To ground or not to ground?

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 04 Sep 2007, 15:59

Hi all,
For some years now,i have been following many posts about aquarium grounding and personally have grounded my aquariums a little more than a year ago...But lately,some contradictory opinions have appeared that make things confussing and you really dont know what its best for your fishes to do,to ground or not to ground an aquarium...
So,i would like to hear you educated opinions on this subject and what you personally beblieve its best to do...Some say grounding does good by ridding the aquarium from electrical current that is produced from pumps,ligting and heaters but on the other hand,others(and these others most often are electricians and people who know well of physics)say that there is no electrition without without having difference in voltage between two objects and that in a closed,ungrounded aquarium,there is no electricity,electricity is only existing when we give the electrons somewhere to move,i.e. when we place a voltmeter in the aquarum,electrons have somewhere to move and thats why we have a reading,the same is when grounding,the electrons have somewhere to go...
So,what do you personally think of all these?Personally i was sure grounding is good till i read this opinion being told by many electricians on aquarium forums...Now i am unsure of what is best...

Thank you very much in advance

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 04 Sep 2007, 16:14

What method do you mean that you ground (or EARTH) the aquarium? I must say this is the first I've ever heard of it.

The aquarium itself is made from glass, so it is non-conductive. Sticking a metal pole into the tank and connecting that to earth would of course work.

Any electrical equipment in the tank will most liekly be fully insulated [it'd better be!!!] and waterproofed properly - if electricity "comes out of" this, then it's most likely very broken - a good way to avoid this hurting you and the fish is to have a "Ground Fault Detector" or "Residue current breaker", which is essentially an electric switch that detects if there's an unbalanced draw of current on your electrical stuff - it will be unbalanced if there's for example a leak of water into the pump someplace.

You may want to have multiple RCD's to create separate circuits (if your heater breaks, it doesn't need to stop the water-pump, for example). To make it "visible" that your RCD has cut out the broken heater, you may want to connect the lights to the same circuit, for example. Again, connect air-pumps to a different circuit than the water pumps [or have some water pumps on one circuit and some on another].

This is what one looks like in England: http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro ... 3&ts=18715

--
Mats

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 04 Sep 2007, 16:39

I have grounded my aquariums with a titanium probe connected to the ground...
The current present in an aquarium is not necessarily a leak from any electrical device,most times its electricity produced indirectly by the electromagnetic fields of the electrical equipment...Thats why it exists although as you said,all aquarium equipment is very well insulated...If you want,check your aquarium with avolmeter and you will see that it has a few volts...

Arent circuit breakers present at the electric panel of a house?

Thank you very much in advance

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 04 Sep 2007, 16:45

Modern electric installations will have (at least some part of) the circuit(s) protected by RCD, yes. But don't confuse it with a fuse, which detects "too much current being used", which isn't a good protection against broken components. For several reasons, I'd say it's a good idea to have a plug-in RCD by your aquarium, rather than relying on the central one, but mainly that if you make the central one break current, ALL your electrics will go off - lights, fridge, freezer, all fish-tanks, etc. A local one at the tank will shut that tank down, nothing else. The ideal situation is, as I said, to make separate functions break independently of others.

I don't think electromagnetic current buildup is worth grounding your aquarium against. You are just as likely to INTRODUCE new current into the tank from leakage back from the ground.

--
Mats

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 04 Sep 2007, 16:57

It sounds good...I think i may put these in my 2meter that i am setting up...Do you use any in your tanks?
By the way,I dont care much if the freezer or any other thing in the house go off...I only care about the tank going off...

Yeah,that too is possible unfortunately,although quite difficult to happen...

Durlänger · Post by **Durlänger** » 05 Sep 2007, 13:02

The few volts on your voltmeter don`t come from electromagnetic fields, those are created by your metal contact as you then great a "Metal-/metalion-electrode"

If you take another metal for contact with your water, you will see that your voltmeter shows a other number

That`s something that I learn at electrochemie while making my Galvanotechniker, normal electricans don`t know that

As the electricans said: "there is no electrition without without having difference in voltage between two objects" So if you have conected your tank to earth you get real problems if only one eltectrocable hangs into your water

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 05 Sep 2007, 18:43

I have felt that the promotion of "grounding" systems for aquariums to just be one way to prey on unfounded fears of aquarists to sell a piece of wire and a titanium probe(Ooh cool) to take another $20 bucks from a fish keeper and provide nothing in return.
At the risk of offending, it is much like wearing copper bracelets or magnets in ones shoes to channel your "chi" to promote healing and pain relief. It does no harm nor good.
Now, please excuse me while I sit under my crystals inside my pyramid to recharge my psychic energies.
It is my secret to breeding difficult fish.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 05 Sep 2007, 20:19

Grounding tanks is not something I am familiar with or worry about to be honest.

I do have experience of RCDs on the other hand.

On my new tank I decided it would be a good idea get one on there.

It was fine for a month, but when I returned home one day it had tripped for some reason and the tank was getting rather cold. Nothing died but clearly if you were very busy and didn't notice something wrong you could lose all your fish.

However, not long ago I left my heater on (it was supposed to auto-off out of water) during a water change. I noticed it was still on and had melted the suckers a bit. I just turned it back on when the tank was re-filled.

Later when feeding the fish, I (and the fish) experienced a series of rather unpleasant shocks due to the now clearly broken heater. Luckily again nothing died.

In just a short space of time, I experienced the need for an RCD and the potential problems they could cause.

Seedy · Post by **Seedy** » 05 Sep 2007, 20:43

Is this similiar to "ground fault interrupters" we have here in the states? They are required by most building codes anywhere there is water present (bathroom, kitchen, outside etc)

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... c/gfi.html

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 05 Sep 2007, 20:54

Yup, GFI is the same as RCD (or at least, are intended to solve the same problem - break the connection when electrical faults happen).

--
Mats

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 06 Sep 2007, 08:50

Thank you all for your replys

Durlänger,
Thank you very much for your reply

It was very enlightening on this subject

So,in other words,the volts shown by the voltmeter in the aquarium actually dont exist but are created by the metal contact of the voltmeter?

What do you mean by saying ''if only one electrocable hangs into your water?
So,all in all from what you say grounding an aquarium actually does bad instead of good?

apistomaster,
Thank you for the very funny post

racoll,
Thank you for sharing your experience with RCDs...This shows how usefull they are indeed and that if they tip,you must change the heater...

By the way,how fish showed that they were experiencing shocks?

Thank you very much in advance

Durlänger · Post by **Durlänger** » 06 Sep 2007, 12:46

Kostas wrote: Durlänger,
Thank you very much for your reply It was very enlightening on this subject
So,in other words,the volts shown by the voltmeter in the aquarium actually dont exist but are created by the metal contact of the voltmeter?

Nearly it`s created by the metal alone, the voltmeter we use as there is no other way to see it

Kostas wrote: What do you mean by saying ''if only one electrocable hangs into your water?

What racoll found out when he was feeding his fish

As he and his tank had different U (voltage). In case of grounded you and your grounded tank there isn`t normaly any / or so many that you would notice different U.

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 06 Sep 2007, 14:31

Thank you very much for your reply

So the volts shown dont exist and are a ''bug'' of the voltmeter or do they actually exist but are only seen through difference in voltage between the tank and a neutral object?

I think i got your point...

In other words you say that if racoll havent putted his hand in water,the fish wouldnt have been hitted by electricity although the heater had leakage,right?And the same with grounding,if the equipment isnt well insullated somewhere and is leaking electricity and the aquarium is not gounded,fish wont notice this leakage,while if the aquarium is grounded,they will get shocked by electricity,right?

P.s.:Sorry racoll for using your bad experience as example

Thank you very much in advance

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 06 Sep 2007, 16:44

Kostas wrote:Thank you very much for your reply

So the volts shown dont exist and are a ''bug'' of the voltmeter or do they actually exist but are only seen through difference in voltage between the tank and a neutral object?

The voltage is definitely there - but only because you actually have the metal in the tank - if you didn't have the metal there, there would be no voltage.

I think i got your point... In other words you say that if racoll havent putted his hand in water,the fish wouldnt have been hitted by electricity although the heater had leakage,right?And the same with grounding,if the equipment isnt well insullated somewhere and is leaking electricity and the aquarium is not gounded,fish wont notice this leakage,while if the aquarium is grounded,they will get shocked by electricity,right?

P.s.:Sorry racoll for using your bad experience as example

Thank you very much in advance

Entirely correct - if you have a ground-post in the tank, then the electricity will flow from the "leak" to the ground-post. With no ground-post, there's nowhere the electricity can go. If you have a RCD, it will "detect" the fault and cut the power, so:
1) You can safely put your hands in the tank.
2) Fish won't be able to fry themselves on the electrical bits (say if there's a big hole in the glass of a heater or such).

--
Mats

grokefish · Post by **grokefish** » 06 Sep 2007, 18:35

I regularly get shocks, some of which come from my fish tank. These are not caused by my electromagnetic motors but in fact my own complacency or you could say stupidity.

If the motors are creating an induced current, which I very much doubt, what would constitute the circuit?
The water in the tank?
Where would they go?

I have never heard of grounding a tank for this reason, I can see the point from the safety side of it.
What mong came up with that idea?

This sounds like an urban myth to me.
The fishys would be at the same potential as the water wouldn't they?

This is an interesting topic-o-conversation.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 06 Sep 2007, 18:42

Probably the same mong's that come up with magnets that you can put around your water pipes "to align your calcium ions so that they do not form scale in your kettle". I.e. it's something people don't understand and can't see if it "works or not", so they buy it based on what it says that it does.

--
Mats

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 06 Sep 2007, 19:24

MatsP wrote:Probably the same mong's that come up with magnets that you can put around your water pipes "to align your calcium ions so that they do not form scale in your kettle". I.e. it's something people don't understand and can't see if it "works or not", so they buy it based on what it says that it does.

--
Mats

Now be careful, Matt, I know that works because I have seen them advertised in tropical fish magazines.

Darned Hypno Toads. And if my perpetual motion machine would turn on I couldn't turn it off.

The GFI are for our own good. I did flood a power strip with built in GFI and it caught on fire even soaking wet.

I like those stealth heaters because they don't use breakable glass tubes and also have the auto shut off feature. They could use an indicator light, though. I do think the auto shut off still needs a little tweaking because they don't always shut off or at least soon enough to make them Larry proof.

grokefish · Post by **grokefish** » 06 Sep 2007, 21:25

Larry Proof!
Hee hee!

Seedy · Post by **Seedy** » 07 Sep 2007, 00:27

Larry, I completely second your complaint about the stealth heaters not having an indicator light. Other than that, short of an expensive titanium heater-they are "top shelf"

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 07 Sep 2007, 09:11

I like those stealth heaters because they don't use breakable glass tubes and also have the auto shut off feature. They could use an indicator light, though. I do think the auto shut off still needs a little tweaking because they don't always shut off or at least soon enough to make them Larry proof.

Yes this was the heater type I had. But I should mention that I think the fault was caused by me, as the heater still had some water dripping onto it from the filter outlet, which probably made it think it was still submerged.

racoll,
Thank you for sharing your experience with RCDs...This shows how usefull they are indeed and that if they tip,you must change the heater... Wink
By the way,how fish showed that they were experiencing shocks?

No, the heater was fine when the RCD tripped. I then removed it (the RCD). The incident with the electric shock happened a few weeks later.

I'm not sure how the fish reacted, as I was concentrating on myself being electrocuted.

They did spawn that night though, so it couldn't have done them much harm.

grokefish · Post by **grokefish** » 07 Sep 2007, 12:32

Dr Frankenracoll

Durlänger · Post by **Durlänger** » 07 Sep 2007, 13:05

MatsP wrote:
Kostas wrote:Thank you very much for your reply

So the volts shown dont exist and are a ''bug'' of the voltmeter or do they actually exist but are only seen through difference in voltage between the tank and a neutral object?
The voltage is definitely there - but only because you actually have the metal in the tank - if you didn't have the metal there, there would be no voltage.
I think i got your point... In other words you say that if racoll havent putted his hand in water,the fish wouldnt have been hitted by electricity although the heater had leakage,right?And the same with grounding,if the equipment isnt well insullated somewhere and is leaking electricity and the aquarium is not gounded,fish wont notice this leakage,while if the aquarium is grounded,they will get shocked by electricity,right?

P.s.:Sorry racoll for using your bad experience as example

Thank you very much in advance
Entirely correct - if you have a ground-post in the tank, then the electricity will flow from the "leak" to the ground-post. With no ground-post, there's nowhere the electricity can go. If you have a RCD, it will "detect" the fault and cut the power, so:
1) You can safely put your hands in the tank.
2) Fish won't be able to fry themselves on the electrical bits (say if there's a big hole in the glass of a heater or such).

--
Mats

Mats sayed it correct

apistomaste wrote:
MatsP wrote: Probably the same mong's that come up with magnets that you can put around your water pipes "to align your calcium ions so that they do not form scale in your kettle". I.e. it's something people don't understand and can't see if it "works or not", so they buy it based on what it says that it does.

--
Mats
Now be careful, Matt, I know that works because I have seen them advertised in tropical fish magazines. evil Darned Hypno Toads. And if my perpetual motion machine would turn on I couldn't turn it off.

apistomaster: Your joking or aren`t you

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 07 Sep 2007, 14:50

Thank you very much all of you for your replys

Still havent completely understood two things:is there any voltage present in the tank,as the voltmeter show, and if yes,would this negatively affect fishes long term?
When there is a leak and there is no grounding,will fishes be shocked or not?On the other hand,if there is a leak and we do have a grounding probe in the aquarium,will this prevent fishes from getting electrocuted or will this actually make them get hit by electricity?(thats why i asked you if you saw your fishes getting shocked when you got electrocuted racoll...was it a strong one or light one?I have got electrocuted too by the lighting fixture of my Rena aquarium...but it was not very strong...still i was a bit shaking afterwards...

)
By the way racoll,the Rcd may had detected a light leak from the heater and thats why it tipped...I dont think that everything was fine then,it may just had been a very light leak or a short duration one

Thank you very much in advance

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 07 Sep 2007, 16:24

If the tank is grounded, then the current will flow from any faulty equipment to the ground-post. I don't believe it will affect the fish much in either case.

As to your "measured voltage", it's there because you are trying to measure it. If you stick any metal in the tank, you are essentially creating a battery-cell. Depending on which metal, and the conditions of the water, this may be a higher or lower voltage battery, but it's a sort of battery either way. This is what you are measuring.

--
Mats

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 07 Sep 2007, 16:31

was it a strong one or light one?

It wasn't a strong shock. Not as bad as the time my friend dared me to touch the electric spark starter on the gas hob. OUCH.

By the way racoll,the Rcd may had detected a light leak from the heater and thats why it tipped...I dont think that everything was fine then,it may just had been a very light leak or a short duration one

I am pretty sure the incidents (the tripping RCD and the electric shock) are not related.

I shall try and explain a bit more clearly....

racoll returns from work and finds tank cold with all filters, pumps, lights off. The RCD has tripped. racoll, worried about his fish, now takes RCD off the power supply. Everything works fine from now on.

A couple of months later....

racoll performs water change and accidentally melts heater. racoll thinks heater is fine and puts it back in tank. An hour later, racoll feeds fish and gets electric shock. racoll replaces heater and all is well.

Does that make sense?

grokefish · Post by **grokefish** » 07 Sep 2007, 20:05

Who is this other racoll of which you speak?

Is it a clone that you contrived to life within a vessel of water, stitched together from various transient parts then put an electrical current through generated by the electromagnetic motors in the tank, and now it goes around sabotaging your aquaria?

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 07 Sep 2007, 20:41

Dr Racoll and Mr Hyde........

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 07 Sep 2007, 22:08

Thank you very much for your replys

Mats,
Ok,now i understood that about the measured voltage!Thank you very much

So a grounding to start with is not necessery as there is actually no voltage presesnt in the tank...
I asked that about the grounding and the leaking because racoll said his fish too were hitten when he was electrocuted...

racoll,
Yes,it pretty it pretty much makes sense now

I was missing that the heater melted...

FuglyDragon · Post by **FuglyDragon** » 08 Sep 2007, 12:06

I notice that if I have cut on my hand I feel a very slight electrical tingle on the cut when I place it in the water of my tanks, is this a sign of a fault of some sort in my electrics? or is it normal?

grokefish · Post by **grokefish** » 08 Sep 2007, 13:29

I have noticed this too but I thought that it was the pollutants and bacteria in the water stinging my exposed flesh, but now you come to mention it it does feel like a shock.