Need help for english terms

Line · Post by **Line** » 11 Dec 2007, 19:27

Hello everybody

I hope you can help me with this one:

what is the correct term for fry of wildcaught parents?
Do you call it F1?
Some claims that F1 is just a term of non-relative parent - which not necessarily have to be wildcaught.

thx in advance.

Best regards
Line

Dave Rinaldo · Post by **Dave Rinaldo** » 11 Dec 2007, 19:44

From the Glossary (Help! in the toolbar)

F0 An original set of parents in a breeding program. May also refer to a wild-caught fish kept in captivity.

F1 The first filial generation. May also refer to the first children of a particular set of wild-caught parents (F0).
All children of the F0 parents will be considered F1.

F2 The second filial generation. May also refer to the "grandchildren" of a particular set of wild-caught parents (F0).
All "grandchildren" of the F0 parents will be considered F2.

Line · Post by **Line** » 11 Dec 2007, 20:09

Hi

ooops.. didn't really notice that featur

Thx.

Isn't it so, that F1 is also 1. generation of captive bred non-related parent? That F1 just indicate that the parent aren't related?

Best regards
Line

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 11 Dec 2007, 20:49

Line wrote:That F1 just indicate that the parent aren't related?

No, that's incorrect. If so, that would mean that when you bought a fancy guppy male at shop X and a female at shop Y, their fry would be F1 as well. But -as you probably know - fancy guppys are never wildcaught.
Thus F1 is strictly for fry of wildcaught parents.

Line · Post by **Line** » 11 Dec 2007, 21:49

Hello

I think you are wrong. I was wrong myself stating that they just weren't related.

F1 ist simply first generation after the parental generation. Parental Generation doesn't have to be wildcaught.

From Latin filialis pertaining to a son or daughter, from filius a son.

Parental Generation is almost only sort of defination.
They could be related, hybrides, wildcaught whatever.

They are just the parent for a breeding line.

Best regards
Line

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 11 Dec 2007, 22:44

Line wrote:I think you are wrong.

F1 ist simply first generation after the parental generation.

Could be. My post should have contained the abbreviation imo.

So what you're saying is that the first juvies of my Singapore bred guppy pair should be called F1. Again, could be, but I certainly wouldn't pass them off as such. People would mock me for it.
Over here the F1 qualification, which is mostly found in Cichlidae btw, implies that you have specimens from the first nest of wild caughts, which also implies that their shape, colours etc. are as should be - contrary to the poor quality of many inbred species.
Again, in my opinion and pls correct me if I'm wrong. One is never too old to learn.

Line · Post by **Line** » 11 Dec 2007, 23:20

Hello

It is difficult, when most people somehow agree upon using things in a special way.

Most time I thought myself, that F1 was the first generation after wildcaught. (btw these are actually also F1's

)

Perhaps it is worth to notice the tiny little word "may":

From the Glossary (Help! in the toolbar)

F0 An original set of parents in a breeding program. May also refer to a wild-caught fish kept in captivity.

As far as I know, we have the parentalgeneration.
F1 are the children of the parentalgeneration (P).
F2 are the grandchildren of the parentalgeneration, but also a F1 of the F1 generation..
F3 are the grand-grand children of the parentalgeneration, and F2 of the F1 generation, and F1 of the F2 generation..

I think Mendel is responsibel of the mess here

It looks like, we can call the breeding whatever we want to - it is all depending on, who/what we declare as parentalgeneration.

Perhaps therefore, somebody invented an impression like "wildcaughtbred" - and this was the expression I was looking for in english. If it existed.

I wish I could find proper documentation in english, but perhaps somebody else know, where to look.

Best regards
Line

Dave Rinaldo · Post by **Dave Rinaldo** » 12 Dec 2007, 00:32

To me, there is only wild caught and tank (captive) bred

Mike_Noren · Post by **Mike_Noren** » 12 Dec 2007, 01:24

In genetics F1, F2 etc typically refer to subsequent generations of hybrid offspring obtained by crossing two purebred lineages or species.

The terms F1, F2 etc are in aquaristics used to indicate number of generations the fish have been in captivity, ie you have Wild Caught, and the first generation offspring are F1. People rarely if ever keep track beyond captive generation 2.

In short, there is a difference in terminology between the fields.

An interesting effect of the aquarian usage of the term is that F1's are actually no more inbred than WC's.