Induced spawning in Synodontis with Ovaprim ?

Charly EON · Post by **Charly EON** » 16 Feb 2003, 16:01

Hello

Does someone have experience with induced breeding of Synodontis species using Ovaprim friom Syndel ? Is it more efficient than the carp (or other species ) pituitary extract ?

Charly

STINGRAY · Post by **STINGRAY** » 20 Feb 2003, 19:04

Charly, I would have a chat with the people at profi aquarium in czech rep. I know they sell synos which have been hormone bred, they might be willing to share some information with you . Let us all know the outcome.

Post by **Dinyar** » 21 Feb 2003, 23:09

Yeah, maybe we could use their expertise to start crossing Synos with goldfish next! That would be neato! Maybe we could even make a fast buck or two selling it as Synodontis goldiloxis

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 22 Feb 2003, 18:24

Eon; as you might have guessed; breeding Syno's with hormones is no-go-area on this site; why not first try to do it without needles and with waterchanges, timechanges, foodchanges, etc etc before going into chemical-county?
But if you use only fish of the same species; you've got ONE point over the Czech breeders right now; they don't seem to know/care/give a wahoony about a silly thing as "keeping species intact."
Just a few hints:
-get a group of ONE species; at least 5-6
-give them a big tank of their own
-try to get detailed info on the weather (!!), seasons and the length of days and nights of their original range (I'm trading deep breedersecrets here!!!)
-get a timer, where you can put the lights AND THE HEATER on....hint hint
-feed them all kinds of insects and crustaceans
-stop feeding for a week or two/three
-start dousing the tank with (artificial?) rainwater
-feed some black mosquitolarvae, or fishrou (eggs); syno's are great eggrobbers, and feeding them some, might trigger them into "Hey! breeding season has started!"

Key word: PATIENCE (playing this Guns 'n' Roses song helps)

STINGRAY · Post by **STINGRAY** » 22 Feb 2003, 21:22

Charly you now know why it took so long to even get a reply in the first place, Some of us feel very strongly about our pet fish as Dinyar said we will end up with all sorts of cross species if people insist in buying these cross bred fish. I am sure your intentions are honourable to our trade and hobby.

Charly EON · Post by **Charly EON** » 23 Feb 2003, 00:42

Thanks for your answers :

1. If someone (SG Eurystomus ? ) knows about "normal" breeding reports for some Synodontis species (besides nigriventris or Tanganyikan species) I woulld be glad to learn about this. Many parameters can have importance in order to bring fish to spawning mood. The difficulty is to find the right combination or sequence not to list them all !!!

2. Induced breeding is a technique used worlwide. It's not the technique which is to blame ; it's the use which is made of it.

3. I have no intention to make hybrids It's a real pity some breeders concentrate their efforts on producing hybrids when there are so many interesting species to work with.

4. The correct use of this technique might help propagate some species rarely seen in aquariums.

5. Czech exporters usually collect fish from breeders (apparently also from othe neighbouring countries), they don't breed them by themselves (= not so much knowledge about the way to do it)

Any other constructive answers on this topic ?

Cheers

Charly

Post by **Silurus** » 23 Feb 2003, 01:15

Well, wasn't there a hormone-induced breeding report of <i>Synodontis schoutedeni</i> by Franke in the early or mid-1990s?

Darkangel · Post by **Darkangel** » 23 Feb 2003, 04:36

I have been trying to breed S angelicus for a few years now with out success. I have spocken to some very knowledgeable people about this but still no success. I have tried high and low temps, long and short photoperiods, lots of food very little food, tons of water changes no water changes and a host of other tricks. If any of you kind folks could point me in the direction of any new info I would appreciate it. I have about $2000 dollars worth of books and there is very little about them in any book even the Catfish Atlas. I am pretty sure I have mature fish. I have 5 of them with two very large rotund specimens(1 is 14 inches the other just over twelve) and two much slimmer smaller fish about 9 inches long. The largest has been in my possesion since 88 and the last was acquired in 96. They are the sole occupants of a tank that measures 72X20X22. Any body else trying to work with these fish wanting to trade info with me would be appreciated. Later.

Post by **Dinyar** » 23 Feb 2003, 06:44

Charly,

The list of Synodontis that have been "naturally" spawned by aquarists is quite long and growing rapidly. I would be hard-pressed to give you a full list off the top of my head, but S. schouetedeni and S. pleurops are among them. Unfortunately, a lot of the effort in the area of spwaning Synodontis is going into artificial hybrids, mostly by the Czech commercial breeders. I personally, and I think many other members of this forum, believe our focus should be on conserving species, and that artificial hybridization does not contribute to this end.

SG_Eurystomus listed some excellent suggestions for spawning Synos naturally. Since most Synos are moderately large fish, a large tank is useful, but some of the more compact species can be spawned in moderately-sized tanks. For example, I recall that S. schoutedeni was spawned in a 40 gallon breeder.

If there was a Syno species that was critically endangered in the wild and natural spawning techniques had failed, then hormone-induced spawning of the species would certainly be worth attempting. Since I am not familiar with any such cases, I think our efforts are better directed at "cracking the Syno spawning code" without hormones.

Dinyar

Post by **Dinyar** » 23 Feb 2003, 06:57

Darkangel,

I am not aware of S. angelicus being spawned naturally. I suspect this would be one of the more difficult Syno species to spawn in an aquarium. For one thing, they are moderately large Synos. For another, they don't seem to "play nice" with conspecifics.

You have yours in a large, uncrowded tank, which is of course the right way to begin. Do you know the sex ratio of your fish? Which of SG's ideas in his post above have you tried?

Dinyar

Post by **Dinyar** » 23 Feb 2003, 07:08

Heok Hee, Shane (and others),

Are you aware of any of the "tricks" of Asian and S. America breeders who pond breed moderately-sized Bagrid (Mystus leucophasis, Horabagrus brachysoma, etc.) and Pimelodid species? Is hormone injection commonly resprted to? Are there other tricks that might be relevant to naturally spawning Synodontis?

My other question is why lacustrine (or let's say specifically, Lake Tanganyika) catfish should be easier to spawn than riverine ones. Apart from some LT Synos, Lophiobagrus cyclurus and Phyllonemus typus are apparently relatively easy to spawn in aquaria. Are aquaria more like lakes than rivers? Other factors?

Dinyar

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 23 Feb 2003, 10:38

A few wild guesses for your last question, Dinyar:
-exports from the (Rift)Lakes are huge, much more than from the rivers + much more money involved = much more is known about the waterparameters from Tang and Malawi.

-waterparameters in those lakes are fairly stable; once you know those; half of the work is done!
-not to mention most syno's that are "easily" bred are broodparasites; fixing the host is another major improbement:S multipunctatus and his close varieties use Haps; S petricola and dwarfcousin use shellies or cavebrooders (all Lamprologines) and S polli and cousins do too. Those cichlids can be exchanged by any species that smells like spawning fish!
Notice that the species that probably spawn regular style AREN'T bred yet! S granulosus for example. S nyassee from Malawi has only been bred a few times; like its' riverine counterparts that have been bred; it's a seasonal spawner too.
-the other Lakefish that breed are very good parents! (lophio's and Phyllonemus)
Notice that most "easily-captive-bred" cats have parental care (Big Callichthyds, Ancistrinae, Plecostominae and Loricarinae Loricariids, Clarias, Heteropneustes, Mystus) or fewer bigger eggs (Otocinclus, Corydoras)

-The fact so much more is known about waterparameters from SouthAmerica than Equatorial Africa has to do with the fact that the last place is the biggest warzone in the world next to the Middle East....Getting shot while trying to measure the local brooks' parameters isn't good for the hobby. Every few years almost any Central African country goes up in flames, not to mention deadly diseases, very corrupt local government employess if not entire governments etc All that on a scale not seen in South America in decades....

Just a few wild guesses

Charly EON · Post by **Charly EON** » 23 Feb 2003, 11:36

Hello Dinyar Eurystomus Silurus and others...

Of course it would be more simple and natural to trigger spawning using environnamental parameters. All my attempts (with flavitaeniatus , filamentosus and angelicus) have failed so far (power feeding, repeated cold rain water changes, using mops, wood floating or sinking, caves, powerfull currents, water level changes. But I'll keep on trying

Does someone know when is breeding season (if any) in nature (Congo basin species) ?

About all these tank bred riverine Synodontis. Do you have any articles references ? (scientific or aquarium magazines ) or experience to share ?

About large Pimelodidae bred in Brazil. AFAIK They are "hormone " bred for aquaculture purposes Unfortunately they produce hybrids as well. But this is off topic.

Cheers

Mika · Post by **Mika** » 23 Feb 2003, 11:57

The list of Synodontis that have been "naturally" spawned by aquarists is quite long and growing rapidly. I would be hard-pressed to give you a full list off the top of my head, but S. schouetedeni and S. pleurops are among them. Unfortunately, a lot of the effort in the area of spwaning Synodontis is going into artificial hybrids, mostly by the Czech commercial breeders. I personally, and I think many other members of this forum, believe our focus should be on conserving species, and that artificial hybridization does not contribute to this end.

I Finland we do get some imports from Russia and many of those are Synodontis. There they have used long time a hormone-induced spawning tecnique. At least these species are imported from there to my knowledge. S. angelicus, S. decorus,S. acanthomias, S. schoutedeni, S. ocellier and S. robbianus.Imported fishes are small size around 4-6 cm long.This would speak for that they are artificially bred. Czech exporters have in their list S. granulosus which is very good. It lowers the huge pricetag of that fish. IÂ´m myself agains hybrids but artificial breeding is common in aquarium industry so why don`t take the pearls from it.IÂ´m willing to get artificially bred S. granulosus at the price of 10â?¬ than to pay for wildcaught specimen 400â?¬.

Darkangel · Post by **Darkangel** » 23 Feb 2003, 15:12

Dinyar, thanks for your reply. I am not 100% sure on the sexes but am fairly confident that I have two females and three males. I have not been willing to stress them and pull them out to try and vent them. I have no experience in this area and would prefer not to try it. I see where I should but still. As far as playing nice with conspecifics I find they are much like cichlids and once a hiererarchy has been established there are no problmes with them. I have tried most if not all of the suggestions from SG. I try them for about three monthes at a time. As Mika has said I have heard reports of them being captive bred in Russia and other former USSR countries but little info other then they are doing it seems to be availible. I am in personal contact with the Metro Toronto zoo's fish people and they know about as much as we do. It is my understanding that angelicus are a riverine species with seasonal spawning behavior. Water conditions and such seem to be unavailible. I have also been kicking around the idea of putting them out in my pond but I am hesitant of doing that. Perhaps someone has more info to volunter? Thanks all.

Post by **Dinyar** » 23 Feb 2003, 16:44

Mika wrote:Czech exporters have in their list S. granulosus which is very good. It lowers the huge pricetag of that fish. IÂ´m myself agains hybrids but artificial breeding is common in aquarium industry so why don`t take the pearls from it.IÂ´m willing to get artificially bred S. granulosus at the price of 10â?¬ than to pay for wildcaught specimen 400â?¬.

Mika,

See http://www.planetcatfish.com/cotm/2003-01.htm. There are many reliable reports from people who have kept these Czech "S. granulosus" together with real S. granulosus that the Czech fish are hybrids between S. granulosus and some other Syno species. "Pearls"? I doubt it.

Which I think illustrates some of the points of this discussion. Not only are these people doing things that are not in the interests of species preservation, even if we think of aquarium fish as merely throw-away toys for the amusement of humans, these unscrupulous breeders are cheating their customers in the same way as does someone who sells glass beads as "pearls".

Dinyar

Post by **Dinyar** » 23 Feb 2003, 18:05

SG,

I agree with almost everything you've said, but as to S. petricola and polli being brood parasites, this may be true, but I have seen no well documented reports to this effect (I'm still waiting to see yours

, and until I do, I have to reserve judgement.

As for war hindering our knowledge of C. African hydrology , yes, I agree. But when the wars stop and "economic development" begins, that will be the beginning of the end for most of these fish. Take a look at what's happening in Asian countries... In the longer run (next few centuries), they will all go the way of the dodo.

Charly,

The S. schoutedeni spawning report was in the US mag FAMA within the last year or so. I'm told S. pleurops was spawned by Winkelmann in Germany, and believe an article to this effect appeared in DATZ, but not sure of the details. I'll try to dig into this some more and produce a better list of naturally spawned riverine Synos for you.

I recall reading somethings about the breeding season for Synos in the R. Congo, and will try to relocate that info as well.

Dinyar

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 23 Feb 2003, 18:08

I'll second that in a heartbeat, too.
Making hybrids isn't my cup of tea, but the main problem is; they AREN'T labelled as such in the trade; but sold as the "real thing"!!
If those people were "honest" enough to sell those mutts as "artificial synodontis X" or "Synodontis Whateverius" it wouldn't be as bad as it is now; but a bit like the Flowerhorns of South East Asia.
Not my cup of tea either, but those fish are at least sold as artificial fish with fancy names like "Lu Han"; etc; and not foisted off on fishkeepers as a new discovered Central American cichlid (as far as I know!)