L46 and the Belo Monte dam

[macvsog23]

As we debate this dam and the outcome could we in the west not ask why it is being built?

A simple answer is that as the trade in cheap goods increases the people who would eat meat once a week now want meat once a day so the farmers need to produce more meat than means they need cheap feed that means they need to deforest areas of the Amazon to grow Soya to feed cattle
That means they need people to grow the Soya
These people want electricity
They build a dam

Next time we buy a nice cheap t shirt think.
Natural we should still try to stop this destruction but just think more people = more destruction.
Reduce the population reduce the damage.

Regards

[MatsP]

Actually, it's not so much (in this case) about soya, corn for feeding cattle or the farming of cattle for meat, but rather about cheap aluminium (for wherever aluminium is uses, engines for cars and motorbikes, drinks cans or frames for double-glazed windows are but a few examples).

And don't be fooled into thinking that the production of electricity will benefit those local to the dam - they will only see the wires up high in the sky (if they get close enough to see that).

--
Mats

[catfish-john]

I think I will write an article for PC about breeding projects in Brazil, it's very complicated and difficult due the bureaucracy, the low knowledge and the cultural differencies, even some laws prevent conservation efforts in Brazil. It's not easy to explain in few lines here in the forum.

Janne

Hello Janne,
thanks for your prompt response.
Like most forum members here I am not very familiar with Brazilian laws and bureaucracy on breeding projects and therefore much appreciate any additional information you may have which helps widening our understanding.

I wish to be more specific on one point - just as a matter of interest, the brasilian Government obviosly allows & grants licences to local fish collectors for the export of all sorts of wild caught tropical fish species for the enjoyment of fish keepers worldwide.
The Government would make even more money by selling additional licences to professional breeders (in this case identical to fish collectors) to export their local bred fish species to meet worldwide demand.
Such breeding program would dramatically reduce the number of species collected from their natural habitat and at the same time make available plenty of ornamental fish of all kinds for export bred under strictly controller and very similar conditions like in their natural habitat.

Look, at some point in time in the future the number of fish species collected from the natural waters will go down towards zero anyway due to over-collection (read: excessively increasing demand world-wide), this dam project and others which will most certainly follow and dramatically changing water qualities due to rising population etc... Wouldn't it come very handy for the Government to still have the extra revenue from licenses granted for breeding programs??

At the end of the day demand for exotic fish species for our aquaria will not stop at a dam project or a species being banned from collection for export. Some eye catching ornamental fish species like the Zebra Pleco will always be on the wish list of keepers around the world. Imagine a suitable and sustainable breeding program in place could create flourishing exports for years to come. Such breeding programs would make sufficient quantities of wish-list fish available to everybody at affordable price and hopefully keeping poaching down at the same time.

The above hopefully doesn't put me in the same drawer with those who want the dam build now. This was not my intention. However, the above idea shows a possible way out of the dramatic development we will be facing in the near future without cutting short on the numbers of our much loved exotic fish species available to the world market. The Government would earn on licenses, local collectors engage in sustainable breeding programs and keep up their income, and the world-wide community of fish keepers would have sufficient numbers of ornamental fish available to chose from.
It's a WIN-WIN situation for everybody involved.

Please feel free to discuss further if you do not agree with me.
May be the members of this and other forums can combine forces and assist you over the distance to reach a goal that could be mutually satisfactory in the end?

With very best regards
Catfish-John

[catfish-john]

To: magvsog23 and MatsP

you guys are certainly well on track with your assumptions. However, there is much more to it.
Think about the TV set every family MUST HAVE as a status symbol, let alone the fridge! Soon they want aircons and not long that they must have washing machine, dryer, freezer and so on.
The dam project brings the world much closer to the locals and as a consequence they develop the wish to live the same way the world lives - as crazy as it sounds but this is the way it goes.
And nothing can stop this development, nothing!

Therefore I consider it vital to secure their jobs and their possibilities to generate income now and in the future. Fish breeding programs are only one of many examples as you certainly will imagine...

Cheers
Catfish-John

[racoll]

Think about the TV set every family MUST HAVE as a status symbol, let alone the fridge! Soon they want aircons and not long that they must have washing machine, dryer, freezer and so on.
The dam project brings the world much closer to the locals and as a consequence they develop the wish to live the same way the world lives

The locals, as far as I know are very much against the dam project. It will kick them out of their homes, and seriously undermine their way of life.

It is driven by big business, and the current Brazilian administration's desire to "industrialise the Amazon basin".

[taksan]

Its a shocker alright ....absolute environmental vandalism on a grand scale.
Worth going to war over IMHO .....

[Bas Pels]

@ Catfish-John

The basic problem with bureaucracy is that it is distrust. If I get a permit to breed fish and than sell them, close to their original origin, how do you know I did breed al lthe fish I intent to sell? I might have collected half of them in the wild - and nobody will know.

In order to be certain, governments tend to prevent such risks.

Stupid, but bureaucracy is stupid

[macvsog23]

Actually, it's not so much (in this case) about soya, corn for feeding cattle or the farming of cattle for meat, but rather about cheap aluminium (for wherever aluminium is uses, engines for cars and motorbikes, drinks cans or frames for double-glazed windows are but a few examples).

And don't be fooled into thinking that the production of electricity will benefit those local to the dam - they will only see the wires up high in the sky (if they get close enough to see that).

--
Mats

Ok so it is aluminium so substitute the word car for food.
In the 1960,s in the UK a small car like the mini cost $500 around 2 years money for the average person, now a car like the mini but with a lot more extras cost around 1/3 of a year’s money for the average person. You think Mr Ford gave it to you cheaper cus he loves you?
Its just plain greed on our part give me more and you will take less.
We need to reduce the amount of waste and greed in the west and the developing world will not need to rape it’s self for us.

[MatsP]

I agree with macsvog on the fact that it's greed that controls this. I'm not entirely sure it's the greed of people buying cars (etc), but probably more greed in big corporations that operate in Brazil that are at play here (which of course is related to our desire for cheaper products in Europe, North America, etc).

And to the "lets breed the fish, that way we don't need to catch fish in the wild", I don't agree with this. Sure,

Hypancistrus zebra

is in danger in the wild due to overfishing (contributed to by their slow reproduction), but in the general sense, assuming the fish is NOT near extinction in the wild due to overfishing for the trade [1], I'd rather buy wild caught fish than the captive bred of the same thing - the reason being that it gives the locals an income from the river/lake. This makes them wish to keep the river/lake in a condition that allows the fish to survive and reproduce, to give them future income. Most people that live close to nature understand that you have to protect the natural resource you make money from...

[1] My understanding is that extremely few fish are under threat from the aquatic trade. They are threatened by habitat loss (e.g. dam projects), introduction of foreign species (rainbowtrout for example) and general industrialization of sensitive areas (dirtying of the water, either in a chemical way [mercury from gold-mines, for example] or by sediments being stirred up) and other human interference with nature. I have discussed this with several people, including a few of the scientists that work with the catfish I love to keep, who have traveled to the areas where some of our fish comes from.

--
Mats

[macvsog23]

Sadly it not is the aquatics trade that is threatening the fish but in my opinion a system were by people exploit the aquatics trade by imposing a ban on species and then allow under the table exporting
As for the greed principle sure the greed of the multi nationals produces more profits and more cash than the greed of the man on the street but it is driven by the man on the street.
If the man on the street did not want a bigger cheaper car then the multi nationals would just make the same car at the same price. We have driven this apocalyptic crazy system.
Greed is what sets us apart from the other animals.
The law of nature says you must F**K, kill and die. We have friends favoured football teams, fluffy jumpers and all the trapping of biological suicide.
It will all end in disaster one day nature will just flick its tail and we will go. Were will our 52” TV be then?

[Janne]

Like most forum members here I am not very familiar with Brazilian laws and bureaucracy on breeding projects and therefore much appreciate any additional information you may have which helps widening our understanding.

I'm sure you have similar laws and bureaucracy in Australia as they have in Brazil if you want to exploit animals in the nature in your country, special if they have some sort of protection. The differences may be that they have lower knowledge concerning breeding ornamental fish and the fact that these species falls under other laws. The illegal activities from smuggling fish from Brazil to Peru and Colombia make the situation not better, not either fisherman, suppliers and exporters in Brazil that not care as long they make money and are engaged in this activity.

The basic problem with bureaucracy is that it is distrust.

I wish to be more specific on one point - just as a matter of interest, the Brazilian Government obviously allows & grants licenses to local fish collectors for the export of all sorts of wild caught tropical fish species for the enjoyment of fish keepers worldwide.

Partly true, everyone needs to have a license from fishermen that collect to companies that export the fish. Not all fish species is allowed, Brazil have a positive list of species permitted for export within the ornamental trade.

The Government would make even more money by selling additional licences to professional breeders (in this case identical to fish collectors) to export their local bred fish species to meet worldwide demand.

If someone wants to breed fish for the ornamental trade and export, they must have a special license for the species they breed and export.

Such breeding program would dramatically reduce the number of species collected from their natural habitat and at the same time make available plenty of ornamental fish of all kinds for export bred under strictly controller and very similar conditions like in their natural habitat.

The absolutely outstanding breeding program is Mother Nature itself; it has no environmental bi-effects like over collecting of fish or use of Soya to produce fish food or pollution from both the breeding itself and the factories that produce the fish food. Collecting in the nature create an incitement for local people and increase the value for this part where they are collected, it also increase the awareness of nature that would be completely lost if there was no income connected to WC fish. Commercial breeding has nothing of these advantages but can be a supplement for species that are threatened or are at risk to get extinction in nature, of some reason these species is not allowed to be collected and exported.
A larger breeding project for one special species like H. zebra (or other species in the same situation) could serve both the commercial trade and a preservation program; there are no interests from Governmental, NGO’s etc. to invest in such program by their own to preserve a fish species that may get extinction in nature after they have built the Belo Monte dams. That’s the reason I started with a project 2007 to involve all parts, both official and private interest because if you can make money it’s much easier to find someone willing to invest in such project.

Look, at some point in time in the future the number of fish species collected from the natural waters will go down towards zero anyway due to over-collection (read: excessively increasing demand world-wide), this dam project and others which will most certainly follow and dramatically changing water qualities due to rising population etc... Wouldn't it come very handy for the Government to still have the extra revenue from licenses granted for breeding programs??

The worldwide increasing demand of ornamental fish are served by bred fish from Asia and few countries in Europe, wild caught fish from South America is rapidly decreasing and without knowing I think it’s the same for WC from Africa. If a fresh water species of fish will get extinct in nature it will not be from over collecting for the ornamental trade. I do agree that everyone would benefit from breeding programs under certain circumstances, government would not only make extra revenue from licenses, they would also preserve a species domed in nature and increase their income from export taxes. Maybe they could use some of this income for other conservation or preservation projects?

The Government would earn on licenses, local collectors engage in sustainable breeding programs and keep up their income, and the world-wide community of fish keepers would have sufficient numbers of ornamental fish available to chose from.
It's a WIN-WIN situation for everybody involved.

Brazil is a large country, 8 511 965 km² even bigger then Australia 7 692 024 km2.
1. The infrastructure in large parts of the country is very low or not existing.
2. The education level is very low except in some southern parts of Brazil.
3. The fact there is no tradition in breeding fish for the ornamental trade.
4. Only few fish species is suited to breed locally, most species is caught far away from civilization and or demands higher technology and knowledge not locally available.
5. If breeding a species of fish locally, how to control the breeder not mix or use wild caught fish?
6. Not possible to use the water from the river without building an infiltration facility before the water is released back to nature and finally the river.
7. Only fish species that can be breeding in ponds can be used using rainwater, will limit the amount of species suited for the ornamental trade.
I can probably give 100’ds of reasons and the fact that the breeding of most species of fish can only be made under controlled forms both by the breeders and the authorities that possess the right knowledge, not too far away from an airport that can be used for export. Like all manmade activities it can never be a win-win situation, just temporary.

Sadly it not is the aquatics trade that is threatening the fish but in my opinion a system were by people exploit the aquatics trade by imposing a ban on species and then allow under the table exporting.

Not true, the people that exploit the aquatic trade is not the same people that ban some fish species. The authorities in Brazil don't allow any "under the table export".

As for the greed principle sure the greed of the multi nationals produces more profits and more cash than the greed of the man on the street but it is driven by the man on the street. If the man on the street did not want a bigger cheaper car then the multi nationals would just make the same car at the same price. We have driven this apocalyptic crazy system.
Greed is what sets us apart from the other animals.

I agree, but a Mini Cooper in Sweden cost at least 1 year salary for the average person (after taxes) and not 1/3... so maybe Mr. Ford love us anyway
Clear facts, in Altamira, Vitoria and Belo Monte plus the area around affected by the Belo Monte dam lives ~70.000 people that already have electricity, not sure how they will benefit from the world’s 3rd largest hydropower electric plant.

Janne

[MatsP]

In the UK, a new Mini will cost £11800 (list price), which is noticably more than 1/3 of Median income before tax (£18500), and roughly all of the after-tax income (20% Tax, 10% National insurance = £5550 -> £12950) [I think there's some deductions on the tax, so there will be a bit more left over].

If we use the mean income, there's a bit more (since there are some people that earn really big income, which pushes the value above the median).

Unless everyone else in this country have had 50% increase in salary since 2007-2008, which is the data I'm using for the above, and they forgot me - my salary has risen about 0% since 2007-2008 Tax Year.

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Mats

[macvsog23]

Sure a new mini will cost a bit mainly because its now a sports car with a lot of extras but a utility car and that is what a mini was in 1960,s (no Radio no handles for the doors no servo brakes a heater that worked at best once a week I know I had a few) is just under £6000 my wife brought one. use any item mars bars cloths what you want it is now as cheap as chips in fact use chips one bag of chips in 1970 cost 10 pence or less now they are £1:00 so x 10. Now wages 1970 mine were £5: now a child who starts work will get £100 on average x 20. PDQ. I know little brats who at the age of 14 get that a week of mummy and daddy for just spending and they are working people not the "Toffs"
No way round it we are greedy not as individuals but as a race the white man is the pits. As would all groups of people given the opportunity.
That is why nature must stop us ASAP.
In general its biological suicide that we are running. Our destruction is sullen and churlish not the purposeful destruction of the noble barbarian but a low cunning offensive greed destruction not to live but to fulfil some TV driven fools paradise.

Pip Pip Chaps

[Jools]

All. Could we keep this on topic please - you don't just have to post because someone else did.

Jools

[macvsog23]

Sorry but I thought the topic was mans wanton destruction of the Amazon, and its cause?
But i will now stopp posting on this matter.

[MatsP]

Something actually relevant to the thread:
The President of IBAMA (Brazil's environment organisation) resigns over teh Belo Monte dam:
http://www.internationalrivers.org/en/node/6108

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Mats

[macvsog23]

Something actually relevant to the thread:
The President of IBAMA (Brazil's environment organisation) resigns over teh Belo Monte dam:
http://www.internationalrivers.org/en/node/6108

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Mats

And he will be replaced by a person who has the interests of ?? at heart.

[MatsP]

I'm not saying the new president will be "better", but it certainly delays the proceedings of the approval of the envrionmental license at least until a new president has been appointed - and this new president presumably will not IMMEDIATELY approve the license.

For certain, it's more bad for the Belo Monte dam investors than it is bad for those who want to keep the river flowing freely.

--
Mats

[macvsog23]

Let us hope for happiness

[catfish-john]

@ Catfish-John

The basic problem with bureaucracy is that it is distrust. If I get a permit to breed fish and than sell them, close to their original origin, how do you know I did breed al lthe fish I intent to sell? I might have collected half of them in the wild - and nobody will know.

In order to be certain, governments tend to prevent such risks.

Stupid, but bureaucracy is stupid

Let's assume the dam was built and there are no more wild Zebras any more because of that.
Local fishermen wouldn't be able to earn their income as no Zebra (and many more other species) are gone.
Woulodn't it be too bloody lovely if at least they could earn some income by BREEDING these species and selling them overseas??

Somebody said so rightfully that the local people living from the river and nature will never spoil their environment as they value river and nature. THIS MAKES A TERRIBLE LOT OF SENSE TO ME!!!

And yes, every bureaucracy is stupid. Here I fully agree with you.

Cheers
Catfish-John

[catfish-john]

@ Janne

You are right in saying that not all local fish will not easyly breed in captivity because it requires a lot of technical equipment to provide nature-like environment. But A LOT of local species could very well be breed. And this is the chance the local should take up and go for it!
And please don't split hair in saying that it may be unavoidable that every now and then some WC fish may be added to the breeding program... SO WHAT - that increases the quality of the local bred fish immensely! As long as it in the odd one AND NOT GOING TO BE EXPORTED I wouldn't mind at all!

Let's not forget the self-healing effect of nature. I have seen local fishermen eating Discus and I was very astonished. Simply because I counted the Dollars this BBQ would have cost a European fish keeper. But this is the wrong approach. The locals eat what is in the river in from of their yard! Be it discus or Piranha or whatever.

Cheers
Catfish-John

[Janne]

But A LOT of local species could very well be breed. And this is the chance the local should take up and go for it!

If we are talking about species living in Rio Xingu that will be affected by the dams, there will only be a few species that could be bred by local people. If we are talking about species living in small tributaries like creeks and ponds in the rain forest, better to protect these areas and harvest what nature natural will produce in a sustainable way even if these species would be more suited to breed by the local people.

And please don't split hair in saying that it may be unavoidable that every now and then some WC fish may be added to the breeding program... SO WHAT - that increases the quality of the local bred fish immensely! As long as it in the odd one AND NOT GOING TO BE EXPORTED I wouldn't mind at all!

I don't split hair, this is the view of the authorities on this issue and not mine, IBAMA will never say "so what" nor any other authority.
The only way to succeed with any kind of breeding project when you exploit the nature is to have everyone with you and follow the law, if not there will never be any project.

Janne

[Mike_Noren]

And he will be replaced by a person who has the interests of ?? at heart.

I doubt the politicians will make the mistake of placing someone who cares about the environment on that post again.

[Donald]

IBAMA approved the clearing of forest at the planned site for the Belo Monte hydroelectric plant.

[macvsog23]

I have just watched a program on TV about this area and the large catfish that use some of the areas as a migratory route. Native fishing takes place along these routes.
Using very simple traps and spears. Thus allowing the amount of food taken to be of low impact, they will suffer and possibly become extinct along with the fish.

Just fine and dandy then we have now wiped out god knows how many number of animals due to our greed and short sightedness now we will remove the food supply to the local people,

[grokefish]

What tv show was that and what channel dude?

[macvsog23]

one of the cable ones called extreem fishing or some thing like that
they were pulling RTC out of the water the size of a adult human

[matthewfaulkner]

Can anyone comment on the effects of fish levels where dams in the Amazon have already been built?

[MatsP]

Can anyone comment on the effects of fish levels where dams in the Amazon have already been built?

That's clearly a complicated matter to determine concisely.

The NUMBER of actual individual fish (or amount of weight) of fish may for example increase, but the variety (biodiversity) is likely to go down, because most of the dam is one large, slow-moving, body of water, rather than a combination of fast-flowing and riffles, along with slower sections, etc. The habitat diversity in a big dam is much less diverse than the same section of river...

Here's a paper (I haven't read it) that discusses some consequences of building dams in rivers.

--
Mats

[bamboosticks]

Am I justified in shouting hallelujah?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-12586170

Yay.