tank size for a pl*co

betta blue · Post by **betta blue** » 04 May 2007, 00:42

Need your help again. I still haven't bought a bigger aquarium for my poor Pl*c. He's getting close to 7 inches and is with a betta in one 10 gal. tank. He needs a life! I was initially looking for a 30 gal tank that my husband had to do some renovations first upstairs. I have now found a 72 gal. aquarium for sale that can go downstairs. Though we would not be able to appreciate the tank nightly in the living room. It could accommodate Pl*c for longer than the 30 gal. would. Can you estimate how long he could survive in a 72 gal. tank. If this is a bit of a long range solution, I think I can convince my husband on it. He too has gotten attached to Pl*c...Pl*c has become quite majestic when he swims! Also, I inadvertently got two chinese algae eaters that are going on 4 inches ea. Can they live in the same tank as Pl*c or are they going to fight over the same food? Or fight between themselves. Not sure if 2 algae eaters get along with each other. They seem to be quite aggressive. Appreciate any advise.

Thanks,
Shar

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 04 May 2007, 15:09

I suspect you will outgrow your caring about the Chinese Algae Eaters very soon. I cannot say anything good about them.

kcmt01 · Post by **kcmt01** » 06 May 2007, 17:15

I agree with Larry. Once your algae eaters get some size to them, they lose all interest in eating algae and take bites out of your other fish instead. The worst fish ever foisted on an unsuspecting public.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 06 May 2007, 17:51

Replace them with an Ancistrus sp 3 pleco. They are the best utilitatarian algae eating pleco available and fortunately, due the the ease with which they are bred, they are easy to get and inexpensive. Just one will control the algae in every size of tank from 10 gallons to 75 gallons and they rarely grow to more than 4 inches TL.
I presently have 500 each of the normal color form and 500 of the Albinos. This is just what a trio of each has produced this Spring and they show no signs of stopping anytime soon. I'm just one breeder among thousands.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 09 May 2007, 13:10

To get back to the original subject:

If I remember correctly, we came to the conclusion that your common pleco is a . This fish grows to at least 12" SL (the Cat-eLog shows 13.8", a measure from Silurus who captured and measured an "exotic" in Singapore) if cared for correctly. It will grow a few inches per year.

My guideline is to allow 4L x 2L x 2L tank-size, where L is the length of the fish. So the tank-size for a full-grown is something in the order of 120g (4' x 2' x 2').

As to how long it will be OK to live in a 72g tank is difficult to tell, because without knowing the dimensions or growth-rate, it's pure guess-work. It's obviously a whole lot better in a 72g tank than in a 10g tank [as it's outgrown that when it reached 5 inches], even if it's going to outgrow that tank quite soon. A standard US 75g tank is only 18in wide, so it's only allowing for 18/2->9 inches in length. But a 72g tank is probably a different shape, so it's not possible for me to tell what size it's allowing for.

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Mats

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Mats

betta blue · Post by **betta blue** » 20 May 2007, 07:27

I did exchange my Algae Eaters...they were terrorizing my Blue Betta and though they didn't attack my female albino bristlenose, she was not having the freedom of the tank that she had prior. Happy they are gone...got credit for two Otto's that I originally asked for but were in stock when I returned them. Larry, you are in Washington and I'm in Alberta, Canada. You raise a number of catfish...do you have a website?

Thank you Matts! Yes, my original question was the size for my beautiful L.Paradis Pl*c. No one returned my calls for the 72 tank aquarium so I'm still looking and appreciate the dimensions you said. They make sense to me...but I've asked a few shops and they told me that a two foot wide aquarium is usually custom made? I'm still searching. I did find a home for him when he gets too big for me...but I would like to think that would be in a few years more than now!

Thank you again for all your help! For whatever it's worth...still have the snail problem...I scrunch about 10 snails on the glass daily and about 100 weekly when I do a gravel change and clean the bog wood where they seem to proliferate in.

Still learning here!

Betta Blue (My favorite Betta that is my first fish and still surviving after 9 months through thick and thin and novice goofs)

Shar

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 21 May 2007, 11:02

US glass 120g tanks are 4 x 2 x 2. They may not be the "run of the mill", but a good aquatic shop should be able to supply those. If not, you should be able to order one from someplace on-line.

I found this with a 2 minute google: http://www.all-glass.com/products/aquariums/large.shtml

They only sell through distributors, but they (according to their web-site when entering 780 as a 3-digit prefix) have a distributor in "Big Al's" on 99th Street, Alberta".

There's no pricing on the web-site, so I guess you have to ask the distributor on that. I suspect a complete setup is in the range of $1000-1500, somewhat depending on options and features.

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Mats

Post by **Birger** » 21 May 2007, 16:13

Go to Aquarium Illusions in the west end they will have whatever you are after or will make it up.As soon as I am in my new house and looking to set up another show tank that is where I am going, probably 2x2x6 for me

betta blue · Post by **betta blue** » 30 Jun 2007, 12:28

Finally got a new home for pl*c. It's 48in x 24in x 18 in. Is that 70 gal? A friend brought over a box of dead coral for it. It's sharp and I'm thinking of getting Angel Fish to share quarters with pl*c. Though the coral is interesting, I'm not sure if it would hurt Pl*c or angel fish, though I still haven't bought the angel fish. I would like a response to my question about dead coral in a freshwater tank. Also, would like any response regarding the fish I should put into it to be "companions" to my most special pl*c. I was thinking angel fish?

Betta Blue
Shar

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 02 Jul 2007, 11:57

If that's the right dimensions, it's more like 90 g.

Calculation for volume in inches to US gal: W * L * H / 232 - to make it liters, divide by 3.8 as well.

Is that 18 inches tall or 18 inches wide? If it's 18 inches tall, that's would make it a lovely catfish/bottom dweller tank for the big space at the bottom with not too much volume of water.

As to companions, Angels are OK, I would think.

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Mats

betta blue · Post by **betta blue** » 03 Jul 2007, 01:43

Thanks Mats! Afraid it is 18 in wide and 24 in high. I know you told me to get a 2 foot wide tank, but it's been 6 months and definately time my pl*c gets a bigger tank. Been going through second hand tanks. Can't afford a new tank that size.

I'm still concerned about the dead coral. Though its quite stunning and interesting, I'm worried cause it's so sharp, it may hurt pl*c. I think the angel fish should be able to swim around it. I think I've read I need 6 angels. I still want plants in it and thinking I may need another bristlenose to help with algae. It's been this long and I want to set the tank up right. I estimate it will take another month to get it operational enough to transfer pl*c and then look at adding fish.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 03 Jul 2007, 11:24

Well, 18 x 48 is better than your current tank in bottom area, right?

Yes, coral can be very sharp, and it's not really suitable for tank decorations (it also adds hardness to the water, which is probably not a problem for your Pterygoplichthys, but it's not really what it's natural habitat is, and neither is it what Angels would like.

Plants and big plecos can be difficult, partly because some big plecos tend to eat the plants, partly that they tend to "rearrange" the plants until they are happy about where they can and can't go - that means, usually just "bulldoze them out of the substrate". Best bet here is to plant large plants with plenty of large-ish rocks around the roots to keep them "bulldozer proof".

The best way to get a tank going is to squeeze an old filter pad [fresh from another tank, not one that has been laying about dry for weeks] into the tank after a day or two of running the new filter. That will "seed" the filter with good bacteria. Common plecos are actually quite tolerant to bad water conditions, so whilst maybe not the BEST option for starting a tank off, it's certainly not a bad fish to use. With this method, you should have the tank ready for your new fish around two-three days after you got it filled with water and fitted with filter, heater, etc.

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Mats

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 03 Jul 2007, 19:37

I always recommend potting plants used with large fish.
The simulated clay pots made of plastic are especially useful. You can buy a large pot but cut the sides down so it can be buried flush with the substrate. Also place stones around the crown and over the exposed surface of the pot. This method allows for quite a bit of protection from clumsy or digging fish. It also allows you to confine time release fertilizers near the roots where the fertilizer will do the most good. One other advantage is that it is easy to relocate the plants if you should decide it would look better elsewhere. The Echinodorus species of Sword plants do especially well this way. I have grown many Broad Leaf Amazon Swords, Echinodorus bleheri to huge sizes using this method. As long as you choose a pot that can hold a one or two liters of substrate and add time release fertilizer sticks, the plant will be able to grow to the maximum size for whatever species of large Echinodoras you choose. Echinodorus cordifolius is especially well suited for fish that can be rough on plants.It is especially well suited for the size of tank you are discussing.

betta blue · Post by **betta blue** » 03 Jul 2007, 20:45

Thanks Mats and Larry. I will not put the coral into the tank and give it back to the friend. I will do the planting of my plants in pots like you suggested Larry. Pl*c bulldozers my fertilizer sticks nightly. I will also squeeze out my foam from the filters in the 10 gal. I still need to read up more on the Fluval 303 filtering system I got with the tank. I noticed that you have discus fish. Would they be better than angel fish in my tank? I had read that they don't like planted aquariums but with the pots, they may be able do okay with them. I don't want many fish cause the tank was purchased for pl*c. I won't have a betta in this tank and am now just starting to see which other fish I will put into it. This tank will be a whole new experience for me. Actually even seeing that water changes will be much more of a challenge. Since loosing the betta last Christmas, I lost an Oto about a month ago. I now only have one oto in a 5 gal. tank. Should I get it some company? The last one is still doing okay and I worry I may have overstocked that tank though it's had the same inhabitants for 6 months...2 dwarf frogs, 1 betta and an apple snail....it's the most number I have in any of my existing tanks. I totally appreciate the info you have given me. Thank you.

Shar
Betta Blue

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 03 Jul 2007, 21:51

Hi Shar,
I am not sure if you are quite ready for discus keeping just yet.
Discus and large Plecostomus often results in harassed and damaged Discus.

Except my Heckel Discus aquarium all my Discus are kept in barebottom tanks with perhaps a piece of bogwood and always a potted Sword Plant or two.
I would encourage you to research both the internet resources and a book or two dedicated to discus keeping before ever buying any. It is always best to buy Discus in groups of six or more and allow both ten gallons and 144 sq inches of surface area per Discus. I am happy to answer any of your questions but I will be able to help you more if you first complete some research. There is a paradox involving discus in that they are both tough but delicate at the same time. I advise every beginning Discus keeper to choose domestic tank raise fish, bought all at once from a reputable source. This is a small thing and it reflects my own bias but I try to encourage new Discus keepers from falling into the keeping of one each of several color types. Find the color variey you really like and then buy a group of them. The discus don't care but if you are not careful you will end up with what I call a discus bubblegum machine collection of many different color forms.
A discus display almost always looks better if it is a group of all the same type. Also even if you are a beginner you will always end up breeding Discus.
Once they are about 12 to 16 months old, well cared for Discus will form pairs. This is another reason for having all the same color form so when they mate they will produce nice babie that look like their parents otherwise you just get mongrels that no-one wants.
Anyway, just think about them and read up all you can and we can take it from their. Here is one of the domestic types of Discus I am working with.

betta blue · Post by **betta blue** » 03 Jul 2007, 22:53

Thank you Larry for the advise. I had already gone on the internet and thought I should do angel fish w/pl*c and had discounted ciclids and discs but with yours, I like to ask an expert as oppose to trust sites and my inexpertise in reading them. I had read that Discus don't do well with planted aquariums and appreciated what you and Mats said about a bulldozing pl*c. I like your idea of the potted plants and appreciate the extra info about cutting down plastic pots. I had read about terra cotta and that seems just too high for the aquarium. Yes, I do have a lot of research left to do. I'm about to hit my "busy season" workwise and would like to know that my aquarium is set up. I have a little over a week to do it or I will have to spend hours after midnight which I will if I have to. As a novice, I lost one Oto after 10 months but still have the other one. Is that okay or should I get another one for the one left? Did I do something wrong? The Oto was just floating on the surface when it died. I do know it's my "overloaded" 5 gal. aquarium but the snail is cleaning the walls better than the two Oto's did; I like 2 dwarf frogs that seem to stay together and I have a $50 turquoise betta female all in one tank. Any info is appreciated.

Shar
Betta Blue who is still going strong!

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 04 Jul 2007, 00:03

Discus can do very well in planted tanks although it is easier to care for them in barebottom tanks with a few potted plants. Planted aquariums are a hobby all of their own. Just as Discus keeping is also a hobby of it's own. Both are specialized areas of aquarium keeping.

Integrating both requires a very good understanding of each. You can appreciate the advice to take it slow and at first,and making the Discus keeping as simple as possible. For most beginning Discus keepers the best method is the bare bottom tank with perhaps a couple of potted plants and a piece of bogwood.

It is hard to know why we lose fish sometimes. Otocinclus have a reputation for being delicate and there are fairly high losses as they make their way from the point of collection in the wild then through the various players in the distribution process. By the time Otocinclus reach a LFS the poor fish's resistance has been severely run down. Most stores lose quite a few and then many of those sold have that last move to the home aquarium to adjust to and many die. Once Otocinclus have a chance to completely recuperate they may live as long as five years in captivity.

It is not as easy to maintain small aquariums as it is larger tanks. The smaller the volume of the aquarium the greater the difficulty in creating a stable healthy environment. An aquarium of 20 to 50 gallons is much easier to maintain in a healthy stable condition. Making frequent partial water changes are always part of aquarium maintenance but they are even more important in the smaller aquariums. Changing two gallons one or twice a week in a five gallon tank will really help maintain good
water quality. Not many fish can be kept in a five gallon tank. The right amount of fish/animals is quite small. A couple of Otocinclus, couple of dwarf frogs and one Betta is the most you should try. Some Bettas will actually kill dwarf frogs. Depends on the disposition of the particular Betta and how sturdy the frogs are. You could try another Otocinclus and maybe it will be fine and live a long time. There is an element of luck involved. Possibly the Oto you lost would have died in the shop had it stayed there another week. Who knows? It is natural to try to figure out why a particular animal dies but as often as not one never knows why one dies.
If you decide to replace the Otocinclus try to get one that looks well, full bodied, no hollow belly, and try to get one that has been doing well in the shop's tank for a week or more. Even ask them to feed a piece of an algae wafer to see for yourself if it is eating. That is a good sign that it is in fairly good condition. If you do buy another one I would call it good and do not try to squeeze another fish into this small tank.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 05 Jul 2007, 07:30

Larry makes good points.

Discus are lovely looking fish, and they are a special "kind" of fish to keep. They prefer soft water, so if you don't have that naturally, you want to consider other options - not that they absolutely can't be kept in hard water, nor that you can't possibly "do something about your water" [Reverse Osmosis filter is a good option for this].

The reason for the "pancake"-shape of discus is so that they can fit between roots and plants, so they aren't unsuitable to planted environments. However, as Larry says, Planted Tanks is one advanced aquatic topic, keeping discus another. Combining either with a large "common" pleco is probably making hard work for yourself, and that's probably not the best of ideas in my mind. But it is your tank, and your money, effort and that makes it your decision in the end.

I agree with Larry on the Otocinclus thing too - they are small fish, and they need pretty much constant supply of food. Since they are almost certainly not fed in the export-phase, the importer/wholesaler/shop will need to get them back to eating. This is sometimes difficult. Once they are established eating, they are fairly easy to keep. Another thing is of course that they are frequently fed too much protein, which is not good for their digestive system (small dozes is fine, but large amounts can lead to indigestion, internal infections and death from (internal) hemorrhaging). One known good food is old courgette (zucchini) [old -> leave it in the tank for about 24 hours before the fish will take it. Boiling it a bit will help soften it and shorten the "wait"]. Note that algae wafers often contain as much as 35% protein. Courgette (zucchini) contains something like 1% protein (but that's with a whole lot more water than the algae wafers, so not directly comparable). Live algae doesn't contain much in the way of protein, but lots of fibre.

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Mats

tank size for a pl*co

tank size for a pl*co

Got my 70 gal aquarium...dead coral in it?

Coral in a fresh water tank

New Tank

Discus