless.... they are eating and be standard.

Do you know something about METRONIDAZOL????? some people use this for plecos whit white spots and other bacterial diseases.

[CUPfishhead]

When you don't want to use medication, just raise the temperature to 30C and add sea salt (1,5 grammes per liter) to your tank.
Dissolve the salt first in a bucket and then slowly add it to the tank.
You should see the fishes getting better after some days.

I agree with mark. I add a total of 1 tablespoon/5gal. I add it over a day or two to avoid a sudden change. While it will not get rid of the Ich like the chemical does it helps the fish fight it off better and Ich doesnt really like the osmotic pressure. The high temp makes them reproduce faster and usually the life cycle is completed in a day or two at them temp and then they usually die out because of the heat and the fish being better able to fight them off. I wouldn't the metronidazole for Ich,It is one of the best out there for broad range fungus bacteria and parasites but Ich should be easily taken care of without using that strong of a med.

[miryam]

Ok thanks!

I will maintain 30º during 10 days, and some people say that I could use a half of the dose of Metronidazol to reduce the toxicity.
has anyone ever used garlic?

I hope in a few days it will be better.

[miryam]

Hey guys!
it´s normal that for two days with 30º-31ºC, I continue seeing the white spots in some fish?

please tell me: Yes!

[Marc van Arc]

I will maintain 30º during 10 days, and some people say that I could use a half of the dose of Metronidazol to reduce the toxicity.

You're not using salt?

[miryam]

ok, because before the other mate wrote here about salt method... I already had used Metronidazol... and i think that I musn´t mix salt and metronidazol? must I?

in case of I would do it, how much quantity of salt in 30 galons-120 L???? I already tell you about the 2-3 week fry of farlowela... the salt is toxic for them?

thanks!!!

[Marc van Arc]

I never use Metronidazol, so I don't know if this can be combined with salt.
In the past I combined salt with other medicins, but only a small amount to strengthen the mucuslayer of the fishes.

The suggestion I made to you was the complete medication to get rid of the Ich: raise the temperature and add the salt. That's all.
Now that you have added this Metronidazol, I'm afraid I can't help you any further.

Maybe someone who has used this medicin previously can?

With regard to your last question: I would never recommend anything toxic, so no, salt should not be dangerous for your fishes. Unless you decide to add much more than the maximum of 1,5 grammes per liter and/or do this in 1 go. The addition of salt should be gradually in 2 or even 3 steps.

[miryam]

Ok thank you Marc!!!!
it's normal that after 2 days with 30º C there are several neon cardenals and farlowelas showing white spots?

any way, if it is not Ich... other skin parasites must be dead rising Tº up to 30 º and with the addition of metronidazol, it will?

[Janne]

Salt is always a good in combination with Metronidazol but not against Ich that not are a bacteria. Malachite green in correct dosages is not harmful to the genus loricariidae, it's toxic but that is almost all medications if over dosage... even pure water are toxic in enough amount (for mammals and fish). Best treatment against ich is Malachite green and raised temp. to 30C, but as Marc wrote... in most cases salt and increased temp. is enought to cure Ich. If heavily infested by Ich salt will not be enough and Malachite should be used, I don't know the concentration in commercial medications but the medication I prepare I know very well, 4g Malachite green to 1 L destilled water and from this I use 1ml per 100L water, very effective and harmless to all fish.

Janne

[MatsP]

<...>the medication I prepare I know very well, 4g Malachite green to 1 L destilled water and from this I use 1ml per 100L water, very effective and harmless to all fish.

4g in 1L = 4mg/ml of prepared solution, 1ml prepared solution per 100 liter = 0.04mg/liter, so about 20% lower concentration than the values I posted earlier.

--
Mats

[miryam]

hello, and bad news....

my cardenal neons continue with white spots, more than at the begining... I have maintained the Tº at 30º for 5 days.... and one neon and several fry farlowelas have died.
I don´t know how to do....the last time that I used green malaquite some plecos died...

[Mike_Noren]

What have you tried so far? Temperature, salt and metronidazole?

Do you have access to formalin? Dosing 37% formalin to a concentration in the tank of 25-50 ppm and repeating this every other day for a week should kill any white spot parasites. Formalin does not appear to be excessively toxic to catfish, but is likely to kill your filter bacteria and any snails (but not shrimp) you might have in the tank. Formalin is mildly cancerogenous, so make sure there is sufficient ventilation, and avoid getting it on your skin.

Most anti-ich medications combine malachite green and formalin for stronger effect. An internet search suggests the following fish medications contain formalin but not malachite green: Formalin by PPI, Ich Guard 2 by Jungle (also contains victoria green and carmosine red, I do not know if these are toxic to catfish), Paracide Green by Argent (also contains a substance called p-P-benzylidene-N-N-dimethyalanine, which I know absolutely nothing about), Myxazin by Waterlife, Sterazin by Waterlife.

That said, are you sure it's white spot? White spot disease looks like grains of salt on the fish's skin and is, in my experience, not normally deadly.

[MatsP]

I don't know about the toxicity, but p-P-benzylidene-N-N-dimethyalanine contains similar structures to Malachite Green - it's not the same, as Malachite green is: 4-[(4-dimethylaminophenyl)phenyl-methyl]-N,N-dimethylaniline, but it's in the same "group". The "benzylidine" is also two phenyl compounds, like there is in the (4-dimethylaminophenyl)phenyl part of the Malachite green. So it's quite similar - but of course, subtle differences to similar types of compounds can make quite a bit of a difference to the effect on both complex and simple creatures!

--
Mats

[miryam]

Hi!

"What have you tried so far?"

I rise Tª until 30 º C , and add of metronidazol during 4-5 days.... and there aren´t results.... so yesterday after a 40%change of water, I used Protazol (base of green malaquite) so today i will tell you how is the tank quality....

and the tank goes better....

I think yes it is Ich... because if not... the skin parasites must be dead with the metronidazol treatement?

the Ich as such... it´s not very dangerous for fishes health, but this parasite could generate other infections in our fish.... I think the high temperatura is the issue wich kill the neon cardenal....

and I have seen other photos of Ich in fish... and is very similar of my case, a lot of white and small spots in the skin... more visibles in cardenals. what other disease it could be?

[Mike_Noren]

I rise Tª until 30 º C , and add of metronidazol during 4-5 days.... and there aren´t results.... so yesterday after a 40%change of water, I used Protazol (base of green malaquite) so today i will tell you how is the tank quality....

Malachite green should have effect against white spot.

a lot of white and small spots in the skin

That does sound like white spot or some similar protozoan parasite infection.

[miryam]

here you have a photo... I think it can´t be other thing that Ich...do you?



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[miryam]

¿why I can see white spots yet? the disease is not goes?

yestareday I try a new treatment with protazol (green malaquite and 4-dimethyl-aminophenyl) is especially for Ich, costia, saprolegnia and other external parasites.

I am maintaining the temperatura in 30 º..... this it couldn´t be Ich in my opinion, anyone knows what is it????? and how to combat it?

I need to solve the problem please



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within two days I´m gonna add the salt slowly 1g / L is it too?

[wrasse]

Why do some of you guys have to get so bloody technical?!?! Miryam needs a cure now... not a chemistry lesson. Its like you need to show off your whitespot treatment knowledge!

And whitespot is deadly! Miryam is seeing that first hand. Catching this disease early-on is important.

And why use metronizodole at all here??? Its an antibiotic.

Using strong medicines when the fish are sick can also kill. 'Kill or cure'...

Miryam, IMO the advice to raise the temp to 30degC is a good, it weakens the whitespot. Adding salt is also good... it helps the fish fight the infection. What you must also do when you raise the temperature to that degree... is increase the aeration strongly... blast the tank with air! The fishes' gills are infected and they need help to breathe.
Cardinals and baby farlowella are small so they will die quickly if you don't treat the disease early.
Sometimes other fish in the same tank appear totally uninfected.

Richard

[MatsP]

Why do some of you guys have to get so bloody technical?!?! Miryam needs a cure now... not a chemistry lesson. Its like you need to show off your whitespot treatment knowledge!

My first answer was that Malachite green is effective against whitespot, which from what I can see, both Janne and Mike agree will be effective. But Miryam doesn't want to use that because some fish died. I'm not sure if that's related to the illness or medication or the combination...

And whitespot is deadly! Miryam is seeing that first hand. Catching this disease early-on is important.

And why use metronizodole at all here??? Its an antibiotic.

No one here suggested using this. However, it is also effective against certain protozoans - not sure if it's good for Ich, but googling the subject seems to show that it's "probably not the best".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metronidazole

--
Mats

[miryam]

thank you very much Richard and Mats.

I don't like green malaquite... you are right but tomorrow i´m gonna use salt.... it´s my unique soution.
I continue with the problem of white spots in my fish, I used metronidazol during some days... and nothing, I have maintained temperature until 30º during 7 days and nothing... the seller of my aquarium shop thinks that is not an Ich... no parasite. she thing that it could be a virus or bacteria, so I remember that you told me...

[Salt is always a good in combination with Metronidazol but not against Ich that not are a bacteria.]

and finally I have decided that it is my last solution...the salt
could you tell me how many salt I need for 120L there are some loricarids...whit white spots in their skin. people says that 1gr/Litter. it´s all right?


thanks!!!!

[sojapat]

Hi Miryam..Mr Wrasse is correct in his observation ,Looking at the tank it is also heavily planted more oxygen goes missing at night because of the plants.
Increased airation along with a standard whitespot medication and salt @84f .it will go provided the water parameters are good.
Dont get too bogged down with the chemistry .

[Marc van Arc]

and finally I have decided that it is my last solution...the salt
could you tell me how many salt I need for 120L there are some loricarids...whit white spots in their skin. people says that 1gr/Litter. it´s all right?

I'm sorry, but why do you keep asking the same things? All the information with regard to how to use the salt has already been explained. And that was almost one week ago. You've lost valuable time by using all kinds of medication instead of doing what was suggested. Too bad, especially for your fishes.....

[miryam]

and why are people so nasty in the forums? I never would tell anyone what you told me, it's a shame (and I assure you I have been in that situation).

Many people have recommended many ways to act ... and I made what I considered more reliable. and the procedure I have chosen is normal, seeing that did not solve the problem continued asking. for such situations serves a forum

thank you very much Richard and Josapart for your patience.

The tank is safe ..... all is well. I'm very happy,

thank you very much again

[Marc van Arc]

and why are people so nasty in the forums? I never would tell anyone what you told me, it's a shame (and I assure you I have been in that situation).

I take it this bit about being nasty is meant for me?
If so, may I remind you that I have spent quite some time to help you and you did nothing with it. Moreover, you kept questioning my advise.
I hope your fishes stay well for I won't spend another second wrt any of your problems/questions in future.
Thanks a lot!