Hifin paroon shark - heartattack 1wk ago, showing sick signs

[Joemartini]

I have a hi fin paroon catfish that is about 5" in length and is showing white on his fins.
About a week ago, he hit the glass hard when my friend came up to the tank, they usually never panic but for some reason they did this time.

Immediately he went belly up, floated to the top with his mouth stuck wide open, not moving. I dove my hand in, turned him over and tried to keep him upright with as little touching as possible while looking him over, after thinking he was for sure dead, he started to vibrate slightly then really started full body shakes. This lasted about 20 seconds, all the while mouth gaping open and I was keeping him upright, then the shakes started to subside, he slowly started to come back to normal and stay upright, swimming a little drunk for another half hour then was fine again.

As the week went on, he acted normal but no appetite, then this morning, I noticed white stuff on his fins, not like specks but maybe cottony/slimy? Looks as though it's getting worse.
He's in with another paroon, 2 ID catfish and a wood cat catfish, all of them are perfectly fine and healthy. Water tested fine again today so I'm guessing this is something starting from inside him moving to outside him?

I'll see if the pic will load, I took it off my phone. I sprung a leak in my 120g which is getting repaired right now so they are all currently in the 50g long tank so at the moment I can't separate the sick guy from the rest, anyone have suggestions on treating him without harming the rest?

[Joemartini]

Got a video, sorry for the poor quality

[Viktor Jarikov]

Sorry, mate, IDK what it can be. What happened a week ago was a knockout, not a heart attack. It does not look like ich but the pic quality is not good enough. I hope it is just excess mucus. It surely does not look right. Get better pics and keep us posted, please.

[Joemartini]

I thought he was just stunned from hitting the glass, the ID's have knocked themselves out before but none of them have floated upside down with gaping mouths then convulse.
I went to a few LFS's that had knowledgeable staff, all of them said they've never had an ID survive that and only the one LFS that sells the paroons, said that he's never had one survive after displaying those symptoms so we are left to guess what to do?

I did show them all the video and pics and I was told to try Tetrycycline (sp?) or eurythromycin (sp?), both may harm the other fish during the cycle of treatment, or a topical blue treatment that I would have to basically take him out of the water for, use a cotton ball or tip to remove the white stuff then apply the med and put him back in the water. I opted for the 3rd one for now. He was easy to catch (no doubt from not eating), got it all done last night and this morning, most of the white was gone but he still won't eat. I tried garlic on different flakes/pellet foods but no dice. I'm going to go find a different type of frozen food besides bloodworms to try too, I feel out of options for now so I may run out to buy a small tank setup and start medication after more research.

Any thoughts on the treatment suggested? I'd rather not take him out of the water everyday to apply meds and stress him out further

[Joemartini]

Update:

I've now seen a slight change from the white fuzz on the fins to what looks like the starting of fin rot? The bottom edge of his tail looked a bit frayed, the other fins don't and they had less white stuff on them. I took him back out of the tank and did the same thing as last night, shallow bucket of water and Q-tip swab to rid the fins of what was left of the white fuzz, medicated with the blue liquid that also helps fin rot. He wasn't as compliant tonight so it took longer to medicate and a whole lot of mess.

My hands now look like I've strangled a smurf to death :/

Interesting new development though, I noticed a few small hard bumps on his fins, I didn't pick at them, just swabbed what I could and medicated. I'm not sure what these tiny bumps mean? And they feel hard.

I'm wondering if I could give this method a shot in the morning? I'm unsure if this is safe to try with a paroon, I have salt in the tank regardless but a salt dip like this may help the fin rot - 1 gal of water + 3 teaspoon of salt, drop fish in for 30 to 40 minutes.

Thoughts?

Edited to add - The salt trick may not be good, after reading up on it more, scale less fish are too sensitive for it.

[Viktor Jarikov]

JM: I thought he was just stunned from hitting the glass, the ID's have knocked themselves out before but none of them have floated upside down with gaping mouths then convulse.
I went to a few LFS's that had knowledgeable staff, all of them said they've never had an ID survive that and only the one LFS that sells the paroons, said that he's never had one survive after displaying those symptoms so we are left to guess what to do?
VJ: You are talking about what happened after it hit the wall, not the fin problem, I assume. I think what's happening is that a secondary infection is setting in after the shock your fish experienced compromised its immune system.

JM: I did show them all the video and pics and I was told to try Tetrycycline (sp?) or eurythromycin (sp?)
VJ: Tetracycline is an old generation, good and general antibiotic, AFAIK mostly for gram-negative bacteria an some gram-positive; oxytetracycline is close but better, next generation http://fishchemical.com/FULL-PRODUCT-LI ... .Item.html

VJ: Erythromycin is from the penicillin family, if my memory serves, also a very good, general antibiotic http://fishchemical.com/FULL-PRODUCT-LI ... .Item.html

JM: ... both may harm the other fish during the cycle of treatment, or a topical blue treatment that I would have to basically take him out of the water for, use a cotton ball or tip to remove the white stuff then apply the med and put him back in the water. I opted for the 3rd one for now. He was easy to catch (no doubt from not eating), got it all done last night and this morning, most of the white was gone but he still won't eat. I tried garlic on different flakes/pellet foods but no dice. I'm going to go find a different type of frozen food besides bloodworms to try too, I feel out of options for now so I may run out to buy a small tank setup and start medication after more research.
VJ: A sick fish won't eat. One may be able to force-feed a fish: http://www.mchportal.com/fishkeeping-ma ... -fish.html

VJ: Yeah, having a quarantine/hospital tank is always a huge plus.

JM: Any thoughts on the treatment suggested? I'd rather not take him out of the water everyday to apply meds and stress him out further.
VJ: It's a gamble either way. IMHO what you are doing is reasonable. I cannot tell you it is right.

[Viktor Jarikov]

JM: I've now seen a slight change from the white fuzz on the fins to what looks like the starting of fin rot? The bottom edge of his tail looked a bit frayed, the other fins don't and they had less white stuff on them. I took him back out of the tank and did the same thing as last night, shallow bucket of water and Q-tip swab to rid the fins of what was left of the white fuzz, medicated with the blue liquid that also helps fin rot...
VJ: White fuzz sounds like fungus to me, not a bacterial infection but I am not sure. When fungus eats through below surface, tissue and redness become exposed.

JM: ... Interesting new development though, I noticed a few small hard bumps on his fins, I didn't pick at them, just swabbed what I could and medicated. I'm not sure what these tiny bumps mean? And they feel hard.
VJ: No clue.

JM: I'm wondering if I could give this method a shot in the morning? I'm unsure if this is safe to try with a paroon, I have salt in the tank regardless but a salt dip like this may help the fin rot - 1 gal of water + 3 teaspoon of salt, drop fish in for 30 to 40 minutes.

Thoughts?

Edited to add - The salt trick may not be good, after reading up on it more, scale less fish are too sensitive for it.
VJ: Not true IME and IMO. This can provide more info and contains my input too: http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forum ... light=salt

Good luck, Joe, sounds tough but also sounds you are doing all you can and learning along the way... and so do we with you.

[Richard B]

While a quarantine tank is always good, I'd advise against it in the case of paroons & other pangs. They can be skittish at the best of times & should always be kept in the biggest tanks possible to avoid damage when they're spooked & bump the glass or decor.
Good water quality is a must & more important than having the fish feed: it'll eat when it is ready & on the road to recovery

[Viktor Jarikov]

Yes, good point from Richard. A smaller, different tank may do more damage than good.

[Joemartini]

Thank you Viktor and Richard for your help!

I've been on the hunt for a secondary tank on craigslist to set up but no luck yet, I missed out on a few nice big setups, I'll keep looking. Too small of a tank like Richard mentioned may not be a good idea.

I came across a herbal sort of medication, I'm not at home right now but I will post the name of it later, the guy at the fish store seemed to know what I was saying to him and said that this medication won't harm the other fish in the tank but it should take care of the hifin's symptoms, he said he may not survive as he hasn't seen a hifin recover from something like this before but said to give it a shot.

After reading through all your posts, which was helpful on these decisions and I thank you , I'm going to give it a shot with the salt dip tonight and start the herbal med solution in the tank, might do a little less salt after reading the article but still enough that it'll be a medicinal dose.

May also try to force feed him but I'll see what he looks like after applying meds for the night/day and decide from there. He's swimming fine, some of the bumps are slightly larger today but he is acting normal otherwise, besides not eating. He approaches the front of the tank when I come up just as all my cats do so at least he is still mobile and looks to be following some normal habits during the day.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Probaby Melafix and Pimafix. No consensus on these: both experts and amatures claim/report/describe some positive expected effects of healing abrasions, bites, scratches, fin rips and other minor wounds (no one can claim that these wounds would not have healed up on their own at the same pace) and even unexpected effects, like clearing an eye infection, but equally (?) many say there is no effect, waste of money. No harm in trying, except if this is a serious infection or a fungus, a strong antibiotic is better. Mela and Pima are mild, superficial anticeptics, derived from maleuca trees, again, if memory serves.

[Joemartini]

It's not mela or Pima, I was informed to stay away from those when I only had bettas as it is dangerous for them.
I'm guessing it would be fine for most bish buy I didn't even consider looking at those solutions as I just figured it would not go over well with scale less fish?

[Joemartini]

Salt bath went well, I applied the meds too and will continue with this current routine everyday. I hope he can get on the route to recovery quickly, in the meantime I will continue to research what else I can do.

The meds I picked up was Microbe-Lift Herbal Actives Artemiss. It says to to a 10 day course but the guy at the LFS said to continue for 14 days straight and monitor for progress.

[Viktor Jarikov]

It's not mela or Pima, I was informed to stay away from those when I only had bettas as it is dangerous for them.
I'm guessing it would be fine for most bish buy I didn't even consider looking at those solutions as I just figured it would not go over well with scale less fish?

AFAIK there are no counterindications for the scaleless fish. I used it on all my cats and have not noticed any deleterious effects.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Salt bath went well, I applied the meds too and will continue with this current routine everyday. I hope he can get on the route to recovery quickly, in the meantime I will continue to research what else I can do.

The meds I picked up was Microbe-Lift Herbal Actives Artemiss. It says to to a 10 day course but the guy at the LFS said to continue for 14 days straight and monitor for progress.

Interesting. Never heard of it, never used. Microbe-Lift is a rather well-known Co manufacturing bacterial products of various kinds, including those needed for ponds and other healthy water bodies, nitrifying bacteria, sludge-processing bacteria, etc. Here is what people that aim to sell it have to say (http://www.tropicalmarinereef.com/micro ... llent.html):

"Microbe-Lift Herbal Actives Artemiss Bacterial Disease Expellent is 100% Natural Expellant and provides a chemical-free treatment effective against bacterial diseases including: Bacterial dropsy, Bulging eyes, Fungus, Ulcers, Milky skin, Mouth rot, Fin/tail rot, Raised scales. MICROBE-LIFT/Artemiss is a unique, herbal, immune-enhancing stimulant, which reduces bacterial and fungal infections. Will help boost the natural immune system of the fish with no risk of building up future resistance as can occur when antibiotics are used. Will help to drive pathogenic bacteria off the fish, and, without a host, ultimately the bacteria will die. Stimulates and accelerates regeneration of damaged tissue until no trace of the wound remains."

[Joemartini]

He's still hanging in, poor guy. His color is pale, the bumps haven't gotten any bigger and the fuzz is now gone but still not eating and his tail started some form of fin rot right when I started the meds, it seems to have stopped currently. Still performing salt dips every day too.

The herbal meds don't bother the other guys at all which is great but I'm still going to try to set up a hospital tank as my 120g won't be ready for a bit yet. Looking at a 50g setup tonight, fingers crossed it holds water and I can bring it home immediately.

[Joemartini]

Meds must be doing something right, Mr Shark has eaten a meal tonight

Lets hope this healing process continues strongly.

[Joemartini]

All is well again. He's bulking back up and the only thing that remains is a few of the bumps on his dorsal and pectoral fins. Still continuing the remainder of the treatment just in case.