CaribSea Torpedo Beach Sand

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 28 Jan 2007, 07:38

I'm having trouble finding sand for my cories. I had gone to all my local LFS's, and their sand is all for reef tanks. I managed to find a very fine powdery white sand by CaribSea for freshwater use, at PetsMart. I bought a 20 pound bag of that, plus a 20 pound bag of black Tahitian moon sand. I had only 10 minutes to shop by the time we got to PetsMart, and they were hustling us out of there fast and kind of rudely even though it wasn't yet closing time. Anyway, I just grabbed it. I was planning to mix the two kinds and have a bit of different textures and a bit of salt-and-pepper effect, which of course would have my cories totally blending in to their background, but I could care less about that. All I care about is finding something they can enjoy playing in and living with. They are miserable with their coarse Estes gravel that's in there now. So am I--can not keep food from sinking into it, out of reach, to rot.

Now I am probably going to return these 2 sands, because having studied it all up close through the bag and finding a link to the mfr' site via a link posted in another forum, I discovered that the Tahitian Black moon sand is NOT recommended by the mfr for burrowing or bottom dwelling fishes.

And the white marine sand is so fine grained it has caused people who have used similar sand to go bonkers and give up on sand altogether.

But at their site http://www.carib-sea.com/pages/products ... shsub.html , this Torpedo Beach sand IS recommended for catfish. So I was hoping those of you with experience keeping cories in sand could take a look at the grains in the photo and tell me if you think it's suitable for CORY cats to dig in.

I have been trying to learn about sand for hours and hours now and all I get is conflicting opinions and anecdotes about nearly every sand option I have investigated. I still think sand is the way to go, but I just have no clue what grain size, shape, type is going to work out for my cories & be reasonable for me to maintain. I have an AquaClear powerfilter that uses an impeller, just in case that makes a difference. I know it's going to clog and damage the impeller if I run the filter while the sand is settling down. THAT much, I've been forewarned about from other peoples' hard luck.

At any rate, so far I can find only one dealer that has this Torpedo Beach Sand. It's here: http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/product ... pKey=10860

Thanks for any comments or observations.

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 28 Jan 2007, 10:17

Surely there must be places where they sell ordinary riversand(1-3 mm).
That works best. Children's play sand is considered too dense by most people, but you might also mix both sands. It looks very natural and it doesn't cost much.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 28 Jan 2007, 11:07

Sorry, I had a comma that messed up the first link I posted. If you go there, you'll see that CaribSea does also offer a river sand called Peace River that has sand of the size you posted. Thanks for your post because you gave me exactly the information I needed. I appreciate it.

Locally, no, I have not found river sand available at any of the LFS's that I know of near my home. Either they happened to be out of stock when I was there, or they just don't stock it at all. What I see is sand for cichlids, reptiles, and ocean fishtanks. None of these is suitable for my tank because they are meant to alter the water chemistry. And then there are the usual colored gravel bits. Estees seems to be the popular choice. And then there are loads and loads and loads of bags of river PEBBLES.

I think probably cories are still thought of as scavengers by the majority of the public and not a lot of people are building entire tanks around their needs exclusively. That's my guess, anyway.

On a positive note...I finally found a pet store that sells plants in great shape with no snail infestations. These are packaged in little plastic cylinders with a gel substrate. Now I don't have to be so hesitant about putting some real plants in my tank.

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 28 Jan 2007, 16:26

This is a new 55 gallon tank(it's actually quite old-just getting a new life). The top layer and bottom layers of substrate started out as planting substrates(FloraBase). In the middle are the same exact sands you named(one bag each). The fish in the tank have turned up the top layer so much in just a few weeks that the top layer is now the middle layer before I could do the final planting. Some of the plants in the cylinders with gel aren't true "aquarium" plants. The plant in the center of the tank in the photo came from a cylinder. I thought it would be fun to try. The Sword plant has given me more daughter plants than I know what to do with. So has the Java fern. Stick with the true aquarium plants and you'll be okay with the cylinders. I've seen some lately that aren't.
Amanda

kcmt01 · Post by **kcmt01** » 28 Jan 2007, 17:05

Here is a pretty good article on getting started with plants:
http://www.aquariumplants.com//Articles.asp?ID=111
Just keep in mind they're selling plants. If you buy one of their "complete packages" for a 30 gallon tank, you might get enough plants for a 100 gallon!

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 29 Jan 2007, 04:03

Wow, Amanda, that is an awesome setup! Thank you so much for posting the picture. And for letting me know you are using these two kinds of sands, too. That was the other question I was wondering about but I was afraid to ask and bother people even more, and you answered it already...I wanted to know if I would get nice results mixing the two. I liked both and wanted to have some variation in grain size and type, such as what I have seen in the stream behind my in-law's house. (And no, I can't take any gravel from that stream because it's against the city ordinance).

And thanks for warning me about some of the plants in those cylinders not necessarily being aquarium plants.

Kcmt01, thank you so much for that link. I think this re-do is going to be fun.

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 29 Jan 2007, 14:22

First, I'm glad you follow city ordinances. This is good. Many people don't bother finding out what they are in the first place. Second, we all must start at the beginning. Although this sounds like something Yogi Berra would say(he was a baseball player in the 1950's who had a strange way with words), but it's quite true. To me, the only foolish question is the one that isn't asked. Why do you think I have so many postings.

Amanda

Deb · Post by **Deb** » 29 Jan 2007, 17:26

Some of what has been written here about Tahitian Moon Black Sand, a synthetic aquarium substrate by CaribSea, contradicts what I have written about this product on this and another aquarium forum, and my own experience with the product.

So, after reading the first post on this thread, I wrote CaribSea, and here is some of my letter to them:

To: [email protected]
Subject: Tahitian Moon Black Sand
?I have seen on your website that Tahitian Moon Black Sand is not recommended for burrowing or bottom dwelling fish. I assume this means Corydoras catfish, among others.

Here is what your website says:
'Tahitian Moon - An inert, synthetic substrate. Recommended for
aquariums with external filtration. Very bold look. Do not use with
undergravel filtration and avoid burrowing or bottom dwelling fish.
Grain size 0.1 - 0.5 mm. Product #: 00821 (20 lb. bag).'

I'd like to know your reasons for the above statement. What are your specific reasons for not recommending this sand for bottom-dwellers??

Here is what they wrote back, in its entirety:
?Hello,
We had assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that the essentially glass composition and vitreous luster meant the possibility of sharp corners. We have not tested it to the extent you have. The composition of Tahitian Moon has not changed, so if you are comfortable using it, I can?t think of a reason not to. Thank you for your interest in our products and the testing! I will pass the word along.
Rick?

I told them the number of years I?d been using TMBS, and how carefully I had examined it, using magnification and extensive handling, and so the reference to my "extensive testing." I had also mentioned how it doesn?t compact easily, and a few other things that I had noticed and appreciated about the sand.

Based on the response from CaribSea, it sounds like they have no real reason for recommending against it. It is still very much a personal choice, but based on the above letter from ?Rick? I would not stop using TMBS, and would still recommend it.
JMTC.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 30 Jan 2007, 00:25

Deb,
thanks for writing to CaribSea and posting their answer. I wish they would include a wee bit more information about their products on their bags. They do with the specialty substrates, but for just plain sands and gravels, they don't even include the information that they post on their web site. Unfortunately I've already returned the bags I bought, but on the bright side, I have one bag of Peace gravel being shipped to me. I still haven't ordered the Torpedo Beach gravel--things blew up on me in the last 24 hours and I haven't had much of a chance. I would have liked to stayed with black substrate, even mixed with some white sand, since it did show my albino cories to advantage. But I think I'll be happy with the look the other sands will give me.

Well, I'm so upset. Things had to proceed faster than planned. My fish are all evacuated to the little 3 gallon tank, which is NOT cycled yet. So I have been having to give them mini water changes with Seachem Prime hopefully detoxifying the wastes enough for them to have a comfortable short stay in there.

What happened was day before yesterday, the air pump started making odd sounds. I noticed bubbles through the undergravel uptake tubes wasn't as copious as usual. So, I did the logical thing and replaced the air stones in them, and voila--I had normal air flow again. I figured the air pump was fine.

My family and I went out yesterday to run some errands. When we returned, I noticed the air flow again was diminished. I could not get the air to flow out of both the aerating air stones and the ones for the UGF at the same time. I gave priority to the UGF airstones. By this point, it being Sunday, the stores were all closed and there was no chance of getting either a new part for my air pump or getting a whole new one altogether. By evening, air flow eventually stopped flowing sufficiently to drive the UGF.

Now this is one area of maintenance I DID know about and THOUGHT I was keeping up on. I had changed the air stones in there only early last month, at which time they didn't appear to really need a change, but I did it anyway, according to recommendations that came with the instructions. This time, even keeping to roughly the same schedule, upon close inspection I found that they were indeed filled with hard water deposits. I had stopped using the Seachem phBuffer powder to precipitate calcium and other minerals, and I think that has caused the rate at which deposits clog up my equipment to increase.

Well anyway, it killed my air pump. My husband is picking up a new one on his way home. I know I could change the diaphragm out of it, but I did not see replacement parts at the LFS, otherwise I would have kept spares in stock, like I do for air stones.

Meanwhile nitrites were spiraling upward at an alarming rate. I knew to expect a nitrite spike since my tank is undergoing a mini-recycle due to my mismanagement (overzealous cleaning) but the spikeyness of the spike was just plain odd in light of the fact I had been doing water changes all throughout the weekend, several times a day, to offset such spikes.

Even the ammonia, which had previously read 0 for the past few days, was climbing from 0 to almost, but not quite the next color up on my test kit.

I can't imagine that my UGF water flow slowing down has anything to do with my nitrite and ammonia readings going up, because I do also run a HOB filter that has gotten some nice bacterial build up on it.

Anyway, this morning I decided if there was going to be a time to pull up the UGF, this would be it, because after reading and struggling to understand the pros and cons of UGF's, I was worried, perhaps wrongly, that when I did get the new air pump going with it, that it would spew stale crap out at my fish. So, I evacuated the fish, pulled out the UGF, replaced most of the water, and when the new water finally heats up to the same temp as that in the temporary tank, I'll put the fish back in.

The water is pretty clear. It wasn't even too bad after I pulled up the UGF. Unfortunately if there had been anything trapped under the UGF causing any problems, I would have missed it in the mess caused as the filter plate was coming up. There were some grains of gravel caught in the slots of the plate, and there were a couple of patches of reddish brown growing in small patches in various areas of the filter. I have no idea what that could be--if it's algae it didn't need light to grow!

I think the hardest part of this whole thing was catching my C. Elegans. She is a master escape artist. Everyone else was fairly easy to net. Half the time they go out of their way to try and swim up the gravel vac anyway. They were upset at first, but settled down well in the little temporary tank.

I honestly don't know if I did the right thing or not. I wasn't about to call my dad for advice about this. I've been growing so sick of the stupid UGF fighting my fish for their food that I was glad to rip the bleep bleep thing out anyway!

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 30 Jan 2007, 10:36

hellocatfish wrote:[snip]
Well, I'm so upset. Things had to proceed faster than planned. My fish are all evacuated to the little 3 gallon tank, which is NOT cycled yet. So I have been having to give them mini water changes with Seachem Prime hopefully detoxifying the wastes enough for them to have a comfortable short stay in there.

Sounds like an OK solution for the time being.

What happened was day before yesterday, the air pump started making odd sounds. I noticed bubbles through the undergravel uptake tubes wasn't as copious as usual. So, I did the logical thing and replaced the air stones in them, and voila--I had normal air flow again. I figured the air pump was fine.

My family and I went out yesterday to run some errands. When we returned, I noticed the air flow again was diminished. I could not get the air to flow out of both the aerating air stones and the ones for the UGF at the same time. I gave priority to the UGF airstones. By this point, it being Sunday, the stores were all closed and there was no chance of getting either a new part for my air pump or getting a whole new one altogether. By evening, air flow eventually stopped flowing sufficiently to drive the UGF.

Now this is one area of maintenance I DID know about and THOUGHT I was keeping up on. I had changed the air stones in there only early last month, at which time they didn't appear to really need a change, but I did it anyway, according to recommendations that came with the instructions. This time, even keeping to roughly the same schedule, upon close inspection I found that they were indeed filled with hard water deposits. I had stopped using the Seachem phBuffer powder to precipitate calcium and other minerals, and I think that has caused the rate at which deposits clog up my equipment to increase.

Well anyway, it killed my air pump. My husband is picking up a new one on his way home. I know I could change the diaphragm out of it, but I did not see replacement parts at the LFS, otherwise I would have kept spares in stock, like I do for air stones.

At my LFS, those sort of spares are in a small "chest-of-drawer" behind the counter, so it may be something you have to ask for.

Meanwhile nitrites were spiraling upward at an alarming rate. I knew to expect a nitrite spike since my tank is undergoing a mini-recycle due to my mismanagement (overzealous cleaning) but the spikeyness of the spike was just plain odd in light of the fact I had been doing water changes all throughout the weekend, several times a day, to offset such spikes.

Even the ammonia, which had previously read 0 for the past few days, was climbing from 0 to almost, but not quite the next color up on my test kit.

I can't imagine that my UGF water flow slowing down has anything to do with my nitrite and ammonia readings going up, because I do also run a HOB filter that has gotten some nice bacterial build up on it.

You'd better change your beliefs there, young lady! The UGS water flow is CRITICAL to your biological filtration.

Anyway, this morning I decided if there was going to be a time to pull up the UGF, this would be it, because after reading and struggling to understand the pros and cons of UGF's, I was worried, perhaps wrongly, that when I did get the new air pump going with it, that it would spew stale crap out at my fish. So, I evacuated the fish, pulled out the UGF, replaced most of the water, and when the new water finally heats up to the same temp as that in the temporary tank, I'll put the fish back in.

You're not wrong there. You would get "stale" stuff from under the filter. It may not be BAD, but neither would it do anything good, really.

The water is pretty clear. It wasn't even too bad after I pulled up the UGF. Unfortunately if there had been anything trapped under the UGF causing any problems, I would have missed it in the mess caused as the filter plate was coming up. There were some grains of gravel caught in the slots of the plate, and there were a couple of patches of reddish brown growing in small patches in various areas of the filter. I have no idea what that could be--if it's algae it didn't need light to grow!

Grains of gravel trapped in the UGF filter is quite normal, and as long as there's not a WHOLE LOT of them, it's fine.

The reddish brown growth is exactly what you're looking for - that's your good bacteria (along with an assortment of breakdown products from the waste of the fish, of course). But reddish brown stuff in the filter is "good stuff".

I think the hardest part of this whole thing was catching my C. Elegans. She is a master escape artist. Everyone else was fairly easy to net. Half the time they go out of their way to try and swim up the gravel vac anyway. They were upset at first, but settled down well in the little temporary tank.

Just be happy that you haven't got any . Not only are they quite hard to catch, but they also stick in the net if you're not lucky!

I honestly don't know if I did the right thing or not. I wasn't about to call my dad for advice about this. I've been growing so sick of the stupid UGF fighting my fish for their food that I was glad to rip the bleep bleep thing out anyway!

No point in worrying whether you did the right thing or not. It's done now, so you have to work with the future based on what you done. It doesn't sound bad to me, but with hindsight we can always say what we should or shouldn't have done. If we only had the knowledge of hindsight BEFORE we did things

And there's only one way of getting to the point of "hindsight before" - and that is to have a previous experience to base the current things on - like Amanda said: "You have to start at the beginning". It's easy to sit and read about what someone else has done right or wrong, but until you have your own experience, what someone else done or didn't do is just theory. Practice makes perfect.

--
Mats

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 30 Jan 2007, 10:47

Well the fish were re-introduced to their big tank. They quickly got busy investigating the "socks" full of gravel. They seem to like the construction zone look.

The Elegans was once again the hardest to catch. In fact, I nearly missed her altogether and was shocked to note I still had one catfish left in the 3 gallon after thinking I'd moved them all back. She blends in so well, such a plain jane!

My two year old daughter amazed me by not messing with anything and generally not making any kind of pest of herself.

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 31 Jan 2007, 14:32

There's always one or two fish that will evade capture. This happens in the wild, too.
Amanda

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 01 Feb 2007, 04:29

Well I lost another albino cory. I'd had one that had been ailing for days, and I guess that was the one, though he looked a little better for awhile. But he stopped eating and next thing I know, last night I found him on his side, dead.

When I say ailing, I mean lethargic, gradually stops eating. That is what happened to the 2 albino cories I lost so far. I actively euthanized the juvenile sterbai because he was too tenacious but clearly losing his battle, looking completely emaciated at the end. The sterbai, I figured, had simply succumbed to stress from transportation.

I've lost 3 danios, starting with the one that looked emaciated and had red gills--that one I euthanized as soon as I noticed its condition, which was apparent within one day of bringing it home. That is when I started losing fish--I can trace all the deaths back to that purchase of fish. Within a few days I'd lost 2 other Danios, indefinite causes--lethargy, emaciation.

This cory that just died left behind a gorgeous corpse. No signs of discoloration, no emaciation, nothing for me to go on at all. It looks like he just died of depression. However, I know that wasn't it. Water parameters were great--no ammonia and no nitrites and nitrates up to around 10.

The one thing I have been having problems with is my water supply has changed dramatically literally overnight. For well over a year the water has had a high chlorine or chloramine content--enought to make a full bathtub smell like a swimming pool. And now--that smell is completely gone and the ph which had been running at 7.8 to 8.0 is now running at 7.4. It even TASTES different to me. VERY different. This change happened withing a day and a half. Even before I had fish, I paid attention to our water because it first started to change to the heavy chlorine and hard water quality around the time I got pregnant. I'd wash my daughter's stuffed animals and they'd come out feeling chalky. It was nasty. And now it's back like it was in 2003 or thereabouts.

I don't know what the heck is going on. The water company definitely changed something.

Anyway, the reason I bring all this up is tonight I am seeing another danio with reddened gills. Another cory is becoming lethargic. And the Sterbai are acting just fine, but there looks like little bits of fringe sticking out of from under the gill plates. I don't see that all the time.

I am suspecting gill flukes.

If that's the case, I don't know what to do. There is no way I'm bringing formaldehyde/formalin into a house with a small child in it, nor will I handle this chemical with my own medical issues.

I just got the new sand. I don't want to put it in the tank until I know that I won't contaminate it with any parasites. I am thinking of ordering a UV sterilizer.

I may not redo this tank until the current inhabitants die off--if they die off. I will try to treat them but I don't hold out much hope. If so, I will start all over again, after decontaminating this tank and as much equipment as I can salvage. And next time, start out with just a handful of danios, no cories.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 01 Feb 2007, 04:33

Whoops, read off the wrong color gradient. Nitrates around 5. It was in an in-between color.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 01 Feb 2007, 04:57

Hi Mats!

Thanks for your reply. I have just totally given up all feelings of sheepishness over any mistakes I have made or am making or will make. I keep telling myself, if I get shy, fish will die. Cutesy little rhyme to remind me to put the fish first over any embarrassment I may have about questions or getting help. I'm just going to post what's happening as it happens so maybe other people can benefit and avoid some of the pitfalls I've stepped in.

I'm not sure that is entirely possible though. I did read up and research a lot before I set the tank up. I've been keeping all manner of animals all of my life and always learned what their needs were before I got them.

But this aquarium is proving challenging to me! Somehow there is for me, a bit of a disconnect between what I have read that I should do, and my ability to implement all the teachings. I will think I've got everything covered, only to find a dead fish in my tank anyway.

There are so many variables to comprehend and manage: water temperature, water chemistry, health of incoming fish, nutrition. And at any time any one of them can sneak a surprise in on you. Like how could I have known my water company was going to change the water chemistry on me practically overnight! I wonder if the odd weather we've been having in our region caused that.

I never was able to understand how you manage both an undergravel filter and the HOB kind together. All the literature I read discussed how to care for a tank that had only one or the other in it. When I found mention of tanks having both, it seemed to imply one could be supplemental or a backup to the other. That's why when the flow of water slowed through the UGF, I didn't think it would have any impact since I had a HOB filter going simultaneously. I mean, what about tanks that don't have any UGF's? Would having an UGF with a slowed down filtration rate crash my ecosystem any more than a tank that has only a HOB?

Now that the UGF is out, the fish can easily get at their food. Flakes used to sink like a lead weight to the bottom when the UGF was in.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 01 Feb 2007, 06:19

I went to take another look at the Sterbai. I think that "fringe" I am seeing is just their spots.

My plan of action is this: I'm not going to diagnose. I'm not going to dose. I wished them all good luck. I'm just going to keep monitoring the water quality and doing water changes as needed, feed them, and net out any dead bodies. That reddish brown stuff you said is good bacteria is setting up housekeeping on the suction cups of my thermometer and ammonia and pH monitors and on the filter intake tube. My readings have been looking good since removing the UGF and I'm really reluctant to start throwing medicines and chemicals and new decor into the tank especially when I really don't know for sure what I'm dealing with. I think ultimately the hands-off approach will pay off.

When my fish stop dying off and the filter looks nice and really grungy, then I'll think about putting in the new sand.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 01 Feb 2007, 11:59

You've written so much that I don't know where to start - that's all right, I'm sure you can tell me what I've missed if you have any real questions...

Your reddish brown stuff may be "brown algae" rather than "good bacteria". It's not terribly bad and usually a sign of the tank maturing, so it's not a bad sign at all. You may want scrape it off just before you do the next water change.

Monitoring the water quality and doing frequent water changes has cured more fish than most medicines put together. Just like for humans, a good rest, plenty of fluids and good sleep will cure many things, good clean water is the same for the fishes.

Fluctuating water supply is also not unusual. It happens when the water-company decides to change which reservoir to use, as well as seasonal changes (such as dry summer will increase the hardness because the water is taken from a different source than the in spring when melting snow would fill the reservoir up with soft water).

--
Mats

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 01 Feb 2007, 20:45

Just a coupleof comments.
1.The moon sand is a type of really cheap sand blasting sand that costs about $6.00/50lbs.
2. The combination of UGF(if you must) and HOB is good.
3. Plug all the lift tubes but one and use a powerhead to drive the UGF instead of air lifts. Much less trouble and much better flow of oxygen rich water through the gravel plus a nice current that fish enjoy is set up.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 01 Feb 2007, 23:06

Lost another albino cory. I haven't changed my signature to reflect the current population because it's too sad. I guess there is no such thing as resigning yourself to loss of a pet. Those fish made me so happy. I just wanted to return the favor. Messed that up big time.

I either made a mistake somehow on the earlier test or it was done too soon after a water change, but after losing the last cory I did another water test and there was nitrite! It was not enough to fully register (match) the first calibrated measure on the color chart. But it was not pure aquamarine color (zero reading) either. So I don't know what the exact number or reading to give, but it was just below the .25 reading on my color chart. I've seen it that high before with no ill effects but by now I'm sure the fish have all been stressed so much that it wouldn't take much to push them over very quickly.

I still did not do a water change after that. I just added some Seachem Prime in the hopes that it would detoxify the nitrite but leave enough to build up a colony of the nitrite-to-nitrate converting bacteria. I don't know if it's true or not, but the label says that in detoxifying the nitrite, it still leaves it in a form that the biological filter can use. So anyway I went with that option in the hopes it is true. And this morning they were all still there so I guess it worked. I did a small water change but as the day has worn on they all don't look so good. Could be our weather though. We have bad weather coming in and I have noticed before when that happens the tank is quieter than usual.

I have no ammonia at all so I assume I have plenty of bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrite. My husband and I talked it over and he felt if I kept doing water changes to bring down the nitrite, I was just prolonging the struggle to build up a proper colony to support my fish population and that I would just keep losing them one by one anyway. So that is why I went with adding Prime.

I am seeing little stringy things in the tank. I've actually always seen them since the very first fish. It has come from the Danios and I thought it was poop. Now after watching a lot of fish do a lot of poop, I know their poop isn't supposed to look like that. I guess there are worms of some sort in the tank. I photographed one but at this point I'm not going to worry about something that is not very numerous in my tank. If there are parasites of some kind, I'll deal with them after the water quality battle has been waged.

I'm not going to medicate an already stressed tank just to "kill" something that may just be a freeze dried tubifex worm that never got eaten.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 01 Feb 2007, 23:26

Hi Larry,
I had already removed the UGF. In combination with the kind of gravel I had, it was making it impossible to feed the fish without overfeeding. The UGF would just suck the food down into the gravel faster than the frustrated fish could get to it. I still have a very strong current in there that pushes food into the gravel, but at least the food floats long enough now to be eaten very quickly with little to no loss. Wafers and pellets still make a huge mess, though.

And now that I plan to be using sand, there's no way I can keep the UGF, unless I layer something else over it. I think that would just buy me problems down the road.

I had actually read your comment in an older discussion about moon sand being sand blasting sand. I have since read that "torpedo sand" is some kind of sand used in the construction trade, as well. I don't know if that's true of the CaribSea torpedo beach sand, but it wouldn't surprise me if it were. It hasn't arrived yet so I can't say anything about it.

But I do have the Peace River Sand and it looks fantastic! The grains are a very manageable size and I think cories will like it. From what I can tell by feeling it through the bag, it feels nice and rounded and cory-safe, too. I wonder if Kuhli loaches would like it. I don't have Kuhlis. Just wondering in case someday I ever want to add any to my tank.

Tahitian Moon and the white Marine texture freshwater sand I had originally bought were more fine-grained than I really wanted to transition to.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 01 Feb 2007, 23:40

Hi hellocatfish,
As I read through the posts I was thinking new tank syndrome.
The use of Prime or other similar additives does not change the cycling time table or truly "vaccinate" the water against the ill effects until the biological filter is fully functional. Water changes are the better way or in combination with the ammochip natural ammonia removing zeolites. I've not tried them so can't be authoritive on the effectiveness of them.
I imagine you have come to the conclusion that allowing things to break in awhile longer would be best.
Kuhliis will do fine with the sand you have. Haven't kept any in many years but a buddy has 6 in one of his tanks and I like watching them.
Oh, Congratulations for deciding to remove that UGF. If you ever decide to upgrade your filter get a canister type one size up from the advertised recommended model. You will like it.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 02 Feb 2007, 10:13

Sorry for your further losses.

If tablets make a mess, perhaps using a little bit less (break them in half, for example). But a little bit of scattered food isn't too bad, as long as it doesn't fall into cracks where it deteriorates without a chance of the fish eating it.

On the subject of sand: All sand (etc) used in aquariums come from either a natural resource (river, beach, sand-pit or such), or as an artificial product intended for something else - the market of aquarium substrate is far too small to manufacture the material for that market only. So if it's artificial, it's almost certainly available for some other purpose elsewhere, be it sandblasting, mixing in as a building material or some other purpose. [I'm pretty sure those bright coloured gravely bits are used in fake-stone floors, for example].

--
Mats

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 02 Feb 2007, 15:38

I did not mean to imply that the black sand was bad because it is artficial. Just wanted to point outt that it can be purcchased at about 1/6 the price fro om other sources. I have used it but it has become mixed in with other sands now. The effect is very striking when used in a cardinal tetra display.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 02 Feb 2007, 20:28

Well the survivors are hanging in there. Yeah, I think Deb did a good job of settling the question of how good and safe the Tahitian Moon sand is. It's great that it can be had for less expense, too!

I'm actually looking forward now to moving from black substrate to a sandy colored one. It will be fun to see how the cories blend into their new background.

Cannister filters are "new technology" to me. When last I knew about filters, they were clear plastic boxes that hung in the back and had floss and layers of loose carbon sandwiched between yet more floss and I think ours were powered just by airstones or some type of siphon action. My dad also had these vintage brass piston airpumps. They were gorgeous and worked great. Sorry, I digress. Anyway, one of the first things that surprised me when I got back into this is that HOB filters now have all the pre-made media cartridges or bags available. I just remember my dad meticulously setting up his filters with all the loose media. I even remember fish occasionally swimming up into the filter and living there in the floss!

You can get loose media, still. So I guess some people still make their own filters as they see fit. Or is that for the cannisters?

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 02 Feb 2007, 20:44

MatsP wrote:Sorry for your further losses.

If tablets make a mess, perhaps using a little bit less (break them in half, for example). But a little bit of scattered food isn't too bad, as long as it doesn't fall into cracks where it deteriorates without a chance of the fish eating it.

Mats

Thank you. Well I do appreciate all the help I have gotten here and that helps me cope with the losses better than if I were dealing with this all by myself and not understanding at all what is happening.

I had read about New Tank Syndrome. But as a newbie with so many variables to consider I was not sure what I was witnessing. Disease? Parasites? Or just plain cycling issues? Or a combination of all of those plus something I don't even know about? It's been a great help to sort through everything with more experienced people.

Even if any of you think I have been ignoring advice or warnings, please know I have not. I just didn't necessarily implement things the way they ought to have been done because of other circumstances I was juggling. Like bagging up the gravel already. I was going to wait to do that, but then the UGF blew out on me. I figured as long as I had to disrupt the tank to take out the UGF, might as well bag up the gravel.

And adding too many fish too soon. I take full responsibility for that. Some of that was just plain ignorance. Some of the literature I read, I misinterpreted. And I was under a LOT of pressure to populate the tank and caved in to considerable ridicule for being a "nervous nelly" and being so conservative with my species choices and the number I had. Again, I take full blame for not standing up for my tank and calling the shots the way they should have been called. THAT won't be happening anymore. I'm the only one who stays up half the night hauling 30 pounds worth of water through the house to save my tank. Nobody is ever going to tell me what to do with MY tank ever again. I don't care how obnoxious or forceful they get with me.

As for the wafers--well the Hikari ones aren't so bad, but Tetramin ones--they just totally disintegrate into the gravel and the only way to get them out is to gravel vac. The cories and even the Danios try very hard to dig the mess out themselves. I am sure they will be relieved to get light small grain gravel they can move on their own.

This gravel was just a bad choice. I bought it thinking it was the same stuff my dad used to use, which was great stuff. That was black smooth rounded gravel with even grain sizes. It was beautiful and easy to clean. I have searched high and low and haven't seen it stocked anywhere. I did see something similar but it was hot pink and in very small bags--probably meant for betta bowls.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 02 Feb 2007, 21:35

Hi hellocatfish,
That's the attitude to take. You buy and care for them that makes them your business.
I prefer a medium to fine grade of natural river sand/gravel. They still pan gold around here so collecting my own is ok. It is a lot of work but fortunately I can sieve out some from a stream a half hour from home that is very similar to EcoComplete's Freshwater substrate.It is mostly black basalt and a little red rhyolite all within the ideal shape and particle size distribution that Corys, Dwarf Cichlids like and the plants grow extremely well in. It is "free" if you don't count all the time and work involved but it's always good to have an excuse to get out on a stream and see all the wild life. We have lots of deer, bighorn sheep and birds plus there are trout to catch so it is a fun outing.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 03 Feb 2007, 10:11

Wow, it must be beautiful and a lot of fun to have access to a place like that. I wouldn't mind the time and work either if I could enjoy an environment like that.

The CaribSea Torpedo Sand arrived early this evening. It's really nice. Not a whole lot different in texture from the Peace River sand--from what I can tell through the bag anyway. But the color is more uniform and it's golden. Clearly not "natural". Very pretty though and nice grain size--just a wee bit finer than the river sand.

I spent the evening shoveling the gravel out of my tank. There's still plenty of the bagged up gravel in there as well as a bag of bio-beads, so I still have media with bacteria on it. I figured I might as well because I was running an uphill battle against not just nitrite, but another ammonia spike, I think--assuming the hang-on-test tag is accurate. The test strip does tend to "overreact" but still, when it shows a hint of green, I spring into action.

When I finished scooping up the gravel I could see why there might be a slight ammonia spike. It was just chock full of trapped food bits and poop. Since bagging up some of the gravel, it became almost impossible to do gravel vacuuming in there. So the solid wastes just built up. I was wondering why such itty bitty little fish could cause a comparatively sizable environment to pollute so fast--even with diligent water changes. Now I know. I also know I had way too much gravel in there. Mind you, I'd already removed a third of the gravel very early on--realizing I'd laid it on too thick the night I put it in.

And still I had way too much. Perhaps it was okay when the UGF was running. In fact, if I understand correctly what I read about UGF's, it was probably necessary to be that thick. But without the UGF, it was kind of putrid after even only a few days.

The water clouded a little but not too badly. With such large gravel it doesn't really stir up much if you have a steady hand and move slowly. I did a continuous water change throughout the whole process, because the water quality was already setting off my ammonia warning strip before I even started. I actually have one more bucket of water to put in before I go to bed. I took the aqueduct ornament out. There was no room for it after I arranged the gravel bags.

I guess tomorrow I'll wash the sand and put some of it into the tank--at least as much as I can safely fit in around the bags. I'll also buy a small real plant tomorrow and quarantine it in the hospital tank. My best guess is that I don't have sufficient lighting to do any kind of lush plant aquascaping. So I'll start modestly and try and get a feel for what kind of planting I can do in this tank.

Anyway, that's where I'm at now. My filter media is all nice and gray now and smells delightfully "tanky". The healthy stinky, not the putrid stinky.

Well I had better check on the fish and call it a night.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 03 Feb 2007, 17:30

I have found the AquaLight dual T-5 lamp Fresh water strip light to be a good value from http://www.thatfishplace.com.
Without the UGF about 2-1/2 inches of fine sand is about right. That is thick enough to easily hydro Vac and still root the plants well. I vavuum right up to the plants and allow the sand to fall back on the roots without harming the plants. Potting a large show plant in a clera plastc container works well and still blends in well. Also allows you to move the plant if you want to without shocking it.
I moved back here, (hometown) because the wild is so close and as I mentioned I fly fish and it's world clas here. It is off the beaten track for an advanced aquarist but it's been a fair trade. I don't miss Seattle. This is kick off point for all knds of wilderness adventures and river running.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 05 Feb 2007, 08:31

I got the sand in! I'll post some pictures next chance I get to take some. It is still not finished yet. There are the bags of the old gravel still in there, for one thing.

And I don't yet have any live plants. I went looking over the weekend for a nice plant to start out with, but obviously the weekend is not the greatest time to buy plants because everything had clearly been picked over in the gel-packed section that I had planned to buy from. PetsMart had some beautful Ludwigia but there were snails in the tank and I still don't yet know how to treat a plant to remove any snails before putting it into my tank. So, I need to do some more reading before I try dealing with a real live plant.

I did buy a silk plant identical to the one that had the weird egg things on it. I now know what those things were--they weren't organic at all. They were drops of congealed coating that covers the leaves of the plant. My husband with his better eyes showed me where it was on the new one and on some of the other Penn Plax silk plant varieties.

I mixed the Torpedo Beach Sand with the Peace River Sand. Approximately 40% of TBS and 60% Peace River.

I experienced no real problems with clouding of water. The tank was slightly cloudy for just a few hours and that was only because I washed one batch less thoroughly than the rest. If I'd had put it through one more rinse I probably would not have had any clouding.

Let me say, those 2 varieties of CaribSea sand were very clean to begin with! I could tell just scooping out of the bag, because there were no clouds of dust coming up. And I rinsed each scoop with water from an aerated tap through a fine-mesh sieve that I'd bought at a local home goods store. And then I would put the washed scoop of sand into a bucket full of water with dechlorinator in it. Then I took the bucket when it had enough sand in it and stirred and swirled it and poured off the floating debris, then scooped the sand up and rinsed it through the sieve in a bucket of yet more dechlorinated water, rinsed off the debris, and if necessary, gave it another swirl in a bucket of dechlorinated water.

Then I used my handy dandy slotted spoon to put the sand in the tank. The Danios actually seemed more excited about their new sand than the cories did. The Danios were the ones digging and rooting around in the sand.

Go figure!

The grains of the sand were nicely rounded and the Peace River Sand was lighter-packing and easier to stir than the smaller-grained but heavier Torpedo Beach Sand.

Fish are all doing fine for now. The cories are actually more excited to have the new fake plant in the tank. They do love those silk plants. I don't think they much care for the bags full of old gravel, though. I wonder when it will be okay to take those out.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 05 Feb 2007, 11:48

Sounds like you done as best as you can with the sand-change. It's ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE to not get SOME clouding of the substrate.

I'd leve the bags of gravel in there for several days, maybe a week or more.

It's always a good idea to figure out when your LFS gets their new stock of plants, as that's the best time to get some...

[Stating the obvious as usual].

If the snails are the regular snail that you get in most aquatic shops, it's not too bad a pest if you watch it and capture + dispose of them [there's a thread in the Loricariidae section about that, about two or three threads from the top at the time of writing]. You should be able to "sterilize" the plants by dipping them in weak bleach-solution too. Just make sure you rinse them well afterwards...

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Mats