Mustard spot pleco (Panaqolus albomaculatus) project

[pleconut]

Hi Eric, in terms of how you got your mustard spots feeding, and then improving in condition, obviously you've done a good job, both with these and the orange seam plecos. Did you find it easier to get them used to one food at a time. Or did you have the approach of putting a larger variety of food in, hoping some gets eaten, as i have done. Obviously with the Panoquolus its wood that's the main diet, i should think not much else is any good without the necessary wood required to digest it. My pair, the first one I got eats carrots, has eaten small amounts of repashy morning wood for the first day he ate the other foods i provided, but now most other commercial foods go uneaten. To me it seems it is far more paramount to maintain good water quality, (if anything this will prevent them eating at all) , than putting food in that's not eaten allowing them to eat wood, veg, some small quantities of repashy gel food, then gradually adding things in for variety once they get accustomed to the food but one at a time.

[bekateen]

Hi Teresa,

I hate to disappoint you, but I didn't really have a plan when I introduced new foods, other than to introduce them in order of what I hoped would be preference. For the mustard spots, that was wood first, supplemented after a few days with algae wafers and "omnivore" wafers, a slice of fresh sweet potato, and a couple of thawed "cocktail shrimp." Eventually I also tried red and green peppers (no interest) and boiled Brussels sprouts (they liked it). With the guahiborum, I started with algae wafers, omnivore wafers, sweet potato, thawed shrimp and "fake" crab meat (really fish meat), some days together, some days alone. There was wood in the tank, but I didn't think they were wood eaters. But as it turned out, wood poop was produced before other poop. Eventually they also got peppers, Brussels sprouts, and most recently broccoli.

[Mol_PMB]

Good luck to you both! I have some carrots in the fridge - might try offering some to my L397s

[bekateen]

Thanks, Paul.

[pleconut]

Thanks for the information re the feeding, I think.the most important thing is getting them eating wood, but providing veg also, so i will trial a few things as for the commercial foods I will take a go slow approach except repashy gel foods, last night it was panic stations as I discovered them both breathing very rapidly, params were fine, but obviously I dramatically increased surface agitation, Im relieved to find they were both ok this morning.

[pleconut]

There was lots of information shared earlier in this thread regarding wood for plecos.

Can anyone identify this wood for me. Here's a pic.

It's been in my L397 tank since I got them. It was purchased at an LFS. My L397s climb on it like monkeys, i frequently find them high up on the branches after lights go out, there is a few branches in their tank. I'm not certain it actually gets eaten but it is kept clean by them i should think submerged wood like this is part of the natural environment. My ABNs like it also and its now fairly soft. I'm stripping the bark and will get some sandpaper to finish it. I was thinking of then putting it in with the mustard spots.

[bekateen]

A steel bristle brush might make faster work for you to strip the bark.

It's a pretty piece of wood. Did the LFS not know the type of wood they were selling?

Cheers, Eric

[pleconut]

They sell it a lot, at a good price as well, they dont have a label for it, its sold by weight id have to ask next time and let you know. It floats at first and becomes fungus covered the ABNs love it when its like this.

[Jools]

I think it's a vine of some sort.

Jools

[pleconut]

Thanks Jools, I got it at Maidenhead Aquatics, along with some others. I think it may be called fishkeeper up in Scotland but I'm not sure, you most likely know the chain of LFS, i dont think the Panoquolus eat it, but they do keep it clean eating the biofilm from it with their monkey antics

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I think it's a vine of some sort.

I think it is grape vine (Vitis) as well.

cheers Darrel

[pleconut]

Thanks for the information, I borrowed this, obviously from my L397s tank,at some point, I will replace it, after the ABNs eat all the initial fungal growth from it.

[racoll]

I used exactly the same vine wood (also from MA), and the

Panaqolus

loved it. They pretty much ate all of it.

You don't need to remove the bark. They will work their way through it.

[pleconut]

Some of the bark was removed, some wasn't though, I left it as it is in the picture, so they get can some much needed wood, as is the biggest priority. I shouldn't think wood submerged in the Amazon doesn't have bark removed, though it's probably been there for so long, it's so soft so they can eat it easily. On a positive note, my males belly doesn't look as shrunken in as it was now.

[pleconut]

Hi Eric, again here's another feeding related tip for you. I've been feeding Vitalis (formerly known as new era) rift lake green i put some pellets in last night all gone this morning. Another one they go for is King British catfish pellets but I use with caution as protein is 50% composition, so obviously not too much. You may not be able to get them in the US anyway.

EDIT. My L397s love the rift lake green.

[bekateen]

Thanks, Teresa.

[pleconut]

This one sounds a bit weird, although I'll share it. I removed a piece of courgette - zucchini - that my L397s had taken some bites from, then gave it to the Mustard spots, I'm not sure if they thought it was then safe to eat it, because someone else did, it was a theory that it might actually work, but they have eaten some, even though they had not touched it before when its been going in since I got them. Strange!

[bekateen]

With all the bad news lately, I'd love to discover that there's an alternate light source (figuratively), as my mustard spots may finally be getting down to business. At the end of the video, my camera spooked one fish away, so I hope they don't lose interest and get back together soon. If they do spawn, it will be the first time for my mustard spots. I'd be elated! Fingers crossed! (of course, they might just be fighting over caves, but I don't want to consider that right now).

Cheers, Eric

P.S., don't mind the teenager who is raging over his video game in the background audio; I wish the mute button on my remote control worked on more than just my TV. LOL

Direct link to video: Mustard spot plecos (Panaqolus albomaculatus) prelude to spawning?

[pleconut]

Awesomeness Eric!! Really hope you get some good luck. My three i think 2 females 1 male. All fully recovered from the the situation before the rescue. Really tempted now too put them back into a species tank on my Panaque rack with the new L397s.

[bekateen]

Hi All,

Today I had an interesting treat, something I've witnessed only once before:

After putting live black worms (possibly Tubifex worms, but not likely as I'm told those aren't sold routinely in California pet shops any more) into a feeder for my gold tetras and oil cats, I caught my mustard spot plecos coming out of hiding and swimming to the top of the tank to feast in the live worms. It's quite a sight. I hope you enjoy the video:

Cheers, Eric

Direct link: Mustard spot pleco (Panaqolus albomaculatus) eating live black worms

[pleconut]

Cool! (S)he's obviously quite partial to a meaty treat once in a while as you know plecos are quite adept if they want to eat something. Chances are they'd sampled a meaty treat and this one was making interesting use of its adaptable nature. My three turned out to be the greediest plecos I had! They ate non stop, but I never saw them eating much other than wood or algae wafers though. But with various foods going in they possibly did. I say were. As my guys a male and 2 females were rehomed last week to make way for new projects. By time they left the three looked like they needed to go to weight watchers.

[Jobro]

Wow, I never had my plecos hunt for live food

Quite a feat to swim up there and suck them out of the feeder.

Eric, what size are your Albomaculatus? Any more signs of breeding activity?

[bekateen]

Thanks, Teresa and Jobro.

As my guys a male and 2 females were rehomed last week to make way for new projects. By time they left the three looked like they needed to go to weight watchers.

I'm sure your mustard spots were very happy in the home you created for them. I imagine it was difficult for you to let them go.

Quite a feat to swim up there and suck them out of the feeder.

Eric, what size are your Albomaculatus? Any more signs of breeding activity?

Yes, it seemed like they were expending a lot of effort and energy to hang there in open water while feeding on those worms.

I haven't taken them out for another measure, but they look only slightly longer than when I first bought them. And yet they do look "bigger" to me, much bulkier at least.

No, no more signs of spawning, but their behaviors have changed dramatically in recent weeks.

• First, they are much more active and out-and-about than they used to be (they used to spend all day hiding in caves, each fish in its own cave).
• Second, they have been a little aggressive with each other lately, chasing one-another about the tank if one fish gets too close. On some occasions, it appears that one fish will approach another just let the other know "I am here." The challenges don't appear to be serious, but definitely more frequent.
• And third, at least two are really hunting the meaty foods - probably all three are, but I can't easily tell them apart unless they are all sitting side-by-side (which they don't do).

I've seen the meat hunt in three different ways:

• Stealing worms from the feeder (as in the video on the previous page, Mustard spot pleco (Panaqolus albomaculatus) eating live black worms),
• digging in the sand to suck up live worms from the sand (there are lots of live worms in the sand),
• and also they've been very interested in boiled clam meat.

I boil fresh live clams, then remove them from their shells and freeze them individually. Then, I'll defrost one and impale it on a bamboo shish kabob stick, then place that in the tank (I was dumb here - I removed both halves of the clam shell, but I should have left the meat attached to one side, and that way I could have used the clam shell to force the meat to sink without needing the bamboo sticks... hopefully I remember this for my next batch of clams).

Originally, I started adding clams for the hypans in the tank, but the mustard spots really like clams. In fact, I've seen two mustard spots repeatedly contest each other for "feeding rights" - access to the clam. So now I put two clams in the tank at the same time, in different areas of the tank and away from cave mouths. Now I find two mustard spots gorging on clams at once.

Cheers, Eric

[pleconut]

Clams, prawn, mussels ect went into the tank. I don't doubt they tried some right little fatties lol. And yes my three lived in a huge piece of wood so there was always evidence that panoqolus were about. This wood was raised up from the substrate. There is a light behind the background and I witnessed constant chasing. Because two were female I did wonder some days if it was spawning related. I was curious to keep them and find out if this was to be the case. Alas, because of personal circumstances and the time left for other projects I'm wanting to concentrate on, like my L397s. I whittled things right back with regrets obviously. I Would have loved to have seen them spawn

[Jobro]

Thanks, Teresa and Jobro.
I haven't taken them out for another measure, but they look only slightly longer than when I first bought them. And yet they do look "bigger" to me, much bulkier at least.

So, 70-80mm SL I assume? I think some of my P. Albivermis are getting in that same size now. Will need to get them their own tank in 6 Months or so. I thought they need to be bigger.

[bekateen]

Yes, that size sounds about right. If I recall correctly, they were 65-75 mm when I bought them nine months ago. I think you're right about size and spawning too. Although I still think, when I examine them, that I have one male and probably two females, the "male" is not yet very hairy - his odontodes are really small. So even at this size, they may not be fully mature... Perhaps they are able to spawn if they try (I.e., they're fertile), but behaviorally they haven't gained an interest in sex yet; that's my impression, anyway.

[pleconut]

It's a guesstimate, as I didn't measure him, but I reckon my male hit about 8-9, probably closer to 8 I reckon, in SL. (That's not including the tail itself). He then developed really impressive rear odontodes he had them buy only just at purchase. Also he didn't grow much at all in length since the purchase either- just outwards . But his poor condition at purchase may have possibly inhibited odontode growth. But as the condition of the group improved, possibly having mature, but slightly smaller sized females, in his presence may have helped.

[bekateen]

And third, at least two are really hunting the meaty foods.

I've seen the meat hunt in three different ways: Stealing worms from the feeder (as in the video), digging in the sand to suck up live worms from the sand (there are lots of live worms in the sand), and also they've been very interested in boiled clam meat... Originally, I started adding clams for the hypans in the tank, but the mustard spots really like clams. In fact, I've seen two mustard spots repeatedly contest each other for "feeding rights" - access to the clam. So now I put two clams in the tank at the same time, in different areas of the tank and away from cave mouths. Now I find two mustard spots gorging on clams at once.

I just reread the very first post in this thread (http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 03#p289491), written immediately after I bought the mustard spots, at a time when I was trying to figure out what to feed them. In that first post, I asked about food preferences. Since mustard spots are Panaqolus, I expected they are wood eaters (which they are); and yet, their CLOG page says this about their food needs:

Sinking pellets, live and frozen worm type foods.

Of course, it's basic knowledge that even Panaqolus will take some meaty foods once in a while, especially when conditioning for spawning. I'm not questioning that, but I never understood why that particular text was put in the food preferences for this species, since no other Panaqolus has this text listed for its food preference. But now that I've witnessed my own mustard spots ravenously consume live black worms and boiled clam (and rather aggressively too, since they chase other individuals away from the clams to gain access), I can understand why this might stand out as a comment for these fish. I've given the same clams to my clown plecos (P. maccus). They too feed on the clams, but they are not aggressive like the mustard spots and they don't chase other individuals away from the food. Maybe that's because my clown plecos are so much smaller than the mustard spots, and therefore 2 or 3 clowns can be feeding on the same clam at once without a problem; by contrast, a single mustard spot will smother a whole clam with its body while feeding, leaving no access for other mustard spots to share at the same time (which is pretty obvious an idea, actually).

I'm not willing to take this too far, to its potentially obvious implication: I don't mean to suggest that mustard spots, out of all Panaqolus, are meat eaters like Hypans. But perhaps mustard spots just possess a little more zeal for the meats? To answer this, I need people who've kept other Panaqolus species to respond with just how eagerly their Panaqolus attack meats.

Anyone care to share their observations about other Panaqolus (albivermis, changae, or the various larger-sized L numbers in the genus, etc.) and their zeal for meats?

Cheers, Eric

[pleconut]

As mentioned Eric, there was a lot of chasing it possibly could have been food related. Seemed to occur a lot more around feeding time. The flash pleco lived and caved in that wood. So all I'd see similar sized is plecos chasing eachother, whether the flash pleco had a taste for meat, I can't be definatively sure as I'd not ever seen him eat, he must have though as he was healthy and growning. However I didn't ever see the panoqolus sp in the tank chase the other plecos from other generas in the tank away from food they were the biggest ones. But all appeared to be getting food.
Edit. FYI. Because the hypans caved in the wood, was a huge piece. The meaty foods are deliberately put in that area as Iknow they can be shy feeders. Wasn't expecting the panoqolus to bother with it...but maybe they was.

[bekateen]

UPDATE: I was finally able to take time to make some new videos of the mustard spots. I'm still trying to figure out if I can sex them with any confidence. I'll be posting (not all at once) three videos of the fish, from above, from the sides, and from below. The first video is from above, dorsal views of each fish.

From the videos, it's clear to me that all the fish have some growing out to do. First, none of them have really big odontodes on their posterior body sides. Second, if there are any females in the group, none of them are particularly round.

However, as can be seen in this first video, there is a slight difference in the width of the body across the pelvic area when comparing the 70 mm SL fish (probable male) to the other two fish, especially to the 75 mm fish (probable female, or so I hope). The smallest fish (65 mm SL) may be either a female or a subordinate male. After almost three months in my possession, both the largest and smallest fish continue to have smaller pectoral odontodes than the medium sized fish.

Behaviorally, I just introduced my new home-made pleco caves a few days ago in this tank. At first, I saw only the 70 mm (male?) in a cave, which made me more hopeful of gender. Alas, this morning I awoke to find a different fish in the cave (alone), so being in a cave means either that I have more than one male, or it means nothing at all...

Obviously, I'm looking at three fish that all can easily pass as unsexable: Really, none of them show strong sexual dimorphism at this time. What I'm trying to accomplish here is to identify slight differences in body shape that I can track, to see if they ultimately become good predictors of gender for the fish as the fish eventually mature and fill-out as male/female.

After watching the video, do you have any opinions as to gender?

Sexing mustard spot plecos (Panaqolus albomaculatus) dorsal views

Here is the next video: It shows each fish from a ventral view, with the bodies pressed up against the side of the aquarium. I've read elsewhere that this can help sex animals (by comparing the genital papillae), but honestly I did not find this view to be informative for these mustard spot plecos. It is much easier for me to look at the fish while they are suspended in air in order to look for differences in genital papillae (that will be the next video posted), which won't be until later).

Sexing mustard spot plecos (Panaqolus albomaculatus) ventral views against aquarium wall

Here is the last new video of these fish: It shows each fish from a lateral view and a ventral view, with the bodies held out of water in air. Although I'm still unconvinced that ANY of these fish are definitely females, this out-of-air video reinforces my impression that the largest fish is a female, and the middle-sized fish is a male (and the smallest is still ambiguous).

Sexing mustard spot plecos (Panaqolus albomaculatus) side views and ventral views out of water

It's very difficult to tell with certainty. That's why I'm taking the photos and videos of these albomaculatus now, when gender is not definitive, and likewise for my mature but out-of-condition guahiborum. These threads are collecting "early" observations, as discussed in an older thread (Re: Sexing Panaqolus maccus? Spawning at last!) to see if we can accurately predict gender of fish before their sexually-dimorphic traits are clear. Why? Because typically we never find well-conditioned fish for sale in stores; we find juvies and out-of-condition adults.

If I'm correct (and fortunate, LOL), I have one male, one female, and one unknown albomaculatus... But only time will tell.

UPDATE: It's been almost 11 months since I bought these mustard spots. For the last 8 months or so, they've been in a 20gal high aquarium with 6 Centromochlus perugiae, eight small black & white lined hypans, and three L201 big spots.

Although I still think, when I examine them, that I have one male and probably two females, the "male" is not yet very hairy - his odontodes are really small. So even at this size, they may not be fully mature...

As I reported recently, the mustard spots have really taken a liking to meaty foods - live black worms and boiled clams on the half shell. I suspect as a result of that rich food, the animals are finally starting to really show their gender, and so far what I'm seeing is consistent with what was inferential when I bought them: In just one month, the middle-sized fish has developed lush odontodes on his caudal peduncle and is clearly a male (he had no odontodes as recently as the start of July).

Neither the larger nor the smaller specimens have shown any odontode growth whatsoever. Although the smaller fish could be a subordinate male, its genital papilla is a little bulbous, as was the big specimen's when I bought it. So I'm inclined to believe the larger and smaller mustard spots are both females.

I haven't been able to pull any of them out of the tank for a proper photo shoot, but here are two photos of the male's body odontodes. Notice that his pectoral odontodes, while still bigger than either of the females' (although I can't yet show you theirs) are not very large even after almost a year of care. And yet, it was the pectoral odontodes of the male that served as my main indicator of gender when I bought the three fish. At the time of purchase, there were also ever-so-slight differences in body girth and in the bulbous shape of the genital papillae, but I was far less secure in these than I was in the pectoral odontodes.

If I can capture the three together, I'll try to get a full spread of photos again for comparison 1 year after purchase.

Now that I think about it, this also correlates with the hottest temperatures we've had since I got these fish. Do I need to up the tank temperature to get them to spawn? (I never concerned myself with it much in the past, but now I notice on their CLOG page that they should be kept between 26C - 33C. My tank is at the bottom end of that scale, at 27-28C).

Cheers, Eric