Madagaskar Cats, are they kept?

[sidguppy]

that's the question.

there are a fair number of cichlids kept from Madagaskar; Paretroplus, Paratilapia, Ptyochromis and the like.
and even some Rainbowfish like Bedotia spp

but the catfishes? have they ever been imported or are they protected by environmental laws or something?

the reason for this question is that I'm really seriously thinking about stopping with Tanganyika and starting Madagaskar.
but catfishes are a must of course.

[Richard B]

I've not encoutered them or seen them on any supplier/importer lists - this is disappointing as Gogo looks a cool & interesting species - did you see the pic in this thread (below) Sid?

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/down ... &mode=view
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 14&t=23048

Madagascan c*****ds are something special, but mostly hard to come by there are good exhibits in bronx zoo (NY) & blue planet (UK) or at least there were last time i was there. I wish you every success if you do switch Sid.

[sidguppy]

In Europe there's a fair number of Madagaskarian cichlids available and a number of species are bred in captivity.

there's a very good breeder/importer just over the border in Germany; Tilmann

he's got a tank full of Paretroplus maculatus and he can get other species as well.
Paratilapia polleni are available at Verduijns' place here in NL, but paratilapia's are very very agressive. although they look nice enough, I think I'd rather go for a single or maybe 2 species of Paretroplus, for example P maculatus or P menarambo (not together as they look a lot alike, maybe they can hybridize) and the very different but extremely pretty P loiselli or Katria katria or a Ptyochromis species

a group of Gogo spp would really top it off.

they would -if I pull this stunt- all be housed in a 1200L tank (about 315G) and there will not be more than 2 or 3 cichlid species in there, 1 catfish species and 1 species of Rainbowfish, depending on size and taste of the other fishes; I don't want to use Bedotia as feeders, these are very nice looking too and I know Bedotia's, they dwell in the top layer of the tank.

we're talking about 4, max 5 species of fish in that tank and all of them in groups.

[Marc van Arc]

the reason for this question is that I'm really seriously thinking about stopping with Tanganyika and starting Madagaskar.
but catfishes are a must of course.

What does this mean with regard to your Synodontis granulosus?

[sidguppy]

welll, if I can get Gogo they have to Go I think

but until then I keep them.

Madagaskar has the same waterparameters as my tapwater (!!), so the only thing I have to do is to remove the calciumcarbonate from my biofilter

Tanganyika: DH 11-14, KH 10 and up, pH 7,9-9

Madagaskar: DH 12, KH 7, pH 7,8-8

My tapwater: DH 11, KH 6, pH 8

I don't think the granny's will mind the lil adaptation to make the tank a wee bit more like Madagaskar and a wee bit less than Tanganyika. they're strong.

I'm still not a 100% out on this plan about switching, but IF I switch and can get native catfishes, it's a whole change in biotope.

yup, gonna loose a whopper in already spent cash, but that's the least of my concerns. finding a new good home for all the fish involved will be a much bigger challenge

[zenyfish]

All the pictures of gogo and ancharius are from Silurus, maybe he could give you a lead?

[Birger]

Hi Sid
I have yet to hear of anyone keeping them, as mentioned maybe HH would know of someone.
I have been collecting information on these myself lately, and there is not that much out there, but I as well, would clear out all my tanks if I had a chance to get some, I do not think they are for everyone some being fair sized but I am glad to see someone else get excited about these. Some good info. on habitat and distribution is in the recent descriptions.

Madagaskar: DH 12, KH 7, pH 7,8-8

These come from mostly highland clear running streams with sand and gravel and boulders so the water parameters needed may be slightly different, and cooler but I would have to have a look..

One of the more interesting things I have read on these in the recent description (by HH and others)of Gogo atratus it is mentioned they have small amounts of large eggs(about 50)so it is thought that there is some kind of parental care.

You may have to go on a trip to get some of these yourself if you want some, pictures are rare enough. The G.atratus habitat is within a reserve so it is hard to say if some could be collected there, I would have to check on the others, and from what I have been reading it is not necessarily the safest place when you go off the beaten path...but it still would be pretty cool.

Birger

[sidguppy]

One of the more interesting things I have read on these in the recent description (by HH and others)of Gogo atratus it is mentioned they have small amounts of large eggs(about 50)so it is thought that there is some kind of parental care.

this does not surprise me
AFAIK the Anchariidae have Ariidae ancestors. it's in fact a "tertiary" (does the term exist?) freshwaterfish; catfish originated in freshwater biotopes, some migrated to marine biotopes and this group is supposed to have re-entered the fresh water biotope again.

many -if not all? - Ariidae are mouthbrooding catfishes and thus have parental care.
for a mediumsized catfish (7-12" depending on being Gogo or Ancharius) that does mouthbreed eggs 50 isn't a weird number.
even the tiny 3.5" Phyllonemus can incubate well up to 25 eggs and these fish are 3 times that size.

I just checked sizes of all known Anchariidae and with a range of 7-12" in length they could be perfect for any sizeable fishtank.

mine's a 315 gallons.....keeping a modest group of even the largest species should be possible unless they're extremely territorial, protected by law or very fragile.

[Bas Pels]

it's in fact a "tertiary" (does the term exist?) freshwaterfish; catfish originated in freshwater biotopes, some migrated to marine biotopes and this group is supposed to have re-entered the fresh water biotope again.

As primary freshwater fishes we know fishes which never adapted to sea water. They inhabited freshwater before the seas became as salty as they are now (currently seawater is 1000 mOsmol, life is adapted to 300 mOsmol, therefore science assumes the seas used to be 1/3 as salty as they are now)

Secundairy freshwater fishes are these which decended from fishes inhabiting the sea when it became salty. Examples are lifebrearers, killy's cichlids

As these Gogo cats are obviously none of the above, the term terniary would, I think, suit them best

[Birger]

I just checked sizes of all known Anchariidae and with a range of 7-12" in length they could be perfect for any sizeable fishtank.

In Endemic Cichlids of Madagascar....it is reported of a sighting of a Vahona close to 150 cm at Ambatopotsy, on the Nosivolo River
Also states that according to the native people the Vahona incubate their eggs in the oral cavity.

Birger

[sidguppy]

but that fish with the native name would be a real Ariidae catfish with that size

i was checking Anchariidae, cause all the Ariids get very large. IMO not really suitable as aquariumfish, not counting brackish indoor swimming pools.....

[Birger]

but that fish with the native name would be a real Ariidae catfish with that size

There is still a lot to be learned about these fish so I would not assume too much, I wa just throwing out the little bit of info there is, they were talking specifically about Anchariidae, and they have been around Madagascar enough...but they are a couple of cichlid guys and it wouldn't be the first time a book was wrong... I would prefer you to be correct and I myself would not think the highland cats would get any larger than the stated sizes.

Birger

[sidguppy]

hell, I was just goin by what is known and put in the catelog.....

all species in there are 30 cm/1 foot or smaller

if there are 5 foot cats from the Anchariidae, looks like the catelog needs an overhaul on that 1 at least!


uhoh

I really hope I won't fall in that pit.....getting an extremely rare chance to buy a never imported catfish and ending up with the Malagasy version of the Red Tail

that would suck big time. oh yes.

[sidguppy]

another question, one for the experts:
there's all kinds of rumours floating around that Madagascar has banned the export of live fish, but agreeed to the export of dead fish....

is this true? would be a shame, really, cause it would be impossible for us to keep and hopefully breed Gogo or Ancharius, but it WOULD allow for getting these species extinct by still catching them for food and the influence of exotics.

[Richard B]

Hey Sid,

Have you been on this site? http://www.madagascarfish.org/index.html

One of the ID's contradicts an image HH shared in a different thread......???

[Silurus]

That ID must've been given before we decided it was (then) undescribed.
BTW, the Ampisika "Gogo" is probably Ancharius fuscus.

[sidguppy]

well, that's good to know

unfortunately the news I received from the people at AFC and the Madagroup isn't that good;
it's confirmed by them that it's almost or entirely impossible to get native fishes alve from the island
maybe if you're Loiselle or De Rham himself or Alexei Saunders, but apart from these people I don't see much chances of native catfishes getting the green light for export.

that also answers the question of my current Tanganyiklan catfishes; they're to stay! the granny's definitely in the showtank.
maybe the Phyllonemus in there too. they're doing great so far and as we all know Phyllonemus is remarkably easygoing.
if I remove the P typus to another tank, the whole question of removing Tanganyika catfishes from the house is academic because my 200L and 300L tanks are strictly Tanganyika tanks and I have no intention of changing that. plenty room in either tank for 3 p typus.

the fish I have in mind to add are Damba's (Paretroplus maculatus or p menarambo), Tsypoi or Garaka (Ptychochromis spp) and perhaps Lamena's (Paretroplus nourissatti)
the final plan is to have 2 or maybe 3 cichlidspecies in there and a maximum of 2 catfish species.

I plan to keep 1 omnivorous/herbivorous species in a shoal (Damba's), 1 species as a pair or maybe 2 pairs of the same species that are a bit more sandchewers (Ptychochromis) and perhaps the Lamena's as a third
chances of getting Lamena's are rare, in Europe these are only around in very limited numbers.

I checked the waterparameters and even the fishes that live in different water seem to have no problem with adapting to bit more hardiness. Nourissat even bred his fishes in the Souther France inland wich is known for it's exemely high hardiness.
the entire inland of Southern France like the Central Massif is chalciferous rocks and you can club someone senseless with the water there.
there's a bunch of highly experienced Madafish breeders in that region that keep their fish in clean tapwater!

got contact with Philippe Hotton as well, thanks to him i was pointed to the English version of the book about the endemic cichlids of Madagascar.
took me less than a week to get hold of it myself after that
there are 2 pictures of catfishes in there, Arius madagascariensis. a catfish with very nice pattern and yellowish orange fins.

most of the Tanganyikan cichlids are already sold, I also managed to find a new home for my moori eel and a while ago for my Labeo cylindricus.
currently I'm looking for a new home for my Xenotilapia's. the halfgrown frontosa group goes when I have my Mada's.
otherwise I'll be looking at an empty tank.....

[sidguppy]

some attempts on pictures:

a detail of my Madagascar tank (not all fishes are Madafish)


Paretroplus maculatus group


Paretroplus maculatus and Ptychochromis grandidieri

[Richard B]

It looks fantastic Sid, i've always fancied keeping paretroplus but not got round to it, however i can admire your pics now

I really hope that something changes & you can get some cats, i really do - keep us posted.

I do see mada- c****ids from time to time in the uk, Mostly Ptychochromis & Paratilapia (i've kept both large & small spot,[polleni/bleekeri]) but yours look the way they should: big group in a big tank - what size are they now? How many of each specie do you have?

Top job

[sidguppy]

the whole list of fish in the tank:
5 Synodontis granulosus 2/3
3 Phyllonemus typus 1/2
6 Cyphotilapia gibberosa (syn C frontosa) "Zambia Blue's" 2/4
2 Ptychochromis grandidieri 1/1
11 Paretroplus maculatus. no idea who's what.

the grandidieri and the largest Paretroplus approach 4-5" or so, the smallest are 2.5".
maybe I will add more grandidieri if they settle. I can get a few more at the shop where I bought these.

the "frontosa's" are planned to go when the Mada's grow larger, but they are very mellow, so for now they can stay
my original plan was to put in 3 cichlidspecies with Paratilapia polleni as the third species. but several experienced Mada fish keepers told me that Paratilapia is likely too agressive for Ptychochromis and Paretroplus both.

it's also a very efficient piscivore. and I do hope there will be fry. Paratilapia's are the most common of the Madagascar cichlid species, the rest is quite to extremely rare.
another reason to skip on paratilapia is the plan to add a shoal of Bedotia geayi once the fronts are gone. these are very lively topswimmers and make excellent dithers, not to mention they are a very pretty species too. I got a small group as dithers in one of my smaller tanks.

[Richard B]

the whole list of fish in the tank:
my original plan was to put in 3 cichlidspecies with Paratilapia polleni as the third species. but several experienced Mada fish keepers told me that Paratilapia is likely too agressive for Ptychochromis and Paretroplus both. it's also a very efficient piscivore. and I do hope there will be fry. .............. plan to add a shoal of Bedotia geayi once the fronts are gone. these are very lively topswimmers and make excellent dithers, not to mention they are a very pretty species too. I got a small group as dithers in one of my smaller tanks.

Nice plans for the future.

I can echo the points you post about paratilapia - they can be quite aggressive when space is at a premium & are voraciuos feeders, consuming anything they can fit in their mouths - although that said they are quick enough to learn not to try & eat any catfish with sharp bony spines (like s.polli). I probably wouldn't trust them with the typus though.

[sidguppy]

Let us not forget my good ol' "tank jewels", who are still doing just fine

they don't mind the wood at all, guess the presence of several pounds of crushed marble in my biofilter keeps the water just fine.

this one looks oddly stubby, but it's becvause i had to angle the camera in order to avoid the flash reflecting.


my old female

[Richard B]

ah, the creme-de-la-creme

[syno321]

Sid, have you had any luck with your "tank jewels" yet?

[sidguppy]

nope

a few years ago there were several nightly spawns in the -then 500L- showtank.

no eggs were left, all were eaten, no fry occured
I've tried to separate them and spawn them in a smaller breeding tank, but the only result was the largest female tearing up the males.

to save the fish I stopped trying breeding attempts as I do not have the resources or the room to house several tanks and keep the fishes in a fishfriendly way in a tank of their own.
there's simply no place, my house is too small.

i succeeded in breeding several smaller species including a few Synodontis species. but spawning the granny would need a number of bigger tanks (at least 3-5 300L tanks, and I cannot place those tanks.

so I will not try again to breed this fish. it wouldn't work in the limited space that I have. my house is really tiny (only 2 rooms, kitchen included), and it's too full already.

[sidguppy]

how tame are my new fish?


very!

[sidguppy]

update:
all fish are doing fine, including the damii

a while ago I discovered something; Malagasy fish go absolutely berserk on insekts......

my other animal-related hobby includes the keeping and breeding of several tarantula, scorpion, huntsman spider, cockroach, phasmids and other invertebrates.

now I do have a number of spiders but they can't eat up with the prolific breeding of the roaches.
so as an experiment i fed a bunch of them to my fish.
I can do this because i breed my own and know what they eat, wich is well washed fruit, vegetables, catfood and the like. no toxins. it's safe

the fish went WILD! berserk! especially the Paratilapia's and Ptychochromis go in a total feeding frenzy when I feed them with insects

anyone else want to try this, I feed the following species with good results:
Nauphoeta cinerea (a roach)
Blaptica dubia (roach)
small nimphs of Byrsotria rothi (roach)
Grillus bimaculatus (prairie cricket)

if you have catfishes that feed on the surface, you want to try this out! my granny's do and they too feed on them.
unfortunately all these bugs float very well, so only surface feeding or handfeedable catfish can profit from this.

but IMO medium large Auchenipterids, Synodontis, medium large Pimelodids, Bragrids and the like would really eat this.