Olyramonster?

[naturalart]

A couple of months ago I purchased what was labeled as a 'horizontal catfish' which I later i.d'ed in the cat-elog as Olyra longicaudata. It was so unique I could't resist the little bugger. I got it home and quarantined it for some weeks. I later put it in a small 2 gal. holding tank with driftwood, javamoss, and a group of 4 'red arch' pencil fish (nannostomus mortenthaleri) until I could figure out what to do with them. For the first few weeks everything was just fine. Then about a week ago I lost the large female pencil. Her fins appeared to be shredded and I thought could it be finrot? I kept regular waterchanges and none of the other fish looked bad. I thought maybe the males were too rough on her. I started keeping an eye. Then a couple days later the second pencil was injured. The whole upper side of its caudal fin was gone! Again I thought could male pencils be that rough? Other pencil species I kept in the past were never that bad… then I became suspicious. I took the second pencil out to an isolated tank. It slowly lingered and died. I had 2 male pencils left and I thought surely I will get down to the end of this mystery. These 2 male pencils were vibrant and healthy. An equal match for each other. And with the extra space in the tank less chance for conflict or for the Olyra to find them. And for a few days they co-existed. Then on the 4th day one was upside down on the bottom anal and caudal fins gone. I couldn't believe it but I had to know it was the Olyra. I took the last pencil out (what I should have done way earlier) and it is fine. Obviously the Olyra had found a way to hunt these fish in the night while they 'slept'. But what I can't understand is why 2 of these fish died in spite of simple fin damage. Could the Olyra be poisonous? And has anyone else had a similar experience?

[Suckermouth]

AFAIK, there are no catfish that have a venomous bite. Aren't pencils pretty delicate? Anyway, it might not just be the damage, but perhaps the catfish is chasing them about at night also, adding to the stress.

[naturalart]

Yeah, that might well be the case. But the second fish went into isolation and had plenty of opportunity to recover. All of the fish had great color before and after death, so not sure what that means. Just wondering out loud, and I'm sure you well know nature is full of surprises.

[Shovelnose]

What are the tank dimensions??? These fish like good flow and lots of rock/pebble cover. My Olyra longicaudata is with Oreichthys crenuchoides which are small cyprinids and I haven't exprienced anything like this.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Sounds strange indeed. Maybe the cat caught them and tried to swallow head first, suffocated them but could not swallow?

[naturalart]

Sorry been out of town for a week so I apologize for the delay.

I wasn't sure if I was going to keep these fish or not so after Quarantine I placed them in a 2 gallon holding tank. There were no other fish in the tank. I had some driftwood, javamoss and a sponge filter in the tank which made things a little cramped. This may account for the Olyras success in hunting these fish. Just the fins (mainly caudal,anal,dorsal) of these fish were damaged. No obvious scratch marks on the head (I've seen fish bitten on the head before). Body color was full and 'vibrant' at death.
Just a note: Some say pencil fish are sensitive but in my experience, if they are housed with other fish relative to their size, they are pretty resilient.

Epilogue: I put the Olyra in a perforated container inside a 10 gallon holding tank (no extra space) with 2 young Syno. alberti and the last remaining pencil fish. It wiggled its way out of it and was free in the tank for 2 days before I could deal with the situation. The little pencil was not damaged or dead, but one of my alberti's was! Both of the Syno's were the picture of health and had been quarantined for a month. The fish that died had a spot of blood or probably a puncture wound just below the terminal end of the humeral process. There were no other signs of injury and all the fins were in perfect condition. The other alberti was not damaged at all afaik. Wish I had a good camera to show all this.

I don't want to demonize the Olyra (subject heading) but just want to get this information out there especially since there is little published about this fish afaik. And to be fair, when I purchased this fish it was quarantined with a couple of rare 1-1/4" tetras and there were no problems. I think the close quarters of the 2 gallon probably contributed to this situation, but the death of the Syno just adds to the mystery. My hope is that a fish physiologist will reads this and is interested enough to determine if this fish has a toxic component or not. More information makes us better fish keepers.

[racoll]

You know the common name for this fish? It's called the "fighting catfish". Clue's in the name.

I've not kept them, but they are only reputed to get aggressive with similar looking species. However, when confined they could conceivably go after anything. I suspect being harassed by the Oylra with nowhere to escape to, led to the demise of the other fish.

[naturalart]

No I didn't know the common name. Thanks for the info. I guess I better think about getting rid of it. I'm into community fish at this stage in my fish keeping on top of just not having the room for species tanks right now. If there's any reading you think I may be missing concerning this species I would appreciate any info.

[Shovelnose]

Wow!!! Frankly, I still find it a bit hard to admit that an Olyra was able to 'take down' a Synodontis (maybe I am just biased). Are S.aberti very docile??? I only ask because I have kept Olyra on multiple occassions and I haven't seen anything like this. Have you considered reconfirming the ID???

Unfortunately, there is very little reading available on this genus other than the original descriptions and a few subsequent papers.

[Bijn]

I think we should ID the fish. I have Olyra at work in a tank with small Puntius shuberti and I see no problems at all. Even a few Ancistrus and Amblyceps are fine.

[naturalart]

The 2 Syno. alberti I had quarantined together were young: both no more than 2". They tolerated each other and fed together without attacking one another. But I never saw them resting side by side. I suspect this will be less so as they get older. I have an adult alberti which I've never seen attack smaller fish, but it will fight valiantly against tougher opponents for its hiding space.

Shovelnose: can you link me to those subsequent papers (if they are public domain)?

I will try and get pics up with my camera phone, but I just got a new computer so its going to take me some days to figure things out.

[naturalart]

Apologies in advance; off my cheap cellphone camera, the head
[img]0815121728.jpg[/img]
[img]0815121711.jpg[/img]
and the longicaudata
[img]0815121727.jpg[/img]
I haven't sent images in a long time. Hope this works

[Shovelnose]

Shovelnose: can you link me to those subsequent papers (if they are public domain)?

All these papers are again new reports from expeditions,books and the like. If you want to go through them anyway, PM your mail address to me.

I am unable to see the pictures. I think you are not copying the image link.

[naturalart]

heres the longicaudata

0815121727.jpg (13.34 KiB) Viewed 9462 times

Heres the head

[Shovelnose]

From what I can see, the fish does resemble an Olyra. Olyra longicaudata typically have very long upper caudal lobes.







The shorter upper lobe in your specimen points towards another species as Olyra horae and O.kempi share this feature but I think your fish might be closer to O.horae. Better pictures (anal and adipose fin especially) will help with an ID.


Some pictures of O.horae can be found here : http://zipcodezoo.com/photographers/Tin%20Win.asp

[naturalart]

Cool. It does have a color pattern like longicaudata but I don't know if its full grown at @3".
I'll work on better pics

[naturalart]

Finally, I've gotten a better camera and equipment. Here are the new pics.

Bijn: what size tank do you have your specimens in? I'm thinking of setting this fish up in a mini version of a riffle tank; or I'll let it go to a keeper who already has a population of this genus/species.

[naturalart]

So shovelnose, what do you think? Getting a pic of this fish is no simple task, it almost never sat still and if it picks up on you movements around the tank it swims toward you. Based on the literature you passed on to me, my best guess would be O. kempi; based on the number of anal fin rays and (predicated on my belief that this fish is toxic) the statement: "In the specimen both the pectoral spines are broken which shows that the fish is regarded as poisonous by the local fishermen."

I looked at the image of O. horea on the link that you suggested but the coloration and adipose doesn't match up. Unless this will change as it gets older?

[Shovelnose]

I actually meant to give you another link. I have attached the image I intended to show you (but I wrongly thought this was the image labelled O.horae).

I don't think your fish is O.kempi as the adipose doesn't match with the plate (PM me if I haven't sent it to you). Olyra burmanica can be ruled out too (lanceolate caudal fin). I received some small specimens (1.5-2" TL) of O.longicaudata recently and the upper lobe of the caudal was much longer than the one on your specimen. So I think we can rule this species out as well. Plus, I think the adipose on your fish is smaller.

Anal fin ray counts of Olyra overlap, so relying only on these counts might make it difficult.

I am guessing tracing where the fish came from is an impossibility???

[naturalart]

Yes, I'm assuming you mean the 1912 plate XLI. Based on that illustration I would agree its not O. kempi. The new image you just sent is as close as we've come. Is Tin Win the managing director of The Hein Aquarium? If so I can contact him via that website, unless you have a better contact (if so PM me).

I will also call the LFS I purchased the fish from but I don't know how far that will get us.

[Shovelnose]

The picture is from here : http://siamensis.org/exsiam/5267.html

[Shovelnose]

This would mean the picture was not taken by Tin Win but most likely Nonn Panitvong. Both pictures are labelled O.horae. Unfortunately, I have zero literature this species. I will request for a few papers later today.

[naturalart]

Okay thanks shovelnose, look forward to hearing from you.

[Shovelnose]

Olyra horae - Holotype (ZSI, Calcutta)

Image - Lal Ram Liana

Unfortunately, the specimen is 'too far gone' to really compare.

[naturalart]

Nice. Ok shovelnose. its O. cf. horea until I hear different from you. But eventually, I think I will let this fish go to another keeper who preferably has others like it.

[Jools]

Nonn Panitvong

Sorry for the slightly off-topic resurrection of this thread but can anyone else recall what Nonn's username is on this site. For the life of me I cannot recall it.

Jools

[Silurus]

I don't think the best way to contact Nonn is through this site. Might be better to email him.

[bekateen]

I don't think the best way to contact Nonn is through this site. Might be better to email him.

Hi Silurus,

I'm already in communication with Nonn. He is a member here but cannot recall his username, and Jools can't find it either. That's the motivation for Jools' question.

Cheers, Eric