Is it a Loricaria similima?

TKP · Post by **TKP** » 25 Jan 2003, 15:03

Post by **Silurus** » 25 Jan 2003, 17:38

Doesn't really look like one, if you compare it against the pics in the Cat-eLog.

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 25 Jan 2003, 17:45

Hi!
Well I would be tempted to say yes it is.
Actually there is no much doubt about the genus that is Loricaria
loricaria similima is know to have two population, one from white water, this population has not much Black marking.
The other one from black water has a very dark colouration!
Your fish have a rather strange colouration on the head region, these two black line crossing the eyes are usually not seen on this fish or at least not the well marked and/or continuous!
Because of this doubt I would name it Loricaria cf. similima
Cheers
Yann

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 25 Jan 2003, 18:11

In such a variable species I would be happy labelling it Loricaria simillima. I've grown up batches of these fish to have them all look different. This is quite a nice one mind you.

Jools

Post by **Shane** » 25 Jan 2003, 22:34

Actually, I would go with Loricaria cf. simillima (note the correct spelling). Andrew White submitted a very nice article for the site on maintaining and spawning what he called L. simillima. While editing the article for the site I did some research on this species and I am not sure that anyone can say what L. simillima really is. The problem begins with that fact that Loricaria is the oldest taxon in the family Loricariidae, going back to Linnaeus, 1758, and at one time or another over half of all described loricariids have belonged to this genus. Regan's holotype specimens came from Canelos, eastern Ecuador. Canelos is located on the Rio Bobonaza which is a very strange river as it originates in the foothills of the Andes and then just disappears in the Andean piedmont without connecting to any other river system. Adding to the confusion is the fact that L. simillima has been "recorded" from Ecuador, Peru, Venezuela, Paraguay, and Argentina. It these records were correct (and I do not believe they all are) then L. simillima would be the most widely distributed freshwater fish in South America. I guess my final point is that until the genus is better sorted out, it may be impossible to know what species L. simillima really is. Regan described his holotype as "Olivaceous; fins, except the anal, with dark spots or blotches, or uniform blackish." That is the only description we have to go on as after 100 years in alcohol the holotypes are bleeched of all color.
-Shane

Post by **Silurus** » 25 Jan 2003, 23:12

Color should generally be the last character one should use to distinguish species of catfish. What prompted me to say that they were different was the difference in the barbel morphology around the lower lip (I'm not sure how variable a character this is in loricariines and consequently its usefulness), but it looks different enough to me to consider them as distinct.
Of course, I am assuming that the picture in the Cat-eLog was correctly identified in the first place.

TKP · Post by **TKP** » 26 Jan 2003, 03:19

Thank you! Silurus,yannfulliquet,Jools & Shane.now I know more information about this fish.

Post by **Shane** » 26 Jan 2003, 03:49

Heok Hee (and others),
I totally agree that color should be the last character used. I just wanted to point out that we do not even know know what color the holotype was, so I do not think it is accurate to say that there are different color forms of this fish depending on what type of water they originate from. I think that we are dealing with a number of similar spp. or subspp. of different colors and not one single sp. that varies from environment to environment. In spp. that I am aware of that inhabit both black and white waters (like some pims and Panaque nigrolineatus) they are still all the same color no matter what type of water they are found in. I have noted that in some cichlids, the coloration is brighter in specimens collected from white waters (probably due to reduced visibility). However, the bright colors fade to normal if the fish is placed in clear water.
Given the taxonomic state of the genus, of which Isbrucker (1972) states, "The genus Loricaria is in need of a critical revision and the same statement can be made for its type species, L. cataphracta" I do not think we can say for sure that TKP's or Planet Catfish's photos are or are not correctly identified. That said, I would tend to believe that neither TKP's or PC's photos are correctly identified as the holotype was known from a single river in eastern Ecuador and there is no commercial aquarium fish collecting in that area. I have not been to Canelos, but I did spend a week in Misahualli which is 40 miles north of Canelos on the upper Rio Napo and it is practically the end of the earth.
-Shane

Charly EON · Post by **Charly EON** » 26 Jan 2003, 23:05

Hello

As Shane said it's impossible to say if this is the real simillima or not because noone reallly knows what a real live simillima(from the same area than the holotype) looks like. It would be interesting if you could learn where your fish comes from.Anyhow it shows some difference with what is usually referred as simillima in the trade (and in planetcatfish). Your fish show a longer snout than usual and this black marking Yann refers to is quite strange (even if it's not a very reliable character). I maintain and breed this species for a long time now but I never noticed these black markings whatever the age of the fish (even though youngsters can vary greatly from whte water type to black water type depending mood and specimen) or the color of the sustrate was. Does your fish akways have these markings ? Do you think this can be stress related ?

One other comment, you shoukd use fine sand instead of coarse gravel for this species.

My feeling is that the simillima/ catapracta group is a big mess and that a lot of species not always so similar are gathered under this name.

Cheers from France

Charly

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 26 Jan 2003, 23:19

Hi!

I would like to add for Silurus that lips shape are different in male and female because of their breeding behavior!!!
Cheers
Yann

Post by **Silurus** » 26 Jan 2003, 23:47

Wouldn't that be the lower lip that is different ? I was referring to the upper lip.

TKP · Post by **TKP** » 28 Jan 2003, 16:17

Hi Charly EON,

There are only two of this simillima had imported from this this shippment. One is 18cm and one is 10cm, both have the same black markings on has head. I bought the big one, because I never saw this kind of simillima before.

Thank you for your comment, I know this species will hiding has body in the fine sand.

I also find some picture of this fish at Taiwan fish forum,he also say this is new fish he havn't saw it in Taiwan before.
The fish owner is Mr babab http://www.ttf.com.tw/index.htm

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 03 Feb 2003, 20:29

OK, time for a spectacular U-turn. This fish perfectly matches that pictured in p551 of the Wels Atlas labelled Loricaria sp. "Colombia".

Anyone speak German and owns the book care to post a synopsis in English here?

Jools

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 03 Feb 2003, 20:54

oh well...

*gets up to grab his copy of the book*
btw jools seems to be right with his judgement

Ill give a short summary:
In March 2000 an austrian guy brought home 2 Loricaria from Bogota. At this time no species from Colombia was known. Flössholzer brought home a pair which he collected ~100 street-km S-E from Bogota N of Villavicencio near Restrepo from clearwater. Lowwater in march. The substrate was gravel and sandbanks. The Loricarias were caught solely in slowcurrent parts with sand. Chaetostomas in the fast flowing parts. Panaque cf. maccus was also found there. Temp 26°C
Flössholzer reproduced them at kh 6° ph 7.5 temp 25.5°C
Characteristic is the band on the head that hasnt been encountered in any ohter Loricaria species so far.
T: 25-28°C Length: 20 cm

Achim · Post by **Achim** » 03 Feb 2003, 21:16

I own the book and im german, but my english is ummm... well i'll try:

"Long time no Loricaria species from Colombia was known. The aquarist Hannes Flössholzer (mail correspondence) brought back 2 fish from Colombia, which fortunatly turned out to be a pair.
The origin according to Flössholzer (mail correspondence) is 100 road kilometers southeast of Bogota, north of Restrepo in a clear water stream. In march the river *** low water.
The still water running part of the mostly dryed river bed out of gravel and few sand banks was 5-30 meters in width. The Loricaria could be cought in stilled parts of the river on sand, where as 3 different species of Chaetostoma could be found in the rapids. Likewise syntop a Panaque species could be found, Panaque cf. maccus. Water temperature was about 26°C.
Breeding was successful by Flössholzer already in Spetember/Oktober 2000. After unsuccessful effords, where the eggs were abandoned, the male successfully looked after the eggs at 25,5°C watertemperature, KH 6° and pH 7,5, and the fry hatched after 16 days. The fry could be raised with tabs trouble-free.
What makes the species interesting is the characteristic pattern on the head. Such a "rein-line" ("Zügelstrich" in german) is not known from any other Loricaria species yet. Hopefully thru regular breeding the species won't get lost for aquaristic."

Btw Shane, there was a revision of Loricaria by Isbrücker in 1981:

Isbrücker, I. J. H. 1981
Revision of Loricaria Linnaeus 1758 (Pisces, Siluriformes, Loricariidae)
Beaufortia 31(3): 51-96

edit: Hab ich wohl zu lange gebraucht um zu tippen Christian ;)

Greetings... Achim

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 03 Feb 2003, 21:24

@achim i shortened it up a bit though ;)

btw a beatiful fish...as EVERS/SEIDEL state in their book these should under all circumstances be kept on sandy ground not gravel...:/