julii corys and the "why ?" of salt sensitivity ?

[apistomaster]

but I do use salt, and not in small amounts, when I have disease issues. I don't like to use pharmaceuticals much. I've avoided heavy salt treatment for tanks with catfish included as a minority, without having any solid evidence to support the fears. I would rather treat the whole tank than net some fish out for treatment, or have to leave corys for other treatments in another tank.

I don't think salt is all that effective in the treatment of specific diseases as the primary "medication." There are so many othe r drugs that target specific diseases better. High doses of salt are no less harmful than pharmaceuticals. It is so much like the divide between those who swear by homeopathatic medicine and those who trust in the more dominant, at least in developed countries, the state of modern medicine.
Whether we are talking in the context of fish or human beings it becomes a personal choice.
I think we all agree salt has its uses but that it is not the treatment of choice for specific diseases.

One area in fish keeping where salt is demonstrably useful is in raising some species of Killiefish fry. Nothobranchius spp and Aphyosemion striatum fry are extremely prone to velvet and velvet can kill fry very quickly compared to adult fish. It is wide spread practice to keep 1-1/2 tsp of salt per gallon in their grow out tanks. The adults are not as susceptible to velvet and salt can be omitted. However if one has very low TDS water it is a good idea to retain about 1 tsp/gal of salt with Nothobranchoius spp or raise the hardness and pH by other means since they come from harder water than rain forest killies. Killies,overcrowding and velvet go hand in hand and by not crowding the fry and keeping the water very fresh and clean, velvet becomes much less of a problem.

[raglanroad]

but I do use salt, and not in small amounts, when I have disease issues. I don't like to use pharmaceuticals much. I've avoided heavy salt treatment for tanks with catfish included as a minority, without having any solid evidence to support the fears. I would rather treat the whole tank than net some fish out for treatment, or have to leave corys for other treatments in another tank.

I don't think salt is all that effective in the treatment of specific diseases as the primary "medication."

this is not in agreement with the studies done.

There are so many other drugs that target specific diseases better.

SOME diseases, not many of the most common ones.not according to study anyway.

High doses of salt are no less harmful than pharmaceuticals.

salt is a specific. "So many that handle specific diseases" is not specific, nor have the diseases been specified. I also have no information showing how salt is harmful, whereas there are many studies showing "many" drugs may be.

It is so much like the divide between those who swear by homeopathatic medicine and those who trust in the more dominant, at least in developed countries, the state of modern medicine.

homeopathic meds lack certain reproduceable results. Salt doesn't lack that evidence , so your comparison is not cromulent.

Whether we are talking in the context of fish or human beings it becomes a personal choice.
I think we all agree salt has its uses but that it is not the treatment of choice for specific diseases.

These "specific" diseases are named. Ich is a specific disease, and responds to salt. This shows combination with salt is more effective

In order to evaluate the use of antibiotics and NaCl on the behavior and survival of silver catfish, Rhamdia quelen, infested by Ichthyophthirius multifiliis and infected with Aeromonas hydrophila, juveniles were treated with chloramphenicol, chloramphenicol + salt, oxytetracycline, oxytetracycline + salt and water alone (control). Fish survival in the treatments with chloramphenicol + salt and oxytetracycline + salt was significantly higher than in the other treatments. The treatment with chloramphenicol presented higher survival than the treatment with oxytetracycline and both showed significantly higher survival than control. Swimming activity was higher in the fish treated with antibiotics and salt compared to control fish. A combination of the studied antibiotics plus salt is more effective to treat both A. hydrophila infection and I. multifiliis infestation in silver catfish, but since the use of chloramphenicol is not allowed in Brazil, oxytetracycline plus salt seems to be the best treatment option.

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script= ... 6000300047

even chloramphenicl treatment is better with salt...doesn't that indicate something of interest ? ..chloramphenicol being about the heaviest artillery in the the med bag...
All evidence I've seen shows salt is good against a bunch of common diseases...and we must remember that correct ID procedure for disease is not the norm. Usually we have no real knowledge of which disease or combination of diseases are present.
That's just one other reason why I think salt is very good, and why I want specific information relating to experiences with various fish.
D

[apistomaster]

Chloramphenicol used to be my most valued antibiotic before Federal restrictions were increased to the point that for all intents and purposes it is not available for laymen purposes. There has never been another drug we fish keepers can obtain that is as effective against bacterial fish diseases as chloramphenicol. It is one I sorely miss. I used it with salt in treating Florida pond raised live bearers, especially Mollies. But it was in treating box lots of scrawny Cardinal Tetras that it really paid off. Losses were easily kept under 10% among Cardinals treated with Chloramphenicol, malachite green for Ich and fed a lot of newly hatched brine shrimp. It did not color or foam the water.

Too bad that chloramphenicol produces fatal aplastic aenemia in 1:40,000 human patients. This was why FDA placed greater restrictions on it. Most countries have done the same although in the developing world, $5.00 worth of chloramphenicol is the treatment of choice for bacterial menigitis. It crosses the blood/brain barrier easier than most antibiotics.

Tetracycline and Oxytetracycline have nearly become useless due to the development of drug resistant bacteria strains. These drugs decompose rapidly in aquarium water and form foams. Very unsightly mess and poor results.

[raglanroad]

have you seen this drug, Larry ?

http://fishweb.ifas.ufl.edu/Faculty%20P ... ol_Koi.pdf

[MatsP]

And a point to the original paper, which had a concentration of 2mmol of NaCl per liter - that's equivalent to 115 mg Salt per liter (== 115 ppm).

I just weighed a table-spoon of salt on my kitchen scales. That's 19g of salt. 1 tbsp per US gallon makes 19000 mg / 3.8 l - that is 5000 ppm - about 50 times stronger than the research paper. Even 1 tbsp per 10g is 5x more than the tested strength on the Corys in the first referred paper.

I realized this as I was mixing minerals with my RO water. I add about {1} 1 tbsp for a 40% water change on my RIO 400 (roughly 100 US gallon).

I don't actually measure the minerals, I just mix minerals with water to around 500 ppm in a bucket, and add a bit at a time along with RO water straight from the RO tanks. I keep my water at 100 ppm (give or take a couple of ppm).

Finally, I'm with Larry - salt is sometimes useful, but there are other medications that have less side-effects (not saying NO side-effects), and more effect on the intended illness. That's how I normally treat my fish - targetted medication for the illness.

--
Mats

[Mike_Noren]

http://www.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/SaltStressCatfish.htm
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script= ... 6000300047

I would just point out that the salinities mentioned in these two papers as optimal for channel catfish and silver catfish are very high; 10 parts per thousand (ppt) and 4 ppt respectively, and water with more than 0.5 ppt but lower than 30 ppt is considered brackish.
For comparison Lake Tanganyika salinity is about 0.6 ppt (most of which is sodium bicarbonate, not sodium chloride), and no aquarium plants will survive at salinities over about 3 ppt.

I would not recommend keeping Corydoras at such high salinities indefinitely; I would frankly be surprised if there were no long-term effects on their health.

[raglanroad]

And a point to the original paper, which had a concentration of 2mmol of NaCl per liter - that's equivalent to 115 mg Salt per liter (== 115 ppm).

I just weighed a table-spoon of salt on my kitchen scales. That's 19g of salt. 1 tbsp per US gallon makes 19000 mg / 3.8 l - that is 5000 ppm - about 50 times stronger than the research paper. Even 1 tbsp per 10g is 5x more than the tested strength on the Corys in the first referred paper.

I realized this as I was mixing minerals with my RO water. I add about {1} 1 tbsp for a 40% water change on my RIO 400 (roughly 100 US gallon).

I don't actually measure the minerals, I just mix minerals with water to around 500 ppm in a bucket, and add a bit at a time along with RO water straight from the RO tanks. I keep my water at 100 ppm (give or take a couple of ppm).

Finally, I'm with Larry - salt is sometimes useful, but there are other medications that have less side-effects (not saying NO side-effects), and more effect on the intended illness. That's how I normally treat my fish - targetted medication for the illness.

--
Mats

Mats, From the thousands of reported altum deaths after transport, I can tell you that not one single instance was properly investigated, according to my memory at least.

I'm not sure how anyone EVER was sure of the disease or diseases that were involved. Not even a member who is a medical doctor with good scope properly checked it out. We have heard of an importer had a scope or two of dead fish, showing costia in that instance, amongst other pathogens. Some suggest there is the look of columnaris or flexi.

How am I to treat this problem as you indicate is best done, through ID and appropriate medication, when there is no proper diagnostic evidence to tell me what is killing the fish ? It's all guess work.

Back to general fish care. If we are talking specifics in order to medicate, let's talk specific diseases rather than vague generalities.

Is it possible to pick at random, to name a few of the common external pathogens thought to be treatable with salt, where it is treated with pharmaceuticals more effectively, and with less of negative side effects, than with salt ? Of course, salt is not big magic for every ill.

Proper ID of the critters by hobbyists is a problem, but let's deal with the known facts first.

thanks,
Dave

[raglanroad]

http://www.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/SaltStressCatfish.htm
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script= ... 6000300047

I would just point out that the salinities mentioned in these two papers as optimal for channel catfish and silver catfish are very high; 10 parts per thousand (ppt) and 4 ppt respectively, and water with more than 0.5 ppt but lower than 30 ppt is considered brackish.
For comparison Lake Tanganyika salinity is about 0.6 ppt (most of which is sodium bicarbonate, not sodium chloride), and no aquarium plants will survive at salinities over about 3 ppt.

I would not recommend keeping Corydoras at such high salinities indefinitely; I would frankly be surprised if there were no long-term effects on their health.

I'm missing the part that says those were optimal maintainance salinities, Mike. I'll look again.

I see that

Little or no effect on ichthyophthiriasis in rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss) could be attributed to chloramphenicol and oxytetracycline (WAHLI et al., 1993). However, MIRON et al. (2003) verified that 4g/L sodium chloride reduces I. multifiliis infestation and increases survival of silver catfish juveniles. Therefore, the lower mortality of silver catfish treated with chloramphenicol and oxytetracycline compared to control indicate that these antibiotics are effective to treat A. hydrophila infection. Moreover, the combination of antibiotics plus salt caused an even lower...

Mike said

I would just point out that the salinities mentioned in these two papers as optimal for channel catfish and silver catfish are very high

Nope, can't find where any suggestion is given for optimal long term maintainance at those salinities.

The other paper is for transport, but it does give a statement of fact, not recommendation, as to some of the conditions actually existing in some lagoon farming of channel cats.
Dave

[Mike_Noren]

Instead of getting stuck on my unfortunate use of the word "optimal", you should look at the fact that they use high salinity as a means of lessening osmotic stress on the fish. It's not a big stretch to think that a salinity which makes the fish recover more quickly by reducing energy spent on fighting osmotic pressure, is also a salinity which would have the fish growing faster and breeding more.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they do. I would also be surprised if their kidney and liver do not take damage in the long run.

Anecdotal: I've successfully treated Corydoras schultzei for columnaris with salt bath and antibiotics (10 ppt for a week), kept C. paleatus for six months in a brackish tank (about 2-3 ppt salinity), and an assortment of Corydoras and an Aspidoras for a year in very hard borderline brackish (about 0.5 - 1 ppt) water. No noticeable ill effects.

This suggests that callichthyids are NOT particularly sensitive to salt, neither to high salinities in the short run, nor to low salinities in the long run.

[raglanroad]

Instead of getting stuck on my unfortunate use of the word "optimal"

I was not stuck on the word "optimal", I was thinking about "long term maintainance", and found that those papers suggested nothing.

you should look at the fact that they use high salinity as a means of lessening osmotic stress on the fish. It's not a big stretch to think that a salinity which makes the fish recover more quickly by reducing energy spent on fighting osmotic pressure, is also a salinity which would have the fish growing faster and breeding more.

OK, I'll go along with this reasoning, though I do not think anyone was suggesting maintainance at high salinity for corys. High salinty" should be defined. Are you talking about channel cats ?

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they do. I would also be surprised if their kidney and liver do not take damage in the long run.

I just don't see where it is suggested or implied that the fish be kept in high salinity. Food fish are grown for a specific purpose, and that is growth, not necessarily "best colour or health or fitness", and their ultimate4 end is for human consumption, so their farm conditions and meds and treatments are not necessarily what we would aim for.

Anecdotal: I've successfully treated Corydoras schultzei for columnaris with salt bath and antibiotics (10 ppt for a week), kept C. paleatus for six months in a brackish tank (about 2-3 ppt salinity), and an assortment of Corydoras and an Aspidoras for a year in very hard borderline brackish (about 0.5 - 1 ppt) water. No noticeable ill effects.

This suggests that callichthyids are NOT particularly sensitive to salt, neither to high salinities in the short run, nor to low salinities in the long run.

Thanks very much, Mike. That's interesting information.

Dave